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    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    Porschist said:
    So what is the best technological feat in my opinion? The AMG unit of course. Am I banging my head? Yes, and very hard, against the wall. Because I tried, and I tried. But I can't see why I would want to sacrifice 2000rpm for 80hp more, and less torque.



    First of all,I'd like to say that you just had really bad luck.Porsche build very reliable engines.It sometimes doesn't seem to be true but that's because you don't hear about every single engine failure of Opels,Skodas or Peugeots.

    You can't simply ignore the fact that the Carrera GT engine is a 5.7L and that the AMG V8 is a 6.2L engine.Compare the 6.2L to the 7.3L AMG V12 and you'll see that the 6.2L is actually pretty weak.

    Torque and power are proportional to displacement.That's why many racing series have displacement limits.

    In F1 they are now using 2.4L V8's.Last year they were allowed to use 3L V10's.Needless to say the 2.4L engines had more than 200hp less than the 3L engines.

    There was a team that was allowed to use a rev limited 3L V10.At the beginning of the season the V10 that was supposed to have less power than the V8 was still the better engine.It was more reliable(they actually didn't have a single engine problem in the whole season),it had more torque(logically) and it had a better consumption.I don't think that Cosworth is a better engine manufacturer than BMW,Ferrari,Honda or Renault so all these advantages must come from the bigger displacement.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    xandi911 said:
    the GT3 engine is the same GT1 engine that is used in the turbo? off course adaptaded.... or TOTALLY DIFFERENT?
    if different.... wich one is stronger?like more resistent.



    To make it easier for you to understand: the 997 Turbo engine is basically a GT3 engine with turbo chargers.
    Simply speaking...of course the 997 Turbo engine has been re-enforced to withstand higher pressures, etc.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    Porschist said:
    The AMG v8 unit in the CL63 amg:
    -gives 525hp at 6800 rpm and 465 lb/ft of torque at 5200rpm
    -It's is made by Mercedes and installed on lardy sedans
    and SUVs.
    -It is said to be still at a relatively untuned state, Amg having publicly stated many times the engine has a lot of room to grow, and has a very broad and even spread of torque.

    The Carrera GT v10, on the other side:
    -gives 605hp at 8000rpm and 437 lb/ft of torque at 5750 rpm
    -That's 80 more hp than the output of the Amg units at a whopping 2250 more rpm.
    -It is developed by the leading performance car manufacturer in the world and could hardly be used on anything but an extreme performance car (cant really tow a boat behind your suv can't it, unless you want to drop the clutch at 5000rpm but then it'll be a short trip)
    -It has a relatively peaky delivery curve and I really doubt the Porsche engineers left a lot of hps on the table given this was installed on the no expense spared, showcase model.



    Poor comparison. This AMG engine weighs ludicrous amounts with a high center of gravity, and when mounted in the front, I don't think that could possibly compare to a refine race engine with low center of gravity and low weight such as the CGTs...

    I agree with many of your points but I'll address them in the subsequent post:

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Porschist, I agree with many of your comments. It is frustrating to see Porsche, a brand that I love for their engineering stance on mechanical perfection, fall into profit gouging from corporate mangement.

    Why did I, like many fellow rennteamers become such Porsche fans? For me, it wasn't the unique 911 physique. It wasn't the slick advertising of the 80s. For me, Porsche stood for mechanical perfection. They took a flawed setup (RR) and refined and tuned and altered it until its setup was better than the rest. It's comperable to the very notion of motorsports (mechanical refinement).

    In a certain perspective, I love the fact that Porsche doesn't release gimmicky SMGs with e-diffs. I love how they refine the clutch, the chassis and the diff with a refined engine body to create a harmonic product that is unique in the market segment.

    But on the other hand, I am not a luddite. Look at the sheer capital other companies are investing in their technologies to lure us:

    Ferrari 430- Gorgeous and powerful v8 that wails, producing excellent power and an intoxicating exhaust note, refined F1 tranny (perhaps the best in the business), e-diff, manetinno, rear diffusor etc etc. The strands it shares with the 360 Modena are based upon heritage rather than upgrade.

    Gallardo- robust v10, brand new refined chassis, refine e-gear that rivals if not bests the f1, gorgeous exhaust note, completely brand new technology across the board
    R8- much the same

    911 Turbo- same body with minor exaggerated upgrades, same engine with new "turbine technology", same basic chassis, anemic exhaust note...

    --------

    It's tough to rationalize the direction by Porsche. It is clearly profit gouging. I mean, if Porsche could build such a robust and powerful GT1 block decades ago , you would think they could make something extrordinary today . Why don't they?

    Once Porsche's consumer base starts asking this question, it will start rolling downhill for PAG. Hopefully they are on top of this and ammasing these ludicrous amounts of profit for the benefit of its customer base in the future...

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    The comparison may be not as poor as you think, if my data is reliable at least:
    -Amg 6.2 unit weighs about 439 lbs.
    -The Carrera v10 engine is 472 lbs.
    -Center of gravity for the two engines is actually comparable.
    -Actually, horizontal axis polar momentum (another important metric affecting car dynamics - since you care to bring the subject up - and at times as important as C.o.G. since a race car may rotate on its vertical axis more periliously than it rotates on the horizontal one*) is far higher in the v10 because the v10 is quite longer. In a mid engine car this may matter less because the engine stays inside the wheels where there is less impact from polar momentum of inertia, but it's a good rule in car dynamics that the engine should be as low and as short as possible.

    The center of gravity for the whole car is of course lower in the Carrera gt than in an ML63 or CL 63. And yes, these cars are not mid engined.
    But that is function of car design, not engine design. And again, as I mentioned, I think they are now short changing us on the engine design side. Porsche chassis are dynamically as good as they could be (or there wouln't be any reason left for us to part with our cash I guess). But I pay for a cutting edge car and i only get a cutting edge chassis. One could say that's indeed what being short changed means. That's my point.

    *Before you say I am contradicting myself here note that I am not quoting terms in reverse; Polar Momentum affecting the Horizontal axis of the engine will, unfortunately, move the car around the car's vertical axis (make it rotate). Hence the apparent contratiction.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Porschist, it's painfully obvious that you're not a fan of Porsche while a majority of us here are.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Fan enough to shell out the purchase price for a 997 TT with ceramic brakes. And for a 997 Carrera S prior to that. And for a 996 C2 prior. And for a 993 C2 prior to that....

    I am just realist. Right now am I am questioning some practices and wondering wether or not they are going to rest on their laurels and let the competition pass by with better engines. If they keep losing ground though I might considering putting my loyalties elsewhere. And relieve you of my sovversive postings in the process. Early to say I guess.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    Porschist said:
    Fan enough to shell out the purchase price for a 997 TT with ceramic brakes. And for a 997 Carrera S prior to that. And for a 996 C2 prior. And for a 993 C2 prior to that....

    I am just realist.



    964 to 993 : progress 22 BHP
    993 to 993 mk2 : progress 14 BHP
    993 to 996 : progress 14 BHP
    996 to 996 mk2 : progress 20 BHP
    996 mk2 to 997S : progress 35 BHP

    964 turbo to 964 turbo 3.6 : progress 40 BHP
    964 turbo 3.6 to 993 turbo : progress 48 BHP
    993 turbo to 996 turbo : progress 12 BHP
    996 turbo to 997 turbo : progress 60 BHP

    All 911's always did more with less HP compared to the competition , nothing new.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Porschist, you may have to wait until hell freezes over for a all new Porsche sports car motor.

    It would be nice to see a 9000 rpm Porsche flat 8 made with the latest technologies in materials and controls, but I don't think they will ever do it. The cost of development versus unit sales wouldn't produce a ROI that meets Porsches hockey stick standards if marketed at a price point similar to todays models. Cheap and Stubborn? Maybe not. More like fat, dumb and happy.

    The 911 package is so unique in its handling, feel and overall dynamics that Porsche can make do with engine evolution and not revolution. Fortunately "making do" for Porsche means class leading accelleration and top speed.
    So forgive their infallibility if one engine goes tits up every now and then.

    Want a basso, ripping canvas exhaust note from a VTG Turbo engine? Guess again. The VTG Turbo engine was re designed to be quieter and the VTG system enhances those goals. If you like aggressive noise you will have to suffer and get a humble 997 GT3 or a used 996TT.

    Dont get your hopes up for the Audi R8. Audis DNA when it comes to handling dynamics has always featured novocaine over amphetamines. The R8 will not be a Audi Luxus 906. It will just be another Audi and softer than the Gallardo from wich it was born from. Sound better than a 997TT? Sure.

    Will the R8 drive better? Probably more like a Gallardo with Boge comfort shocks.


    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Porschist, could the problem be the way YOU are driving the car instead of the engines? Just a thought.

    I have the same cars as you do, a 997TT, a ML63, I also have a CLS55 and all 3 are sharing my garage atm.

    I do not consider the 63 engine nor the 55 engine cutting edge, sure the 63 engine is brand new design from AMG, but it has the lowest output/liter and to me it feels like the 60's American muscle car engines, it's a powerful engine BECAUSE it's the BIGGEST, not the most advanced.

    WEIGHT and HP both matters in performance speak, for other cars to get close to 997TT's performance, they will NEED more HP if they weight more than the TT. There is no need for Porsche to do 500HP if 480HP is already good enough to set the benchmark. M5's and Mercedes 55's and 63's NEED 500+HP because they weight 4000+lb and in the case of ML63 5000+lb.

    Get over it, sh1t happens and it happened on you, twice, sucks to be you. On the contrary you are not a realist, you may THINK you are one but you are not. You are just bitter that sh1t happens to you twice and trying to find a way out.

    V8 R8 is meant to be a competitor to the lesser 911's, not the Turbo, but I guess the Turbo is too much car for you and a lesser car might fits you better.

    None of the cars you mentioned up to this point are better competitors but if thinking that way makes you feel good then what can I say, whatever floats your boat.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    It would be nice to see a 9000 rpm Porsche flat 8 made with the latest technologies in materials and controls, but I don't think they will ever do it. The cost of development versus unit sales wouldn't produce a ROI that meets Porsches hockey stick standards if marketed at a price point similar to todays models. Cheap and Stubborn? Maybe not. More like fat, dumb and happy.





    The problem is that this approach is unsustainable. The Turbo may have a lot more breathing room due to its forced induction, but the other 911s are hitting an eventalizing point; the displacement is growing too much for the flat six.

    Something is going to have to break and I think they need to start investing in a new flat 8...

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Why is everyone out to crucify porschist? Seems like adding insult to injury. I too would be upset should my turbo lunch the motor at 6k km. All the statistics don't matter when you are the one affected.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    101 hp per liter for the M5. No biggy.

    7 years ago the Modena was already putting out a naturally aspirated 110.15 bhp per litre.
    111.54 bhp per litre for the 2004 Challenge Stradale.
    114 hp per litre for the F430.

    I didn't get the "Porsche 4,5-litre V8 was made by Audi" either.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Hopefully he gets a replacement engine with TT S horsepower...:-)A much bttter than average engine for his troubles... Good luck porschist..

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Hurst, maybe now you will understand why I have had concerns regarding Porsche. Porschist posts are unraveling the Ponzi scheme that Porsche has created in selling the latest rendition of the 911.

    Porsche artfully has exploited the perception and aura of unparalleled engineering with bullet proof reliability. The truth is from this perception. I have stated before and will continue to state that once this waive of Porschephiles satisfy their itch for a Porsche, they as well as their children will look elsewhere for their driving pleasure.

    Porsche is nothing special and there are many good substitutes.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    nberry said:Porsche artfully has exploited the perception and aura of unparalleled engineering with bullet proof reliability. The truth is from this perception.



    When the 911's require "engine-out" maintenance every 5-7k miles then we will call you the Prophet. Until then, you are just the Joker.


    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!


    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    Porschist said:
    -Center of gravity for the two engines is actually comparable.




    I'm no mechanical engineer, but I have serious doubts about the validity of this statement. Nevertheless, if you have documentation/an explanation, that would be much appreciated

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Hurst, maybe now you will understand why I have had concerns regarding Porsche. Porschist posts are unraveling the Ponzi scheme that Porsche has created in selling the latest rendition of the 911.

    Porsche artfully has exploited the perception and aura of unparalleled engineering with bullet proof reliability. The truth is from this perception. I have stated before and will continue to state that once this waive of Porschephiles satisfy their itch for a Porsche, they as well as their children will look elsewhere for their driving pleasure.

    Porsche is nothing special and there are many good substitutes.



    It's not as black and white as you make it out nberry, but there are sadly, shades of truth in your argument. Porsche is clearly gouging its customer base on some level, simply because a refined 993-->996-->997 sells so well! It's based upon the car's presitge/motorsports history/pedigree etc... How sustainable this is, I'm not sure, but I agree with you on one thing:

    When Ferrari puts out a car, I get the feeling that they pulled out all the tricks in their bag to put as much as they can into the product. In the past (308s etc...), their inferior engineering really led to a poor product, but at least you know it was the best their engineers could viably offer. Now, the company really is churning out some beauts (430 especially).

    I personally get the sense that Porsche isn't exactly pulling out all the stops, but sticking to more of a business plan in some of their production . I'm not so mad at a delayed PDK (I understand the technological leapforward that it takes to shift: no more mechanical lock diff, everything has to be electronic and thus it has to achieve quality control and a level of pedigree at least comperable to its predecessor. We know that Ferrari didn't really go that route. 355 F1s and 360 F1s that were the "guinea pigs" of the F430 (yea right Formula 1 team) were hardly anything special) as I am things like the engine.

    I think the whole debate about the GT1 block (which by the way is a far superior engine than the M97/6 that we see in the "lowly" base 911s!) is emblematic of Porsche's disregard, in a sense, of its customer base. ESPECIALLY the American customer base. Things like the lack of sunroof delete options on GT3s...it's as if they think we don't know better

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Since you brought up statistics, I keep wondering what is the probabaility of one porsche owner to have 2 blown engines? Do you care to share with us couple pictures of your 997TT?

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    if the GT3 with 3.6 liter produces 415 hp aspirated...

    imagine the GT3 engine with 6.2 liters!?!(comparing HP/L 714 hp! )


    and you really think that the AMG V8 6.2 liter is MODERN?

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Porschist makes some good points, I think. If you look back over the history of the 911 it always did more with 'less' but with a solidity and quality that others failed to match. I have the feeling that Porsche has milked that reputation with the recent series cars. The number of 'niggles' we all mention on this site plus the few but serious failures such as engines/RMS hurt Porsche's reputation increasingly over time. The irritating thing is we know that they can do better-but they don't because they can get away with it.

    The 997 series was a perceived quality step ahead of the 996 and probably looks better (older??). But underneath I have my doubts that the 997 is any stronger, better engineered or more reliable than a 996.To prove the point look how many of us would be reluctant to keep any 997 beyond the warranty period?


    Porsche can and should do better. Porsche can make the series 997 lighter, faster and punch even more above its weight but they choose not to because of marketing. OK. But the competition gets closer and closer so it can't go on for ever. Why shouldn't X51 and aluminium doors be standard on a 997. Because they are reserved for the expensive cars. OK but if they raised the standard of the TT and GT3 still further then the series cars would be even better. It's because the company is now driven by marketing not ao much by engineers. The gap between Porsche and the rest is closer than ever-see next M3-and Porsche needs to put some of its deserved profit back into the cars so that fewer engines fail, fewer cars rattle and in particular their are less problems with the complex electronics they give us.


    Porsche not only needs to invest more in its products to stay ahead but also needs to put back some of that 'bomb proof' quality for which they were once famous.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    The standard Carrera should have the S engine and the S version should describe the X51 engine. The Turbo, however, is powerful enough.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    The thing that concerns me most about the 911 is the perception of the car in about 2 years when the all new 8 cyl Ferrari is out. It's not going to be a version of the F430 it will be an all new car and you can bet it will be absolutely kick ass............. Afterwards it is my guess that you will see the biggest change ever for Porsche and the next 911. Time flies I think it's going to be interesting to start hearing rumours & seeing pictures of what the new Ferrari & Porsche will be like. Now that's going to be exciting !

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    Porschist said:
    Yes, engine broke down on my June delivery 997 Turbo at just over 6000 kilometers. Now waiting for a new engine from Germany. Quite a disappointment as you can imagine, also because this makes the second time a Porsche leaves me stranded on the same bit of autostrada (I owned a C2 996 which suffered engine bearings failure at 70.000km. Porsche paid for a new engine then, although it was well out of warranty).
    Not sure which component(s) failed because Porsche doesn't want the dealer to open the engine (they have to ship it to the factory) but it sounds like the usual suspects (a rod or bearing failure in the dry sumped block which has been the weak point of this engine since Porsche went to liquid cooled). The epicenter of the noise is the area of the last two cilyinders (1 and 2 I think it is, the two closer to the bumber to be clear). Porsche gotta start investing the money it makes off of us into updating this old block rather than buying stakes in Wolksvagens and rebadging its cars. Funny this happened while I was driving to put a deposit on an April delivery r8. It was meant to be a second sports car, not a replacement for the Turbo, and hence I was questioning whether it made sense as a purchase given it won't touch the Turbo for torque or power. Now I am glad I did.



    Sad news sorry to hear that

    I have the similar problem with my Gallardo, there is a noise coming from the cranck, Lamborghini service come to Istanbul and inspected it. I waited for goodwill warranty but unfortunately my first and second service not done by official service because there is no official L service in Turkey so they reject it. I have to pay xxk usd for a new engine.

    You are lucky to have warranty

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    VGA18 said:
    Quote:
    Porschist said:
    Yes, engine broke down on my June delivery 997 Turbo at just over 6000 kilometers. Now waiting for a new engine from Germany. Quite a disappointment as you can imagine, also because this makes the second time a Porsche leaves me stranded on the same bit of autostrada (I owned a C2 996 which suffered engine bearings failure at 70.000km. Porsche paid for a new engine then, although it was well out of warranty).
    Not sure which component(s) failed because Porsche doesn't want the dealer to open the engine (they have to ship it to the factory) but it sounds like the usual suspects (a rod or bearing failure in the dry sumped block which has been the weak point of this engine since Porsche went to liquid cooled). The epicenter of the noise is the area of the last two cilyinders (1 and 2 I think it is, the two closer to the bumber to be clear). Porsche gotta start investing the money it makes off of us into updating this old block rather than buying stakes in Wolksvagens and rebadging its cars. Funny this happened while I was driving to put a deposit on an April delivery r8. It was meant to be a second sports car, not a replacement for the Turbo, and hence I was questioning whether it made sense as a purchase given it won't touch the Turbo for torque or power. Now I am glad I did.



    Sad news sorry to hear that

    I have the similar problem with my Gallardo, there is a noise coming from the cranck, Lamborghini service come to Istanbul and inspected it. I waited for goodwill warranty but unfortunately my first and second service not done by official service because there is no official L service in Turkey so they reject it. I have to pay xxk usd for a new engine.

    You are lucky to have warranty



    Have the car inspected by an authorized entity to confirm whether the damages were truly caused by improper service. If they weren't, sue the company and make it public. They tried to deny the claims for exploding brake discs, so this doesn't surprise me.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    At 18.000km what type of impoper service can be done?
    Twice oil change , and once spark change??

    I dont have an official service stamp (service done by Lamborghini authorized service) so they deny goodwill.

    Unfortunately nothing to do now except pay and make the car fixed

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    VGA18 said:
    At 18.000km what type of impoper service can be done?
    Twice oil change , and once spark change??

    I dont have an official service stamp (service done by Lamborghini authorized service) so they deny goodwill.

    Unfortunately nothing to do now except pay and make the car fixed



    Sue the company. They know it's their screw-up, but don't want to pay up. The court will commission an expert to analyze the situation and write an evaluation. You will undoubtedly win. Make sure to cite all the previous occasions where Lambo denied responsibility, despite it clearly being the culprit.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    This is not first or second lambo engine I heard who has to be rebuild with low milage. We have a member here who made a twin turbo upgrade on his Gallardo. His tuner had to open the engine to lower compression ratio and the unit showed anormal wear for such low milage engine

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    I dont know why this happens @ low mileage

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    john999s said:
    Porsche can and should do better. Porsche can make the series 997 lighter, faster and punch even more above its weight but they choose not to because of marketing.



    A few facts:

    1. in their specific class, Porsche cars are always lighter than the competition with a few exceptions maybe (997 Turbo vs. F430...due to AWD).

    2. Porsche quality has never been that good like it is now, owning various Porsche since 1996 and dealing with Porsche stuff since that time, I can confirm it.

    3. there wasn't much "room" for making the 997 faster, the 997 Turbo already does 0-200 kph (125 mph) in slightly above 12 seconds, this is only 2 seconds away from the Carrera GT.

    I agree however that Porsche could do a little bit more for the customers (who actually kept alive Porsche with their loyalty) by offering more interesting options and maybe slightly higher performance figures. Of course, if you compare a Corvette Z06 with the 997 Turbo, the Vette is a real bargain. On the other hand, compare the Z06 to other products and they look bad too in comparison, so this is really a very special situation where GM put a car on the market to raise their reputation, a car which according to various experts doesn't earn too much money for GM, if any at all.

    Regarding product quality: we own three Porsche, a 997 Turbo (6800 km), a Boxster S (16000 km) and a Cayenne Turbo Powerkit (46000 km). The 997 Turbo and Boxster S have been 100% trouble-free so far, the Cayenne Turbo had four ignition coils replaced (under warranty) and was still able to go over 1000 km with the defective ones.
    My former 997 Carrera S (17000 km when I sold it) got a new gearbox because I made complaints about the second gear and apparently Porsche "trusts" me since they exchanged it immediately without any questions asked (warranty).
    My 996 Turbo had gearbox problems (3rd gear popping out from time to time as far as I remember) BEFORE the tuning, afterwards with a tuned 543 HP engine (RS-Tuning), no problems at all. This car did 17000 km with the tuned engine and another 50000 km or so with the new owner...no problems at all.

    Before the 996 Turbo, I owned a 996 Carrera 4 Powerkit (the first customer car as far as I remember). Trouble free until I had a broken screw at the rear stabilizer bar, without PSM I wouldn't have survived it...it happened at 260 kph in a curve and I found out two days later because of the weird driving feel and some "clanking" noise.

    Before that, I owned a 996 Carrera, again one of the first customer cars in Germany. This car was horrible, only problems, it was sent to Weissach for a week to find out a problem with the ignition and PCM (strange noise) and I had tons of other problems like squeaking noises, rattle noises, this car was the worst quality car in my life (and I owned Fiats and Lancias before ).

    My first Porsche was a 993 Targa and although some people seem to remember the "good old times", I don't agree. The 993 had a horrible gear ratio (my car had still the first gearbox version without the later "swiss" gear ratio), it was very tricky to drive sometimes and overall quality impression was like driving a Volkswagen Beetle...the original one...horrible.

    That said, I think that Porsche improved quality a lot over the past few years since the 996 showed up. Each and every year you could actually see and feel the quality improvements. I'm just a little bit disappointed that Porsche didn't make the right step with the 997 by making it looking for classy from the inside. I also don't understand the missing LED rear lights on the Turbo and all this silver colour crap inside the car really annoys me.

    Yes, Porsche isn't perfect and yes, their decisions are always led by marketing thoughts and not necessarily what the customer wants. Looking at the changes at Porsche, especially over the past two years, I must however say that I'm happy that it didn't get worse. A lot of employees came over from BMW, now the same thing with former Mercedes employees who came to Porsche to help them with the new Panamera. Porsche learned a lot from them, I'm sure about it but unfortunately they forgot to learn from another important factor: the customer. Porsche reads internet forums and they even make notes about some posts, some even make it to development for further improvements. I just wish Porsche would be more concerned about customer opinion because to be honest: I owned (or still own) eight Porsche cars since 1996 but Porsche hasn't asked me once directly what could be improved or what I don't like. Of course I send them my well known letters from time to time where I describe my thoughts and my wishes for the future but usually I get only a "thank you, we appreciate your opinion" and thats it.
    It got even worse, during a meeting with a high ranking Weissach employee, I was actually told to refrain from further contacts because this guy apparently just met with me to throw me a cookie like we say here in Germany. Very disappointing.

    My experience with Porsche has been negative AND positive all the way: one guy I talked to many years ago about a problem was very nice and helpful, the same person who got me my Tiptronic S (well, due to an "order" from a higher rank but still...) and he was very nice again. Also the tech guy with warranty stuff, always helpful and nice.
    On the other hand, bad karma from the quality management department, it seems we didn't hit off right when we met.

    Btw: I achieved a lot with Porsche by talking to them directly and sending letters/faxes. A friend who owned a Ferrari can't even believe that somebody at Porsche cared about my letters/faxes, he was pretty impressed with the results. Porsche may have grown and they may have changed from many points of view but in the past, they always had an "ear" for me and my stuff, something I always appreciated. So maybe we should give them the credit of doing the right thing to survive and to be able to offer even better products than now.

    Of course this shouldn't be an excuse not to improve further in the future.

     
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