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    are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    i am worried by stories here and ferrarichat about injured drivers and passengers in accidents that should not have caused such injuries. in particular, it appears that crush zones are not well developed in even newer ferraris such as 360's and 355's.
    please provide me with any information you have on ferrrari safety in accidents, including the results of crash testing in europe or elsewhere. any tests on the new f430 would be particularly welcome.

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    Quote:
    ignacio said:
    i am worried by stories here and ferrarichat about injured drivers and passengers in accidents that should not have caused such injuries. in particular, it appears that crush zones are not well developed in even newer ferraris such as 360's and 355's.
    please provide me with any information you have on ferrrari safety in accidents, including the results of crash testing in europe or elsewhere. any tests on the new f430 would be particularly welcome.



    In the write up regarding the 430 Ferrari indicates that the stiffness of the chassis is so good that they opted NOT to install side airbags. However, as in any sport car high speed collision serious injuries are likely regardless of the make of the vehicle.

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    Quote:
    nberry said:

    In the write up regarding the 430 Ferrari indicates that the stiffness of the chassis is so good that they opted NOT to install side airbags. However, as in any sport car high speed collision serious injuries are likely regardless of the make of the vehicle.



    Nick: If you ever get a 430, I hope you are never involved in an accident with strong lateral acceleration, the side door/structure integrity notwithstanding. If you know physics, you will understand what it will mean to crash your head against the side door/structure w/o an airbag cushion.

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    In the write up regarding the 430 Ferrari indicates that the stiffness of the chassis is so good that they opted NOT to install side airbags.



    Was that for real? what does the airbag have to do with the chassis stiffness? have they made the chasis and whole cabin so soft and puffy that don't smash your head when you hit it or when a car smashes into your door? guess since the chasis is so stiff... seatbelts aren't needed then either?

    Not having full set of airbags is suicidal and just darn stupid nowadays... then again we hop on sportbikes that don't even have a chasis in the first place (nor elec aids, nor seatbelts or airbags, nor a decent contact patch) combined savage performance to get you in trouble compared to cars and don't even think twice about it

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    In the write up regarding the 430 Ferrari indicates that the stiffness of the chassis is so good that they opted NOT to install side airbags.



    Was that for real? what does the airbag have to do with the chassis stiffness? have they made the chasis and whole cabin so soft and puffy that don't smash your head when you hit it or when a car smashes into your door? guess since the chasis is so stiff... seatbelts aren't needed then either?

    Not having full set of airbags is suicidal and just darn stupid nowadays... then again we hop on sportbikes that don't even have a chasis in the first place (nor elec aids, nor seatbelts or airbags, nor a decent contact patch) combined savage performance to get you in trouble compared to cars and don't even think twice about it



    This is what Ferrari had to say;

    To achieve such high standards, particular care was taken over the chassis design in the all-vital crumple zones, integrating the design of the various elements with the type of aluminium used. The central part of the chassis does not absorb energy, but is rigid enough to resist intrusion and roll over. Front and rear armature increases crash resistance, while the mountings of the side impact bars have been strengthened and reinforced so as to transfer energy throughout the chassis away from the area of impact. Similarly, the areas around the A-post and B-post and inner wheelarches have been reinforced. The floor of the car is in a new aeronautical alloy which sees use for the first time in a chassis. This alloy (7075 T6), is extremely resistant and its extremely light weight provides further advantages. The door structure, the chassis reinforcements, the positioning of the collapsible arm rest and a more enveloping seat shape provide excellent protection. Scores in side impact tests were so good that side airbags were deemed unnecessary.


    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    i find the ferrari statement about side airbags strange and worrisome.

    i find no evidence of crash testing for either porsche or ferrari on nhtsa (u.s.) or nacp (euro) websites.

    is there any good information out there?

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    In the write up regarding the 430 Ferrari indicates that the stiffness of the chassis is so good that they opted NOT to install side airbags.



    That is exactly the same argumentation as in case of the 612. Ferrari also used almost the same words. I think it's Ferrari's unsuccessful attempt, trying to cloud their lack of passive safety systems in their cars.

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    Thanks Nick. Sounds good except the last phrase. Seems like they worried about the chasis as a passive safety item more than in the past, I think this is great of Ferrari. But what relation does it have to the roll of the airbags in passive safety? One thing is to protect the vital cabin space from the impact (like chasis design), another is to protect the pasengers from the cabin (like airbags, seatbelts, and non-aggresive cabin inside design and elements). One does not substitute the other, maybe the doors can withstand a SUV trying to come in through your side window but the door sure ain't soft when you kiss it in that collision

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    Quote:
    ignacio said:
    i find the ferrari statement about side airbags strange and worrisome.

    i find no evidence of crash testing for either porsche or ferrari on nhtsa (u.s.) or nacp (euro) websites.

    is there any good information out there?



    If you are THAT concerned about safety, you shouldn't be looking at these cars. Sedans are much safer.

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?


    The driver lost control at 240km/h due to a tire blowout, flipped over several times. Both driver and passenger got out with only a couple scratches.

    J. Seven knows more about this crash..

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    Has anyone seen the site wrecked exotics???
    Majority of their update includes ferrari's

    I think the drivers are expecting to much
    out of the car just because its a
    ferrari ..

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    ANY car in a high-speed crash can and will be dangerous, PERIOD. Ferraris HAVE to pass all safety tests just like any Ford. Problem is many Ferrari owners drive very fast and are not good enough drivers, that's their downfall, not the cars persay. As fa as the side airbag comments, I can shed some light here. My uncle works for a private crash testing board for many US insurance companies. He told me if a cars struture is a certain % stiff, that side airbags are not required. The reason is that a crash that in a lesser stiff car would need them, the stiffer car would not. If the crash was so severe the side airbags wouldn't do any good anyway. So Ferraris statement about the side airbags make sense. The F430 has a super stiff aluminum struture, much stiffer then the 360s. Not to mention improved crumple zones, dual airbags, ABS, and all sorts of other electronics. IMO quite a safe car. PS it passes 2007, crash standads....Very good if you ask me for a exotic sports car.

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    Per crash injury data (?of IIHS) sounds like 996 is one of safer cars available...among all cars, not just sports cars. Problem is F is so limited production that similar data doesn't seem to exist, but anecdotal data and common sense (lack of side/head airbags; mass production's ability to refine safety engineering/systems, etc.) seem to indicate safety is a F weakness. Another question to ask is whether 430 has reengineered fuel tank/lines to avoid the post-collision "cremation chamber" that 360 is reported to include as standard equipment...with an offsetting optional fire extinguisher. Doubt you will find scientific data to prove F's are unsafe with a capable, safe driver...but I suspect a bad SUV driver may cremate a capable, safe F driver . May want to view F's as somewhat similar to Ducatis in risk/reward profile...very visceral thrill w/some of the downside risk that comes w/those thrills.....

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    Another question to ask is whether 430 has reengineered fuel tank/lines to avoid the post-collision "cremation chamber" that 360 is reported to include as standard equipment...with an offsetting optional fire extinguisher. Doubt you will find scientific data to prove F's are unsafe with a capable, safe driver...but I suspect a bad SUV driver may cremate a capable, safe F driver .



    Yes they have.

    The spaceframe chassis consists of a mix of aluminium extrusions, panelling cast nodes and has been completely revised using finite element analysis to further reinforce key areas. Chassis rigidity, which is indispensable for optimal handling, has been increased by 20% in terms of torsion and by 8% in terms of flexure. Just like with a F1 monocoque, the increased structural rigidity means that only the suspension absorbs asperities from the road surface. This in turn means that there is no deformation of the chassis to interfer with the car's road-holding in cornering, braking or under acceleration. The improvements to the chassis have also brought the car's passive safety features up to excellent standards. A minimal increase in overall chassis weight of 10% has enabled Ferrari's engineers to increase the resistance to front-end impact by 37% (in compliance with US standard 301) and to rear-end impact by an astonishing 105%.

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    May want to find a smart friend with an engineering background (pref mech engineering) who is also a sportscar enthusiast to help assess crash structures/systems of 996TTS/997S vs 360/612/430, esp evaluating crumple zone design, fuel tank placement, side door reinforcements, airbags (side/head, size of bags, etc.), torsional rigidity, interior compartment safety engineering, etc etc. Draw your own conclusions and place your bets appropriately.

    If all else fails, rationalize your decision by arguing some combination of: there's insufficent crash data to draw scientific conclusions; the US govt would never allow an unsafe car to be sold in US; unsafe drivers kill more than unsafe cars; and, finally, we're all going to die of something....so whatever....

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    May want to find a smart friend with an engineering background (pref mech engineering) who is also a sportscar enthusiast to help assess crash structures/systems of 996TTS/997S vs 360/612/430, esp evaluating crumple zone design, fuel tank placement, side door reinforcements, airbags (side/head, size of bags, etc.), torsional rigidity, interior compartment safety engineering, etc etc. Draw your own conclusions and place your bets appropriately.

    If all else fails, rationalize your decision by arguing some combination of: there's insufficent crash data to draw scientific conclusions; the US govt would never allow an unsafe car to be sold in US; unsafe drivers kill more than unsafe cars; and, finally, we're all going to die of something....so whatever....



    the lack of side airbags for head protection is enough to show me that ferrari is not serious about keeping its owners safe. life is too short to spend part of it brain damaged. as a neurologist, i see the results of careless engineering every day.

    i expected more from ferrari--perhaps i'm naive.

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    Quote:
    Radar said:
    If you are THAT concerned about safety, you shouldn't be looking at these cars. Sedans are much safer.



    That is quite a generalisation, and like most generalisations, also quite suspect.

    In terms of crash safety, there are good sedans and bad sedans, and there are good sportscars and bad sportscars. I would prefer to be in a good sportscar to a bad sedan anyday.

    On reflection, I would also prefer to be in a good sportscar than a good sedan any day.
    Apart from the fact that a sportscar does not need to be inherently less safe than a sedan, you might as well enjoy your driving when not having accidents.

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    The comments about Ferrari's being more "unsafe" than another manufacturer are comical. I would love to see any data that backs up that claim (I don't think photos on a website represent hard data). Porsche's, wrecked or not, are a dime a dozen compared to Ferrari's; it's not hard to figure out why posting wrecked Ferrari's would draw more attention. The bottom line is that every manufacturer passes the same safety tests in the country where they sell cars, or they get an exception (more about that later).

    If you want to believe that Ferrari is not serious about safety because they build a car that is so stiff that it does not require airbags, how do you explain the fact that all 996's have old technology side airbags? Porsche has used a little known exemption (for manufacturers with less than two production lines if I remember correctly) to install airbags that will give you a nice compound fracture if you happen to be holding tightly onto the door grip. When the Feds questioned that exception when Porsche built the additional production capacity for the Cayenne and CGT, Porsche fought tooth and nail to keep the exemption in place. Do you think they did that because they were concerned about your safety, or because they were concerned about their profits? Last year Porsche made 1B Euro in profit...

    As an owner of several Porsches (including two now) and an owner of a 360 spider (recently sold), the only thing we can agree on here is that Ferrari's are more of a handful in the hands of an inexperienced driver. I know personally of a few 360's that were all totaled in similar fashion; cold tires, heavy foot. I blame that on the stupidity of the driver, not the manufacturer. Porsche has done a good job of adding enough driver aids to save even the spectacularly stupid and in the process has taken down the driver experience imo. I cannot disagree with comments that the Turbo is a pretty boring car to drive (and I own one:) Ferrari has stayed the course in building a much "rawer" experience; and I like that.

    For the record, I like the direction Ferrari is going in. They continue to focus on building spectacular cars, not on being the most profitable car manufacturer in the world.

    Just my .02 worth.
    Roy

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    Radar said:
    If you are THAT concerned about safety, you shouldn't be looking at these cars. Sedans are much safer.



    fritz is right. the injury statistics for porsche are as good as lexus or mercedes or volvo even though porsche drivers get into more accidents. porsche has had side/window airbags since 1999 on all 996's and boxers. http://www3.us.porsche.com/english/usa/news/pressreleases/pag/modelyear99/airbags.htm

    ferrari should be ashamed of themselves for neglecting side airbags to date. to neglect installing them in the new f430 and scaglietti with a lame excuse about structural rigidity is inexcusable. the problem that side airbags address is the head stiking the side window and pillars. the structural integrity of the door does not protect the driver or occupant against the secondary collision between occupant and the interior of the car. this oversight also makes me question how well designed crush zones are in ferraris.


    That is quite a generalisation, and like most generalisations, also quite suspect.

    In terms of crash safety, there are good sedans and bad sedans, and there are good sportscars and bad sportscars. I would prefer to be in a good sportscar to a bad sedan anyday.

    On reflection, I would also prefer to be in a good sportscar than a good sedan any day.
    Apart from the fact that a sportscar does not need to be inherently less safe than a sedan, you might as well enjoy your driving when not having accidents.


    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Apart from the fact that a sportscar does not need to be inherently less safe than a sedan



    And while the good sportcar may not necesarily be inferior in passive safety than a good sedan, its true tha a good sportcar will generally be superior in active safety than a good sedan.

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    Quote:
    The bottom line is that every manufacturer passes the same safety tests in the country where they sell cars, or they get an exception (more about that later).


    I see this coming up pretty often.. so what if it passes the tests? Those tests are just the lowest common denominator, two cars aren't equally safe even if they pass the same tests. A NCAP 5-star car is MUCH safer than a 3-star one.

    Quote:
    If you want to believe that Ferrari is not serious about safety because they build a car that is so stiff that it does not require airbags, how do you explain the fact that all 996's have old technology side airbags?


    So 'old technology' side airbags are worse than banging your head on the pillar at 100km/h?
    A sudden stop at _fifty_ (50) km/h equals to THIRTY G's.
    I'd rather have a compound fracture than my brain turned to squished sponge and my torso crushed.

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    Quote:
    Tpup said:
    The comments about Ferrari's being more "unsafe" than another manufacturer are comical. I would love to see any data that backs up that claim (I don't think photos on a website represent hard data). Porsche's, wrecked or not, are a dime a dozen compared to Ferrari's; it's not hard to figure out why posting wrecked Ferrari's would draw more attention. The bottom line is that every manufacturer passes the same safety tests in the country where they sell cars, or they get an exception (more about that later).

    If you want to believe that Ferrari is not serious about safety because they build a car that is so stiff that it does not require airbags, how do you explain the fact that all 996's have old technology side airbags? Porsche has used a little known exemption (for manufacturers with less than two production lines if I remember correctly) to install airbags that will give you a nice compound fracture if you happen to be holding tightly onto the door grip. When the Feds questioned that exception when Porsche built the additional production capacity for the Cayenne and CGT, Porsche fought tooth and nail to keep the exemption in place. Do you think they did that because they were concerned about your safety, or because they were concerned about their profits? Last year Porsche made 1B Euro in profit...

    As an owner of several Porsches (including two now) and an owner of a 360 spider (recently sold), the only thing we can agree on here is that Ferrari's are more of a handful in the hands of an inexperienced driver. I know personally of a few 360's that were all totaled in similar fashion; cold tires, heavy foot. I blame that on the stupidity of the driver, not the manufacturer. Porsche has done a good job of adding enough driver aids to save even the spectacularly stupid and in the process has taken down the driver experience imo. I cannot disagree with comments that the Turbo is a pretty boring car to drive (and I own one:) Ferrari has stayed the course in building a much "rawer" experience; and I like that.

    For the record, I like the direction Ferrari is going in. They continue to focus on building spectacular cars, not on being the most profitable car manufacturer in the world.

    Just my .02 worth.
    Roy



    Very well said....

    Some of the comments I'm reading in here are a joke. I have relatives in the car safety industry and some of these comments are made without proper knowledge. I would take a super stiff structure over an extra airbag anyday. If the other car purtrudes the safety zone your in trouble. A very stiff structure would keep that car away from that point.

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Quote:
    The bottom line is that every manufacturer passes the same safety tests in the country where they sell cars, or they get an exception (more about that later).


    I see this coming up pretty often.. so what if it passes the tests? Those tests are just the lowest common denominator, two cars aren't equally safe even if they pass the same tests. A NCAP 5-star car is MUCH safer than a 3-star one.

    Quote:
    If you want to believe that Ferrari is not serious about safety because they build a car that is so stiff that it does not require airbags, how do you explain the fact that all 996's have old technology side airbags?


    So 'old technology' side airbags are worse than banging your head on the pillar at 100km/h?
    A sudden stop at _fifty_ (50) km/h equals to THIRTY G's.
    I'd rather have a compound fracture than my brain turned to squished sponge and my torso crushed.



    Brunner,

    I think you bring up some valid points, however, you have not presented any data supporting the position that Porsches are safer. I agree with you that a 5 star rating is better than a 3 star, where's the ratings for Carrera and a 360 (as an example)? Show me the data and I'll believe.

    Keep in mind that US Federal legislation required auto's move the "A" piller away from drivers heads for the reason you mentioned. (Remember the Lotus Esprit, that's one of the reasons it's not made anymore.) I'd love to see the data on head injuries in a Ferrari vs a Porsche as well.

    Either way, I doubt I'll care when my 430 arrives:)

    Roy

    ps. I've never had an accident in on of my toys on the street so it's never been a big concern for me...

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    No science to any of these criticisms of Ferrari, it seems. Give me more performance; I'll worry about my own safety.

    As a Ferrari client, I am perfectly satisfied with the safety of the 360 and 575. I doubt the "market" will force Ferrari to change its approach to safety - nor do I think any change is needed.

    I suspect the regulators or courts eventually will step in and ruin driving once and for all. In my daughter's lifetime, I suspect the great public mommies will deem it inefficient and dangerous to permit owners to control their cars on busy public highways. You'll find me in my then vintage Stradale - on a non-automated back road, or buried in it.

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    Quote:
    BluCamSS said:


    Very well said....

    Some of the comments I'm reading in here are a joke. I have relatives in the car safety industry and some of these comments are made without proper knowledge. I would take a super stiff structure over an extra airbag anyday. If the other car purtrudes the safety zone your in trouble. A very stiff structure would keep that car away from that point.



    a stiff structure does not take the place of an airbag. both are important. btw, the gallarrdo has side curtain airbags, too. why not ferrari? the msrp is beig increased 12%. ferrari can afford it.

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    Quote:
    ignacio said:
    Quote:
    BluCamSS said:


    Very well said....

    Some of the comments I'm reading in here are a joke. I have relatives in the car safety industry and some of these comments are made without proper knowledge. I would take a super stiff structure over an extra airbag anyday. If the other car purtrudes the safety zone your in trouble. A very stiff structure would keep that car away from that point.



    a stiff structure does not take the place of an airbag. both are important. btw, the gallarrdo has side curtain airbags, too. why not ferrari? the msrp is beig increased 12%. ferrari can afford it.



    The Gallardo is also 14% less stiff then the F430....I'll take the stiffness anyday.

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    Quote:
    BluCamSS said:
    Quote:
    ignacio said:
    Quote:
    BluCamSS said:


    Very well said....

    Some of the comments I'm reading in here are a joke. I have relatives in the car safety industry and some of these comments are made without proper knowledge. I would take a super stiff structure over an extra airbag anyday. If the other car purtrudes the safety zone your in trouble. A very stiff structure would keep that car away from that point.



    a stiff structure does not take the place of an airbag. both are important. btw, the gallarrdo has side curtain airbags, too. why not ferrari? the msrp is beig increased 12%. ferrari can afford it.



    The Gallardo is also 14% less stiff then the F430....I'll take the stiffness anyday.



    So you lose control of the car and slam sideways into a wall at 50 mph. Your head slams against the door and turns into a bloody pulp. How does a stiff chassis prevent such an injury? Because sidebags sure do.

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    So you lose control of the car and slam sideways into a wall at 50 mph. Your head slams against the door and turns into a bloody pulp. How does a stiff chassis prevent such an injury? Because sidebags sure do.



    I tried explaining that at the beginning of the thread with no avail...

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    If the car has proper belts and the a-pillar is in the right place, with a super-stiff structure that's not as much as an issue as you think, like I have said I have family in the auto-safety field, I know all the ins and outs. TOOOO many people have false ideas about airbags. Think what you all want, I'm done here....

    Re: are ferraris less safe than porsches in a crash?

    Why do you need FRONT airbags then? Isn't that the same thing?

    Euro-NCAP and the american equivalent (too lazy to look up the name) give significantly less points in a test if the car doesn't have side airbags. I suppose they have false ideas about those airbags, too..

     
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