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    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    SciFrog:
    RC:
    SciFrog:

    Investor visa works for sure, I know two people who did it... But business in Miami is nothing like business in Germany, it is a latin “country”.

    This could actually suit me better... Smiley Smiley

    Investor visa? Well, you flatter me, I'm afraid I'm not that wealthy. OK, maybe with selling some stuff, I could qualify but I want to move to the US only if I can really afford it. Right now it looks more like a "6 months a year" adventure after I retire. Smiley Unless of course I find something to do in the US, you never know, life can change fast (a friend of mine never wanted to move to the US and now lives there for a couple of years...an old school friend who immigrated to the US needed him for his business and they partnered up). One thing is for sure though: I will never be able to work in my current profession in the US, so I have to find something new. OK, I could sell drugs (the other kind... Smiley) but I'm afraid I am too honest, too scared and probably too dumb to do that. Smiley Smiley

    Are we talking about the same investor visa requiring $250k to $500k? If so I have to admit your lifestyle is a real head scratcher Smiley

    Around 500k for Miami, yes...

    My lifestyle is not a head scratcher but I live a good life. This doesn't mean I am very rich, 500k mean something for me and I wouldn't want to loose this money (there is no guarantee you get something out of it, on the contrary).

    Or let me put it this way: Your charity is probably wealthier than I am. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    So now even Porsche joined the game and take deposit for pre-order. Approx 2000 EUR. Audi does the same with the E-tron. Many have criticized Tesla for this approach with the Model 3 and now the Germans follow with the same approach....

    Dear Xxxxx Xxxxxxx

    You are listed on one of our dealers’ list of stakeholders for the production version of the concept car Porsche Mission E. Based on the great interest, we wish to confirm your purchase intentions through a pre-booking. If you wish to keep your priority in the queue, you will need to make a payment of an advance payment of kr 20,000, – by April 25th.

    This is done through the registration page.On the same page you will find conditions and relevant information about the reservation solution.

    You have been assigned a priority code to ensure that you already listed on your reservation list keep your priority space in the queue. The code is personal and linked to your email address.

    Your code is: xxxxxxx

    Thank you for your interest in Porsche! Should you be wondering, contact your preferred Porsche Center. Contact information can be found on porsche.no

    The concept car is mentioned here.

    If you do not want to make a reservation but will be kept up to date with news around the model, you can register here.

    With best regards,
    Porsche Norway


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Well, the Germans have been doing this for years with some models


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Enzo II:

    Well, the Germans have been doing this for years with some models

    So what? I can order whatever car I want here in Germany, no problem, without a down payment but then, if I do not take that car, I have to pay a penalty of 20% of the car's value. So I guess the 2000 EUR deposit is the better solution for many. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:
    Enzo II:

    Well, the Germans have been doing this for years with some models

    So what? I can order whatever car I want here in Germany, no problem, without a down payment but then, if I do not take that car, I have to pay a penalty of 20% of the car's value. So I guess the 2000 EUR deposit is the better solution for many. Smiley


    But that is a different thing. What you talk about is doing an actual car order to specification. This is a step before that. The same rules will apply when your queue number turns up for your Mission-E in 2019/2020 and it's time to individualize the order. At that point the same rules will apply as ordering any car that is "available" and you have some legal obligations after signing those papers


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Enzo II:

    Well, the Germans have been doing this for years with some models


    Sure, but the big difference here is that it is a formalized/standardized procedure. For other models dealerships have been taking pre-deposits for specific cars, but this has actually been different between local dealerships and up to the dealership to manage the deposit level and queue. The Mission-E approach is however from Porsche AG.

    This is however not a big thing. Just found it interesting that they decided to go with this approach.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    lukestern:
    Enzo II:

    Well, the Germans have been doing this for years with some models


    Sure, but the big difference here is that it is a formalized/standardized procedure. For other models dealerships have been taking pre-deposits for specific cars, but this has actually been different between local dealerships and up to the dealership to manage the deposit level and queue. The Mission-E approach is however from Porsche AG.

    This is however not a big thing. Just found it interesting that they decided to go with this approach.

    The reason is probably simple: They want to "cut out" the people who show interest just because...and aren't really actually interested in the car. They need to plan ahead, so the deposit is a good way to make sure that those putting down a deposit actually also want a car. Not all of them of course but there is experience with the US market.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    lukestern:
    RC:
    Enzo II:

    Well, the Germans have been doing this for years with some models

    So what? I can order whatever car I want here in Germany, no problem, without a down payment but then, if I do not take that car, I have to pay a penalty of 20% of the car's value. So I guess the 2000 EUR deposit is the better solution for many. Smiley


    But that is a different thing. What you talk about is doing an actual car order to specification. This is a step before that. The same rules will apply when your queue number turns up for your Mission-E in 2019/2020 and it's time to individualize the order. At that point the same rules will apply as ordering any car that is "available" and you have some legal obligations after signing those papers

     

    Let me remind you that Porsche was asking for 200k US deposit for the 918 way back then to put the name down.

    Then 200k US at the time of configuration. (They scratched that later) One only pay the balance at delivery.

    Mclaren asked for 200k US too for the P1 deposit back then. 

    But unlike Tesla with the new Roadster, they didn't ask for the full car payment up front. 

    But then again Porsche and McLaren have a better chance of staying in business and the ability to pay back the customer than Tesla. So it's a no brainer to give them the money up front.

     

     

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Whoopsy:
    lukestern:
    RC:
    Enzo II:

    Well, the Germans have been doing this for years with some models

    So what? I can order whatever car I want here in Germany, no problem, without a down payment but then, if I do not take that car, I have to pay a penalty of 20% of the car's value. So I guess the 2000 EUR deposit is the better solution for many. Smiley


    But that is a different thing. What you talk about is doing an actual car order to specification. This is a step before that. The same rules will apply when your queue number turns up for your Mission-E in 2019/2020 and it's time to individualize the order. At that point the same rules will apply as ordering any car that is "available" and you have some legal obligations after signing those papers

     

    Let me remind you that Porsche was asking for 200k US deposit for the 918 way back then to put the name down.

    Then 200k US at the time of configuration. (They scratched that later) One only pay the balance at delivery.

    Mclaren asked for 200k US too for the P1 deposit back then. 

    But unlike Tesla with the new Roadster, they didn't ask for the full car payment up front. 

    But then again Porsche and McLaren have a better chance of staying in business and the ability to pay back the customer than Tesla. So it's a no brainer to give them the money up front.


    What does 918 and Roaster got to do with this?

    The point was that Porsche went down the same route as Tesla with taking pre-deposits from "average Joe" for a car without production limitations (like there is with 918 and Roadster founders edition capped to about 1000 units).


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:
    lukestern:
    Enzo II:

    Well, the Germans have been doing this for years with some models


    Sure, but the big difference here is that it is a formalized/standardized procedure. For other models dealerships have been taking pre-deposits for specific cars, but this has actually been different between local dealerships and up to the dealership to manage the deposit level and queue. The Mission-E approach is however from Porsche AG.

    This is however not a big thing. Just found it interesting that they decided to go with this approach.

    The reason is probably simple: They want to "cut out" the people who show interest just because...and aren't really actually interested in the car. They need to plan ahead, so the deposit is a good way to make sure that those putting down a deposit actually also want a car. Not all of them of course but there is experience with the US market.

    Nah, think the only reason is that they want to "lock-in" the buyers already so that they don't end up buying something else. Having put down 2k feels that you are more tied in to the purchase than just having a number in the general queue.

    Actually, it will not matter how many Mission-E Porsche produce, they will sell everything that will jump out of the factory. 20-30k cars annually is way too little. The car will be in higher demand than that and I think Porsche underestimate that. At least that is the official version. They probably can't source enough batteries to increase the production. That's the limitation they are facing.

    I think one reason for not having introduced the Cayenne E-hybrid already (it is delayed and should have been officially introduced already in March). They can't source enough batteries and the demand for the Panamera versions of the E-hybrid has been much higher than expected. For the Cayenne the figure will probably be even higher.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    lukestern:
    RC:
    lukestern:
    Enzo II:

    Well, the Germans have been doing this for years with some models


    Sure, but the big difference here is that it is a formalized/standardized procedure. For other models dealerships have been taking pre-deposits for specific cars, but this has actually been different between local dealerships and up to the dealership to manage the deposit level and queue. The Mission-E approach is however from Porsche AG.

    This is however not a big thing. Just found it interesting that they decided to go with this approach.

    The reason is probably simple: They want to "cut out" the people who show interest just because...and aren't really actually interested in the car. They need to plan ahead, so the deposit is a good way to make sure that those putting down a deposit actually also want a car. Not all of them of course but there is experience with the US market.

    Nah, think the only reason is that they want to "lock-in" the buyers already so that they don't end up buying something else. Having put down 2k feels that you are more tied in to the purchase than just having a number in the general queue.

    Seriously? People want a 100k+ car and care about 2k? Smiley I doubt this is the strategy behind Porsche's decision. Porsche needs to know how many people are seriously interested in the car, it is not a car they can build from "standard" parts from suppliers, this car needs serious planning ahead of production.

    Actually, it will not matter how many Mission-E Porsche produce, they will sell everything that will jump out of the factory. 20-30k cars annually is way too little. The car will be in higher demand than that and I think Porsche underestimate that. At least that is the official version. They probably can't source enough batteries to increase the production. That's the limitation they are facing.

    I hope you are right (and Porsche as well) but I am still skeptical. There just isn't that "I badly want an EV" vibe in Germany right now, also not in other parts in Europe (with the exception of Norway maybe). US? Maybe but still, not seeing it. We'll see but I'm not convinced yet.

    I think one reason for not having introduced the Cayenne E-hybrid already (it is delayed and should have been officially introduced already in March). They can't source enough batteries and the demand for the Panamera versions of the E-hybrid has been much higher than expected. For the Cayenne the figure will probably be even higher.

    Possible...  Panamera hybrid versions are a rare breed in Germany, maybe not so in other countries? Smiley Also, after the Sport Auto Turbo S review (Panamera), I doubt that people will stay in line for this car. Smiley Actually, it consumes more than my E63 S Smiley and performance is basically the same. Oh boy...


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:
    lukestern:
    Nah, think the only reason is that they want to "lock-in" the buyers already so that they don't end up buying something else. Having put down 2k feels that you are more tied in to the purchase than just having a number in the general queue.

    Seriously? People want a 100k+ car and care about 2k? Smiley I doubt this is the strategy behind Porsche's decision. Porsche needs to know how many people are seriously interested in the car, it is not a car they can build from "standard" parts from suppliers, this car needs serious planning ahead of production.

    Of course the money is not the thing here. But even if it is a small sum, it moves you a little bit closer to order one instead of just dropping an e-mail to the dealership asking them to put you in line. It's a similar ratio to the Tesla 3 where the deposit is 1k for a car that cost half as much.

    Actually, it will not matter how many Mission-E Porsche produce, they will sell everything that will jump out of the factory. 20-30k cars annually is way too little. The car will be in higher demand than that and I think Porsche underestimate that. At least that is the official version. They probably can't source enough batteries to increase the production. That's the limitation they are facing.

    I hope you are right (and Porsche as well) but I am still skeptical. There just isn't that "I badly want an EV" vibe in Germany right now, also not in other parts in Europe (with the exception of Norway maybe). US? Maybe but still, not seeing it. We'll see but I'm not convinced yet.

    I think you will be in for a surprise. Things will happen faster than you can imagine.
    We have a completely different view on this, that I know. But time will tell how it turn out in 2020 and the coming 5 years. I seriously think the difficult cars to sell at that point is Panamera and similar. The demand will plummet if Porsche comes up with a great product with the Mission-E, like I really hope they do.

    I think one reason for not having introduced the Cayenne E-hybrid already (it is delayed and should have been officially introduced already in March). They can't source enough batteries and the demand for the Panamera versions of the E-hybrid has been much higher than expected. For the Cayenne the figure will probably be even higher.

    Possible...  Panamera hybrid versions are a rare breed in Germany, maybe not so in other countries? Smiley Also, after the Sport Auto Turbo S review (Panamera), I doubt that people will stay in line for this car. Smiley Actually, it consumes more than my E63 S Smiley and performance is basically the same. Oh boy...

    60% of Panamera sales are hybrids. I've heard that it is up to 80% in some Scandinavian countries and 90% in Belgium according to this article.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-07/porsche-s-hybrid-a-hit-as-buyers-flock-to-plug-in-panamera

    The Turbo S is not the big seller of course, the normal 4 is. And I fully agree that the consumption is nuts. But people buy it for tax brakes and ability to ride smooth and pollution free in city centers.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    You need to understand the difference between dealer cars and real sales. Smiley

    Some Skandinavian countries and maybe Belgium (I don't have a clue) are not the world and furthermore, I believe there are specific incentives (tax, prices, etc.) in these countries to sell these cars, I may be wrong though.

    With EVs things will happen much faster than I think? Well...I doubt it. I have eyes and I live in Germany (the biggest economy in Europe) and I cannot really see any EV revolution here, sorry.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Deposits are being taken by Porsche and Audi because automakers, and this includes Tesla, know the size of the market for EVs.  Demand profiles with deposits are important in changing relative production levels as the industry transitions to EVs.

    A bit of trivia: Ford had 727,000 for its Model A when it was introduced in 1927.  Interest was so strong that over a 100,000 people went to the dealerships to see the car on its debut and in New York, Madison Square Garden was used to contain the crowds.  

     

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:

    You need to understand the difference between dealer cars and real sales. Smiley

    I think you underestimate what I understand or not.

    Some Skandinavian countries and maybe Belgium (I don't have a clue) are not the world and furthermore, I believe there are specific incentives (tax, prices, etc.) in these countries to sell these cars, I may be wrong though.

    With EVs things will happen much faster than I think? Well...I doubt it. I have eyes and I live in Germany (the biggest economy in Europe) and I cannot really see any EV revolution here, sorry.


    Your statements are interesting. At this point you don't see any EV revolution? But in other posts you write about all the amazing plans going on inside of VW. "They will kill Tesla sales" etc when they start rolling out their EVs.... So you say that they're killing a demand that does not exist and invest billions into something where there is no demand? The reason why Germany is moving slow right now is because of protection towards the domestic car industry. Why promote something NOW when there are no products for sale?

    You need to look a bit broader than in your own neighborhood Smiley


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Little known problem for Tesla is that China pulled substantial investments out of because Tesla was not making a profit.  Financial security is now even shakier than before.

    Also,  guess who holds the world's largest supply of lithium?  China.  Interesting times ahead for EV....


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    lukestern:
    RC:

    You need to understand the difference between dealer cars and real sales. Smiley

    I think you underestimate what I understand or not.

    Some Skandinavian countries and maybe Belgium (I don't have a clue) are not the world and furthermore, I believe there are specific incentives (tax, prices, etc.) in these countries to sell these cars, I may be wrong though.

    With EVs things will happen much faster than I think? Well...I doubt it. I have eyes and I live in Germany (the biggest economy in Europe) and I cannot really see any EV revolution here, sorry.


    Your statements are interesting. At this point you don't see any EV revolution? But in other posts you write about all the amazing plans going on inside of VW. "They will kill Tesla sales" etc when they start rolling out their EVs.... So you say that they're killing a demand that does not exist and invest billions into something where there is no demand? The reason why Germany is moving slow right now is because of protection towards the domestic car industry. Why promote something NOW when there are no products for sale?

    You need to look a bit broader than in your own neighborhood Smiley

    First, I do not work for VW Group and don't promote anything.

    Second, I said several times that I think that VW Group's approach to EVs is a bit too drastic and I don't think they should "abandon" petrol (and even Diesel) engines yet. It seems I'm not the only one thinking the same.

    Third, I still believe in hybrids (of some sorts) and in Germany, there is currently a lot going on regarding fuel cells tech in cars. So maybe this is the better alternative to EVs? I don't know.

    Fact is: I do not see major changes in mentality, buying behavior or whatever in Germany, so EVs could have their revolution here. Not yet. Same goes to the infrastructure. The biggest change I've seen so far is the local power provider company offering some sorts of driving share service with some EVs within the city. 20 cars or so... Smiley

    None of my friends or relatives has bought an EV or wants to buy one in the near future. Same goes to my customers and my business related contacts. There is nothing in my real daily life indicating any kind of EV revolution going to happen soon. ZERO.

    Maybe you live in your bubble, maybe I live in mine but so far, EVs are not exactly a huge success story in Germany. It may change with VW Group and others entering the market big time but car companies want to make money and I'm not so sure people want to risk their hard earned money for new technologies without an incentives or being forced to do so.
     

    Time will tell... Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Wonderbar:

    Little known problem for Tesla is that China pulled substantial investments out of because Tesla was not making a profit.  Financial security is now even shakier than before.

    Also,  guess who holds the world's largest supply of lithium?  China.  Interesting times ahead for EV....

    Actually Chile is the global supplier of lithium. It has has more than China.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Wonderbar:

    Little known problem for Tesla is that China pulled substantial investments out of because Tesla was not making a profit.  Financial security is now even shakier than before.

    Also,  guess who holds the world's largest supply of lithium?  China.  Interesting times ahead for EV....


    There are lot's of stuff going on with "mining" lithium in new ways... This is one example:

    https://electrek.co/2018/02/16/desalination-lithium/


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:

    None of my friends or relatives has bought an EV or wants to buy one in the near future. Same goes to my customers and my business related contacts. There is nothing in my real daily life indicating any kind of EV revolution going to happen soon. ZERO.

    RC,

    Your situation is very different from what I observe here, in flyover country, not even the coasts of USA.

    Many of my friends and acquaintances either already own Tesla model S or X, or are very interested in "the coming thing" of electric cars.

    My wife was "first on the block" with Tesla in 2009 (Roadster) and has been using her Model S for daily driving for 5 years.  Two of our neighbors now own Teslas for daily use and I answer more and more questions about ownership of electric cars -- mainly about driving range and how it affects usage habits.

    Now, the Jaguar iPace starts to get some attention and I get even more questions from people.  As soon as the Mission-E starts to be promoted, I think electric cars will be on the lips of plenty of people around where I live.

    If the success of Tesla sales in my area is a benchmark, I think it may be difficult to keep up with Mission-E demand.


    --

    Mike

    918 Spyder + 991 GT3 RS +Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I agree with Mike.  Three of my direct neighbors have Teslas--two model Ss and one X.  Used as daily drivers, including one "soccer mom".  On the streets, I see all least 5 Teslas daily,  

    I have owned Porsches since 1966, with all ranges of sound, power and configuration.  I love my 2018 Panamera Turbo and its quiet rumble at low speeds and its more raucous sport sound on hard acceleration.  But I think I may try a Mission E or even a Crossover in two or three years.  Sort of appealing to try something different.  Might make me younger, at least in concept


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I too agree with Mike.  EVs, despite Musk’s persistent fumbling, are here to stay, even in the sleepy Mid Central states.  What is interesting is that many Tesla purchasers are first time owners of expensive automobiles as the cars are status items.   This helps to disguise the numerous issues surrounding Tesla.   However, one is hearing more and more about unhappy customers dealing with a nonexistent service network to solve myriad quality issues.   With more established and mature automakers entering the space, EVs’ demand will significantly increase.

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    At my office Tesla is by far the #1 brand for several years now and like said above, several people who have one now had never spent more  than $50-60k on a car before... There are barely any hybrids around, people want EV, not some already obsolete inefficient half baked solution.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I will add that my neighbors are not thrilled with their cars.  They like them, but describe them more as toys, not complete automobiles.  It will be interesting to see how Tesla brand loyalty will persist over the next few years.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    The Model X is the best minivan right now, a few of the parents at our son's school traded up their Odyssey and Sienna to Model Xs. 

    With Mercedes not importing their top of the line minivan Vanos to North American, Model X has the monopoly for premium luxury minivans all to themselves.

    Perfect for school runs. 

    I can see Porsche make good inroad to that minivan market if they blow up the Mission E to like a Model X shape. 

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Categorize is any way you want but the X is also replacing a lot of 7/8 seaters SUV for soccer moms... Many Model X buyers would never buy a minivan, that’s where the genius of the design went...


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    SciFrog:

    Categorize is any way you want but the X is also replacing a lot of 7/8 seaters SUV for soccer moms... Many Model X buyers would never buy a minivan, that’s where the genius of the design went...

     

    Yes, the design is brilliant, making a minivan that looks like a crossover to attractive customers that would have never consider a minivan. Hats off to Elon for that, much better execution than the Pontiac Aztec.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Basically the X is its own category: large practical 7 seater crossover AWD...


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    SciFrog:

    Basically the X is its own category: large practical 7 seater crossover AWD...

    Agreed, but it looks hideous  - and I know these things are subjective Smiley.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    It would be nice if you could easily remove seats in a Model X and configure it to either have mucho leg room by removing the middle row or easy storage there, or remove the back row for more trunk storage if you need it there.


     
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