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    Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo?

    I'm about to change my 996 Turbo, but the 997 Turbo doesn't seem a big leap forward in term of sheer pace.
    This is why, wanting a daily useable car, I began considering the RT12 an alternative, especially in the 4wd 650hp version, more than other alternatives as the Carrera GT or the F599 Fiorano, which are way too much a head-turners for my tastes.
    But some points are still not clear to me about the RUF:
    - What are the service intervals and overall reliability of the RT12?
    - What will be the residual value of the car in about 3-4 years?
    - Is there a true demand of used Rufs in Europe? Or even, does Ruf usually agrees to buyback the car?
    - As anyone ever tried one and did it match the expectations?

    I really hope U can give me some hints!

    PS: By the way, a 997 GT2 with PDK and sufficiently light/powerful could resolve my dilemmas... IF IT WILL EVER COME OUT!!!

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo?

    I love it: a 650hp beast as a 'daily useable car'! Have fun

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo

    re gemini: check rennlist, there are a few rt12 users there that could offer a lot more pertinent information

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo

    gt2 will be released for the IAA

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo?

    Quote:
    gemini_zar said:
    I'm about to change my 996 Turbo, but the 997 Turbo doesn't seem a big leap forward in term of sheer pace.
    This is why, wanting a daily useable car, I began considering the RT12 an alternative, especially in the 4wd 650hp version, more than other alternatives as the Carrera GT or the F599 Fiorano, which are way too much a head-turners for my tastes.
    But some points are still not clear to me about the RUF:
    - What are the service intervals and overall reliability of the RT12?
    - What will be the residual value of the car in about 3-4 years?
    - Is there a true demand of used Rufs in Europe? Or even, does Ruf usually agrees to buyback the car?
    - As anyone ever tried one and did it match the expectations?

    I really hope U can give me some hints!

    PS: By the way, a 997 GT2 with PDK and sufficiently light/powerful could resolve my dilemmas... IF IT WILL EVER COME OUT!!!



    I also considered the RT12 (briefly) when I had to decide on my next sportscar.

    Major drawbacks which made me focus on other alternatives were:

    - While the engine seems to be pretty powerful RUF cars are usually not top-of-the-league when it comes to track performance / suspension setup
    - I believe that 650hp in a car like this are far beyond what one could call reliable...
    - ... which is reflected in the kind of warranty you will get for this car

    As I drive my cars quite a lot (including a lot of intense high-speed AB travels) I don't think the RT12 is the right car for me.

    The GT2 is very unlikely to get PSM - thus, not comparable to a 997TT in terms of safety standards.

    While I agree with you on the benefits of an understated design (997TT, RT12 etc.) I finally reached the point where the 599GTB emerged as the only reasonable package left...

    Porsche has nothing to offer beyond the standard 997TT. Sad but true.

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo?

    Thanks MKSGR!
    From what you are saying, your use of the car is pretty similar to mine... So your doubts about the RUF reliability just add up to mines
    Also the ease of the reselling of the RT12 seems to be a really huge obstacle to it's purchase...
    Unfortunately I'm living in Rome, and the 599 GTB, even if absolutely stunning, is impossible to be driven here without getting too much "attention" (it's an euphemism...;)
    Maybe I'll wait some more to see if the powerkit for the Turbo will be presented, and if it could be a better base for a little further power enhancement!
    But here again... No disclosures about availability...

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo?

    Quote:
    gemini_zar said:
    Thanks MKSGR!
    From what you are saying, your use of the car is pretty similar to mine... So your doubts about the RUF reliability just add up to mines
    Also the ease of the reselling of the RT12 seems to be a really huge obstacle to it's purchase...
    Unfortunately I'm living in Rome, and the 599 GTB, even if absolutely stunning, is impossible to be driven here without getting too much "attention" (it's an euphemism...;)
    Maybe I'll wait some more to see if the powerkit for the Turbo will be presented, and if it could be a better base for a little further power enhancement!
    But here again... No disclosures about availability...



    Except are you guys sure the 599 will be "reliable?"

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo?

    Quote:
    gemini_zar said:
    Thanks MKSGR!
    From what you are saying, your use of the car is pretty similar to mine... So your doubts about the RUF reliability just add up to mines
    Also the ease of the reselling of the RT12 seems to be a really huge obstacle to it's purchase...
    Unfortunately I'm living in Rome, and the 599 GTB, even if absolutely stunning, is impossible to be driven here without getting too much "attention" (it's an euphemism...;)
    Maybe I'll wait some more to see if the powerkit for the Turbo will be presented, and if it could be a better base for a little further power enhancement!
    But here again... No disclosures about availability...



    Waiting for the PK might be a good decision then. Chances are high that PK will be available spring / summer 2008

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo?

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    gemini_zar said:
    Thanks MKSGR!
    From what you are saying, your use of the car is pretty similar to mine... So your doubts about the RUF reliability just add up to mines
    Also the ease of the reselling of the RT12 seems to be a really huge obstacle to it's purchase...
    Unfortunately I'm living in Rome, and the 599 GTB, even if absolutely stunning, is impossible to be driven here without getting too much "attention" (it's an euphemism...;)
    Maybe I'll wait some more to see if the powerkit for the Turbo will be presented, and if it could be a better base for a little further power enhancement!
    But here again... No disclosures about availability...



    Except are you guys sure the 599 will be "reliable?"



    Right now it is more of a hope However, the 599GTB comes with an official 3 year warranty. Also, should it not prove reliable it is easy to sell it with only very limited depreciation

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo?

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    gemini_zar said:
    Thanks MKSGR!
    From what you are saying, your use of the car is pretty similar to mine... So your doubts about the RUF reliability just add up to mines
    Also the ease of the reselling of the RT12 seems to be a really huge obstacle to it's purchase...
    Unfortunately I'm living in Rome, and the 599 GTB, even if absolutely stunning, is impossible to be driven here without getting too much "attention" (it's an euphemism...;)
    Maybe I'll wait some more to see if the powerkit for the Turbo will be presented, and if it could be a better base for a little further power enhancement!
    But here again... No disclosures about availability...



    Except are you guys sure the 599 will be "reliable?"



    Right now it is more of a hope However, the 599GTB comes with an official 3 year warranty. Also, should it not prove reliable it is easy to sell it with only very limited depreciation



    This is true.

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo?

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    gemini_zar said:
    I'm about to change my 996 Turbo, but the 997 Turbo doesn't seem a big leap forward in term of sheer pace.
    This is why, wanting a daily useable car, I began considering the RT12 an alternative, especially in the 4wd 650hp version, more than other alternatives as the Carrera GT or the F599 Fiorano, which are way too much a head-turners for my tastes.
    But some points are still not clear to me about the RUF:
    - What are the service intervals and overall reliability of the RT12?
    - What will be the residual value of the car in about 3-4 years?
    - Is there a true demand of used Rufs in Europe? Or even, does Ruf usually agrees to buyback the car?
    - As anyone ever tried one and did it match the expectations?

    I really hope U can give me some hints!

    PS: By the way, a 997 GT2 with PDK and sufficiently light/powerful could resolve my dilemmas... IF IT WILL EVER COME OUT!!!



    I also considered the RT12 (briefly) when I had to decide on my next sportscar.

    Major drawbacks which made me focus on other alternatives were:

    - While the engine seems to be pretty powerful RUF cars are usually not top-of-the-league when it comes to track performance / suspension setup
    - I believe that 650hp in a car like this are far beyond what one could call reliable...
    - ... which is reflected in the kind of warranty you will get for this car

    As I drive my cars quite a lot (including a lot of intense high-speed AB travels) I don't think the RT12 is the right car for me.

    The GT2 is very unlikely to get PSM - thus, not comparable to a 997TT in terms of safety standards.

    While I agree with you on the benefits of an understated design (997TT, RT12 etc.) I finally reached the point where the 599GTB emerged as the only reasonable package left...

    Porsche has nothing to offer beyond the standard 997TT. Sad but true.



    MKGSR-
    Did you consider an SLR:)?

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo?

    Quote:
    bostonmini said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    gemini_zar said:
    I'm about to change my 996 Turbo, but the 997 Turbo doesn't seem a big leap forward in term of sheer pace.
    This is why, wanting a daily useable car, I began considering the RT12 an alternative, especially in the 4wd 650hp version, more than other alternatives as the Carrera GT or the F599 Fiorano, which are way too much a head-turners for my tastes.
    But some points are still not clear to me about the RUF:
    - What are the service intervals and overall reliability of the RT12?
    - What will be the residual value of the car in about 3-4 years?
    - Is there a true demand of used Rufs in Europe? Or even, does Ruf usually agrees to buyback the car?
    - As anyone ever tried one and did it match the expectations?

    I really hope U can give me some hints!

    PS: By the way, a 997 GT2 with PDK and sufficiently light/powerful could resolve my dilemmas... IF IT WILL EVER COME OUT!!!



    I also considered the RT12 (briefly) when I had to decide on my next sportscar.

    Major drawbacks which made me focus on other alternatives were:

    - While the engine seems to be pretty powerful RUF cars are usually not top-of-the-league when it comes to track performance / suspension setup
    - I believe that 650hp in a car like this are far beyond what one could call reliable...
    - ... which is reflected in the kind of warranty you will get for this car

    As I drive my cars quite a lot (including a lot of intense high-speed AB travels) I don't think the RT12 is the right car for me.

    The GT2 is very unlikely to get PSM - thus, not comparable to a 997TT in terms of safety standards.

    While I agree with you on the benefits of an understated design (997TT, RT12 etc.) I finally reached the point where the 599GTB emerged as the only reasonable package left...

    Porsche has nothing to offer beyond the standard 997TT. Sad but true.



    MKGSR-
    Did you consider an SLR:)?



    No, never though about the SLR... While I have never driven one I feel that the 599 is the more advanced / refined product. Also, I like Ferrari more than Mercedes and the F1 more than an auto tranny. If I had to guess I would also speculate that the handling of the 599 is superior to the SLR. Acceleration performance should be pretty similar, though

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo?

    Hey guys maybe I will be able to help! The RT12 despite having 650hp is actually surpirisingly easy to use in everyday situtations (says a close friend of mine), 2ndly the RT12 is available it about 4 levels of power output. IE you don't have to plump for the full 650hp if you dont want...maybe 550 or somthing might be more appropriate. 4wd is also available as an option and is something (again in my friends eyes) worth considering. As for relability...for a 650hp car its surprisingly good but its not reflected in the warranty..the main sticking point will be the resale..a gt2 would be far easier to shift... but then again, why buy the car just on resale-ability? Go buy a silver 330d if you want resale! Final word...ruf's not being quick on the track?!! Have you every been in a RUF on the track? The chances are that you can hardly exploit all of the power even from a base 911 let alone a 650hp one..plenty quick enough. hope this helps!

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo

    Come on RUF not being reliable or even fast on the track? Here is a vid or two about a street legal RUF up against some of Porsche's top cars at Rennsport Reunion II.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrfdcGbI994

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqkC47PQPkQ

    Ask "hersperus" on Rennlist.org as he owns and thrashes his RT12 650 hp. It has done a few laps on the 'Ring as well after delivery.

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo

    I drove a Ruf CTR a few years back straight after driving the current 911 turbo: no comparison, the Ruf was way better in every area. Good chance the same applies today but lets not forget the price difference!

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo

    Quote:
    harryo2b said:
    Ask "hersperus" on Rennlist.org as he owns and thrashes his RT12 650 hp. It has done a few laps on the 'Ring as well after delivery.



    hey i'm here too!

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo

    So is that RT12 a great car or what? I saw an orange one about 8 months ago and it's been the only one I have ever seen. That must be the ultimate Porsche! How would you rate it as an every day super car?

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo

    Quote:
    rhino said:
    So is that RT12 a great car or what? I saw an orange one about 8 months ago and it's been the only one I have ever seen. That must be the ultimate Porsche! How would you rate it as an every day super car?



    i'd say its a supremely usable every day supercar:

    1) not as flashy as many other exotica;
    2) mega easy to drive (easier to drive in stop-start traffic than even a 100% stock 996 Turbo);
    3) with the optional hydraulic suspension lift, the car can easily negotiate speedbumps, inclines, etc;

    the only thing that makes the car a less usable on a daily basis vs say, a 997TT, is the exhaust. between around 2.5k-3k, there's a moment of resonance where it "drones" a bit. hardly ear shattering, but certainly very mildly annoying on the motorway.

    but no more so than any free-er flowing 911 turbo exhaust, mind...

    cheers

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo

    Thank you hesperus!

    Did you had any problems regarding the reliability of the car? How is the servicing provided by a small car factory as Ruf around the globe (i.e. Philippines, Italy,...)?
    I don't know how are the driving conditions in your country, but in Italy we can still drive pretty fast (continuous driving in the 200-300kph range...) without too many troubles!

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo

    Thats a very special car, you have exellence taste

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo?

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    gemini_zar said:
    Thanks MKSGR!
    From what you are saying, your use of the car is pretty similar to mine... So your doubts about the RUF reliability just add up to mines
    Also the ease of the reselling of the RT12 seems to be a really huge obstacle to it's purchase...
    Unfortunately I'm living in Rome, and the 599 GTB, even if absolutely stunning, is impossible to be driven here without getting too much "attention" (it's an euphemism...;)
    Maybe I'll wait some more to see if the powerkit for the Turbo will be presented, and if it could be a better base for a little further power enhancement!
    But here again... No disclosures about availability...



    Except are you guys sure the 599 will be "reliable?"



    Right now it is more of a hope However, the 599GTB comes with an official 3 year warranty. Also, should it not prove reliable it is easy to sell it with only very limited depreciation


    If the 599GTB is anything like my 575F1 then it will drop like a stone in depreciation terms.50% of the value in 18 months. It was also prohibitive to maintain even if you hardly ran it. Reliability is an issue too. Build quality was another downer.Modern V12 front engine Ferraris have never held up well!Sorry to be so negative about Ferrari but my experience wasnt a good one, the depreciation has probably tainted my view a bit.

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo?

    Quote:
    turbo'S' said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    gemini_zar said:
    Thanks MKSGR!
    From what you are saying, your use of the car is pretty similar to mine... So your doubts about the RUF reliability just add up to mines
    Also the ease of the reselling of the RT12 seems to be a really huge obstacle to it's purchase...
    Unfortunately I'm living in Rome, and the 599 GTB, even if absolutely stunning, is impossible to be driven here without getting too much "attention" (it's an euphemism...;)
    Maybe I'll wait some more to see if the powerkit for the Turbo will be presented, and if it could be a better base for a little further power enhancement!
    But here again... No disclosures about availability...



    Except are you guys sure the 599 will be "reliable?"



    Right now it is more of a hope However, the 599GTB comes with an official 3 year warranty. Also, should it not prove reliable it is easy to sell it with only very limited depreciation


    If the 599GTB is anything like my 575F1 then it will drop like a stone in depreciation terms.50% of the value in 18 months. It was also prohibitive to maintain even if you hardly ran it. Reliability is an issue too. Build quality was another downer.Modern V12 front engine Ferraris have never held up well!Sorry to be so negative about Ferrari but my experience wasnt a good one, the depreciation has probably tainted my view a bit.



    No risk, no fun

    BTW: Should I need to sell the 599GTB Porsche might eventually offer some reasonably powered car by then (PK, GT2, whatever). Right now Porsche has nothing to offer me However, if the 599 should prove to be reliable I might never buy a Porsche again

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo?

    "Some reasonably powered car" Are you kidding me? Now I am a huge fan of horsepower, but to say your 599 has a reasonable amount of power and that the 997tt is unreasonably underpowered is absolutly ridiculous. If a car can do 0-200 kph in 12.1 (or better) I would say it has more than a reasonable amount of power.

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo?

    Quote:
    trip said:
    "Some reasonably powered car" Are you kidding me? Now I am a huge fan of horsepower, but to say your 599 has a reasonable amount of power and that the 997tt is unreasonably underpowered is absolutly ridiculous. If a car can do 0-200 kph in 12.1 (or better) I would say it has more than a reasonable amount of power.



    trip, you don't understand where us Europeans stand on this. It isn't about 0-200 km/h here. It's all about 200-300 km/h. The 599 does it 10 seconds quicker than the Turbo . And yes, the Turbo is blisteringly quick (quick enough for me), but Markus has already previously owned an X50 TT, so for him the only logical move was a 599.

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo?

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    trip said:
    "Some reasonably powered car" Are you kidding me? Now I am a huge fan of horsepower, but to say your 599 has a reasonable amount of power and that the 997tt is unreasonably underpowered is absolutly ridiculous. If a car can do 0-200 kph in 12.1 (or better) I would say it has more than a reasonable amount of power.



    trip, you don't understand where us Europeans stand on this. It isn't about 0-200 km/h here. It's all about 200-300 km/h. The 599 does it 10 seconds quicker than the Turbo . And yes, the Turbo is blisteringly quick (quick enough for me), but Markus has already previously owned an X50 TT, so for him the only logical move was a 599.



    Exactly

    In addition, I could not buy a 997TT as I feel that Porsche should not be supported for their mediocre (if not worse) product policy.

    It was clear from the start (at least for those at Porsche who knew the specs) that the 997TT would face fierce competition. What did they do? They introduced a car which is just plain average (in the sportscar league of course).

    Same performance level as Gallardo, F430, Z06 etc. They should have offered 520hp from the start - in order to preserve the TT's history of excellence and superior performance. They not even offer a PK. The GT2 is still light years away and will most likely not come with PSM.

    As things are, I am not a customer of the 997TT. Thesy lost me.

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo?

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    trip said:
    "Some reasonably powered car" Are you kidding me? Now I am a huge fan of horsepower, but to say your 599 has a reasonable amount of power and that the 997tt is unreasonably underpowered is absolutly ridiculous. If a car can do 0-200 kph in 12.1 (or better) I would say it has more than a reasonable amount of power.



    trip, you don't understand where us Europeans stand on this. It isn't about 0-200 km/h here. It's all about 200-300 km/h. The 599 does it 10 seconds quicker than the Turbo . And yes, the Turbo is blisteringly quick (quick enough for me), but Markus has already previously owned an X50 TT, so for him the only logical move was a 599.



    Exactly

    In addition, I could not buy a 997TT as I feel that Porsche should not be supported for their mediocre (if not worse) product policy.

    It was clear from the start (at least for those at Porsche who knew the specs) that the 997TT would face fierce competition. What did they do? They introduced a car which is just plain average (in the sportscar league of course).

    Same performance level as Gallardo, F430, Z06 etc. They should have offered 520hp from the start - in order to preserve the TT's history of excellence and superior performance. They not even offer a PK. The GT2 is still light years away and will most likely not come with PSM.

    As things are, I am not a customer of the 997TT. Thesy lost me.



    When we first got the official numbers from the TT I had a hard time understanding MKSGR's point of view, but shortly after I understood whole heartedly. Porsche dropped the ball in the endzone purposely. They should have offered the TT with at least 520hp from the start. This car was supposed to kill the competition but in reality it just keeps up.

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo?

    Quote:
    rhino said:
    When we first got the official numbers from the TT I had a hard time understanding MKSGR's point of view, but shortly after I understood whole heartedly. Porsche dropped the ball in the endzone purposely. They should have offered the TT with at least 520hp from the start. This car was supposed to kill the competition but in reality it just keeps up.



    The unfortunate thing is: as fans we all suffer from this product strategy. It is not that one can enjoy not buying their cars any longer. Hopefully, Porsche will learn from their mistakes and come up with some nice ideas for the 998TT

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo?

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:

    Exactly

    In addition, I could not buy a 997TT as I feel that Porsche should not be supported for their mediocre (if not worse) product policy.

    It was clear from the start (at least for those at Porsche who knew the specs) that the 997TT would face fierce competition. What did they do? They introduced a car which is just plain average (in the sportscar league of course).

    Same performance level as Gallardo, F430, Z06 etc. They should have offered 520hp from the start - in order to preserve the TT's history of excellence and superior performance. They not even offer a PK. The GT2 is still light years away and will most likely not come with PSM.

    As things are, I am not a customer of the 997TT. Thesy lost me.



    absolutely. the 964 Turbo was a beast, and virtually untouched at the time (though interestingly, it was often compared with the 'Vette ZR-1 back then, and the two ran each other quite close, at least in a straightline).

    the 993TT moved the goalposts completely. there were no contemporary supercars that realistically came close.

    the 996TT may not have been quite as crushingly superior, but it wasn't far off.

    as others have pointed out, the 997TT is a COMPETENT effort, and it takes the notion of an "everyday supercar" another notch.

    but IMO it is not the "air superiority fighter" the earlier Turbos once were...

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo?

    Quote:
    hesperus said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:

    Exactly

    In addition, I could not buy a 997TT as I feel that Porsche should not be supported for their mediocre (if not worse) product policy.

    It was clear from the start (at least for those at Porsche who knew the specs) that the 997TT would face fierce competition. What did they do? They introduced a car which is just plain average (in the sportscar league of course).

    Same performance level as Gallardo, F430, Z06 etc. They should have offered 520hp from the start - in order to preserve the TT's history of excellence and superior performance. They not even offer a PK. The GT2 is still light years away and will most likely not come with PSM.

    As things are, I am not a customer of the 997TT. Thesy lost me.



    absolutely. the 964 Turbo was a beast, and virtually untouched at the time (though interestingly, it was often compared with the 'Vette ZR-1 back then, and the two ran each other quite close, at least in a straightline).

    the 993TT moved the goalposts completely. there were no contemporary supercars that realistically came close.

    the 996TT may not have been quite as crushingly superior, but it wasn't far off.

    as others have pointed out, the 997TT is a COMPETENT effort, and it takes the notion of an "everyday supercar" another notch.

    but IMO it is not the "air superiority fighter" the earlier Turbos once were...




    Porsche is somewhat limited by their engine design. They need to retain a flat-6 and keep the engine light. Thus, anything over 4 litres would probably be too much (you can't get more than 600 reliable bhp out of a 3.6, so at the most we are dealing with 650 bhp). If Porsche increased powr of the Turbo to 520 bhp, the Powerkit would then need 550 bhp, the GT2 at least as much and they've pretty much maxed out the 3.6-litre engine. Increase displacement to 4 litres and you get another 100 bhp or so. Good for the 998, but no further than that. This is what the problem is IMO. With the horsepower wars slowly, but surely drawing to an end (I don't foresee even high-end cars going much past 700 bhp), it is weight which will be the deciding factor. In any case, weight reduction is the next big thing and I don't believe that even Markus requires much more than 600 bhp in his car .

    Re: Is the Ruf RT12 a serious alternative to Turbo?

    OOW did anybody know that there is talk at Porsche that they are going for a flat 8. you cannot make a flat 6 any bigger then 3.8 at a push 4.0 so past that u need more and the 998 Maybe very well see the flat 8 with a larger 4.0 engine in it might make things alittle more interesting

     
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