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    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    I hear what you are saying but I just can't see it happening.....

    I am running Conti Vmaxes in correct sizes on my 997GT2 non N rated but developed for the 997s by Techart (and others) for ultra fast tuned cars, with these sizes specifically for 997s...... I actually only got them after seeing them on a GT2 in Munich and deciding that I had had enough of driving at 60mph on rain soaked motorways using N0/N1 Michelin Cup tyres...... I just can't see any expert being able to discredit or blame these tyres for an accident


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    2009 997 GT2


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    I am not sure what N rated tire means other than Porsche has blessed this tire for its car. I have not looked at my manual but I doubt Porsche makes mandatory to use only N rated tires.They probably only recommend N tires. Even if they did state it was mandatory, it would only relate to the efficiency of the driving capabilities of the car.

    Insurance companies are not concerned with the make of tires so long as the tires fit. No doubt some tires give the car better performance than others but that has little to do with insurability. That said, when was the last time any of you have been asked the ratings of tires on a car by an insurance company?

    Some may ask what happens if there is an accident and it is shown that the Porsche had non N tires. Does that make the driver liable? In most if not all cases the answer would be no. It has to do with causation and proximate cause. Rather than bore you with a treatise on proximate cause let me cite this example.

    Driver A while doing the speed limit enters an intersection while the light is green. Driver A is intoxicated. Driver B enters the intersection at the same time but the light is red for him and he collides with driver A? Who is at fault? Both?

    Nope, driver B is totally at fault and A's intoxication would be excluded from evidence UNLESS somehow his intoxication worsen his injuries.

    The point is unless there is a connection by the preponderance of the evidence that failure to have N tires caused an accident, not having N rated tires would not be admissible.

     


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    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    TB993tt:

    I am running Conti Vmaxes 

     

    How do you find there tires ? At the moment at my tyre dealer the Conti's and the Bridgestones are available ( N rated ) and I need to change tires.

    I was going for the Bridg, as I know them, but now I wonder about these Conti ? 


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     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    N-rated tires means that Weissach tested the car with those tires and all is well, especially ABS. Note that N-rating is car/model specific. Even if PAG N-rates the PSS for the 991 it does not mean they will be N-rated for the 997; we shall see.

    It does not mean that other tires will not perform well and the car be equally safe, but we just do not know. Re ABS... there have been several ABS reported failures (Ice Mode) which may be related to tires that fall outside the ABS control characteristics.

     

     

     


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    _________________________________________________________________ 

    "Dream as impractical, irrational and unnecessary as that may be... Here's to the Dreamers!" -- Porsche AG.


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    Gnil:
    TB993tt:

    I am running Conti Vmaxes 

     

    How do you find there tires ? At the moment at my tyre dealer the Conti's and the Bridgestones are available ( N rated ) and I need to change tires.

    I was going for the Bridg, as I know them, but now I wonder about these Conti ? 

    They don't feel as sticky as the Mich Cups but then they wouldn't seeing Mich treadwear rating is 80 and the Contis 280 !!

    If you read the blurb the vmaxes have quite a few strengthening differences (as well as reduced tread) to enable them to cope with 220mph speeds but they are based on the regular contisport which is a good tyre. The design is maybe 7 years old now so they are not cutting edge any more. I am not tracking the car so have not been able to truly assess the cornering vs the mich cup but suffice to say that it will not be as good, as far as traction they are pretty much on a par with the cups and I feel much happier pressing on in the rain.....

    The next must have tyres will be the new Mich PSS when they do the 325 size next year and I will be installing these regardless of N rating :)


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    2009 997 GT2


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    TB993tt:
    Gnil:
    TB993tt:

    I am running Conti Vmaxes 

     

    How do you find there tires ? At the moment at my tyre dealer the Conti's and the Bridgestones are available ( N rated ) and I need to change tires.

    I was going for the Bridg, as I know them, but now I wonder about these Conti ? 

    They don't feel as sticky as the Mich Cups but then they wouldn't seeing Mich treadwear rating is 80 and the Contis 280 !!

    If you read the blurb the vmaxes have quite a few strengthening differences (as well as reduced tread) to enable them to cope with 220mph speeds but they are based on the regular contisport which is a good tyre. The design is maybe 7 years old now so they are not cutting edge any more. I am not tracking the car so have not been able to truly assess the cornering vs the mich cup but suffice to say that it will not be as good, as far as traction they are pretty much on a par with the cups and I feel much happier pressing on in the rain.....

    The next must have tyres will be the new Mich PSS when they do the 325 size next year and I will be installing these regardless of N rating :)

    Thanks for the info. Of course they are match to a cup as they are aimed at street driving. Good to hear that you are happy with them .... I will see what I do. The MSS are available for my rim size ( 295 ) but I would prefer then to be N ...


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     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

     The MSS are available for my rim size ( 295 ) but I would prefer then to be N ...

     

    I would not be surprised if PAG does not  N-rate the PSS for the 997 series... That is a way of 'obsoleting' the previous model. Unfortunately, no newer tires were N-rated in 18s for the 996 series either.


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    _________________________________________________________________ 

    "Dream as impractical, irrational and unnecessary as that may be... Here's to the Dreamers!" -- Porsche AG.


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

     new corsas.. Amazing traction


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    GT:

     new corsas.. Amazing traction

    Yep. A Turbo with Bilstein coilover and R compound is the pinnacle of 997 Turbo's performance potential, and is the car I *thought* I was getting when I bought it way back when. Heavy, stiff, lowered, mean, and of course, fast as h***.

    As soon as the P. Corsa went on, I knew I've found my Holy Grail. Never would have imagined tire could make such a huge difference. I appreciate the Super Sport's comfort, but in a few months when the rattling in my brain has had time to settle down Smiley, I am looking at another set of P. Corsa or Michelin Cup.


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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    ADias:

     The MSS are available for my rim size ( 295 ) but I would prefer then to be N ...

     I would not be surprised if PAG does not  N-rate the PSS for the 997 series... That is a way of 'obsoleting' the previous model. Unfortunately, no newer tires were N-rated in 18s for the 996 series either.

    You may be correct re. the 'obsoleting', but its also possible that Porsche just does not have enough influence on tire makers to insist that they make special N rated tires in perpetuity (= how long the 911 has been around... Smiley ).   We know that collectors of quite old cars always struggle with finding tires, even getting something in the correct size is difficult let alone worrying about small performance variations.  Or needing to trust tires that are correct but were made many years ago (eg. Mike and his CGT example).  So somewhere along the iine when a car like the 911 is replaced with a new model, Porsche must start the process of softening the insistence on N spec tires for older models, since they know that they cannot force Michelin etc. to make them in backwards compatible sizes for every 911 variant going back forever.  If in fact they don't issue N spec for 997 size PSS tires, then it suggests that now they start this softening process quickly.

    Nevertheless, I am also ordering a set of PSS to replace my RE050 tires, which are close to worn out after this summer.   PS2 is being phased out so there will essentially be no choice for Michelins, and like Cannga and Futch, I am satisfied with Michelin's testing so far.  My dealer has stock now, I know they must be new production tires, so no point in procrastinating.  Smiley


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    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    4trac:
    Nevertheless, I am also ordering a set of PSS to replace my RE050 tires, which are close to worn out after this summer.   PS2 is being phased out so there will essentially be no choice for Michelins, and like Cannga and Futch, I am satisfied with Michelin's testing so far.  My dealer has stock now, I know they must be new production tires, so no point in procrastinating.  Smiley

     

    Are your RE050A N1? If yes, I would be very interested in your comparison between those and the new PSS. Try to compare the PSS (after 3-400km) to your recollection of new RE050A N1 re grip, road-holding, rolling noise (at the same cold pressures 34/40PSI).

    TIA!

    P.S. - It's interesting your saying that PS2s are being phased out. I have not seen evidence of that in the US yet. If true, what Michelin N-rated tire will be listed by PAG for the 997?


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    _________________________________________________________________ 

    "Dream as impractical, irrational and unnecessary as that may be... Here's to the Dreamers!" -- Porsche AG.


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    @ADias:  The phase-out has been fairly widely quoted, albeit perhaps not directly from Michelin; eg. this in a Feb.2011 Motor Trend review of the PSS (presume the writers got this from a Michelin rep.) :

    "The beloved PS2 will not disappear overnight, but it will be phased out over the next few years. Some of the odd sizes will stay PS2; Michelin will have to look at the market to see if keeping them is worth the cost. The U.S. market gets Michelin PSS as will the European market will get the same tires, but they will be called PS3 in Europe."

    I will post a review once I have enough miles on the new PSS tires; in my region this might be a race against winter weather.... Smiley



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    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    4trac:

    ... The U.S. market gets Michelin PSS as will the European market will get the same tires, but they will be called PS3 in Europe."


     

    That is very strange. The PS3 is supposed to be a very different tire. A tire below the PS2 performance rank.


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    _________________________________________________________________ 

    "Dream as impractical, irrational and unnecessary as that may be... Here's to the Dreamers!" -- Porsche AG.


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    As I was saying  Smiley, weight at the tire is bad for several reasons, and this is where part of my criticism of the Super Sport arises. These are some of the issues I could think of or have read about (search forum if you want to see more details):

    1. Linear momentum - the up and down motion of the wheel/tire, from road irregularities and in corners. Increased weight/linear momentum affects the coilover directly and ride/handling indirectly.
    2. Angular momentum - the rotational motion of the wheel/tire. Because angular momentum is proportional to radius, weight gain at the tire - as opposed to more centrally, at the rim for example - is particularly harmful. Increased angular momentum decreases efficiency of acceleration and braking.

    3. Gyroscopic precession: Just mentioning this word causes me to have a headache. I am more or less repeating what was told to me, so please be patient and don't ask too many questions LOL.
    The spinning wheel takes on the behavior of a gyroscope, and as such, it precesses when an external force is applied. In the case of the wheel the external force is road irregularities, which would cause it to precess in a direction perpendicular to the external force. End result? Decreased stability from the wobbling force. Gyroscopic effect also makes a heavier wheel more resistant to change in direction (steering).

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The list is courtesy of Tire Rack's Tires for Porsche 997 Turbo 235/35-19 front, 305/30-19 rear, pls correct any mistake as needed. The number in bold are the weights of one front plus one rear tire.
    R compound Michelin Cup: front/rear 20/27 = 47 lbs
    R comp Pirelli Corsa: 21/26 = 47
    Continental Extreme Contact DW: 21/28 = 49
    Hoosier R6 (not street tire, 315/30-19 rear): 22/27 = 49
    Michelin PS2: 22/28 = 50*************************************
    Continental SportContact 3: 22/28 = 50
    Pirelli Rosso: 22/29 = 51
    Michelin Pilot Super Sport: 25/30 = 55****************************************
    Bridgestone RE050A: 24/31 = 55
    Hankook Ventus V12: 24/32=56
    R comp Toyo Roxes R888: 25/31 = 56
    Bridgestone RE11: 27/32 = 59


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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    Wikipedia Gyroscopic Precession:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession
    Good luck! Smiley

    Precession is a change in the orientation of the rotation axis of a rotating body. It can be defined as a change in direction of the rotation axis in which the second Euler angle (nutation) is constant. In physics, there are two types of precession: torque-free and torque-induced.
    In astronomy, "precession" refers to any of several slow changes in an astronomical body's rotational or orbital parameters, and especially to the Earth's precession of the equinoxes. See Precession (astronomy).

    1315244288271Gyroscope_precession.gif


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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    So... did I lose everyone with my adventure into gyroscopic precession?  Trust me this is a lot more relevant than you might think. For example, the earth itself precesses around its axis as it spins. IIRC, the wobble takes 26,000 years for one cycle. Exciting info, no?

    Anyway, at least in comparison with PS2, with further experience with the Pilot Super Sport, I am more convinced that outside of the longer tread wear and cheaper price, this tire is more of an evolutionary, not revolutionary, step from the PS2. Michelin ad material built up the hype, but I am not as impressed as I hoped to be. In other words, for sure it's a very good street tire, but it's not a night and day jump over PS2 IMHO. Unfortunately, I have no track time comparison to report. It would be interesting to see actual test times against PS2, a lighter tire.

    Michelin makes a huge claim about the track time improvement, stating, without indicating against which tire, that the PSS shows a 2 second difference over a 1.6 mile course. That seems an awful lot to me, based on my experience with the tire so far.  I have some reservation about this claim until proven otherwise.
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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    Is it quieter than the PS2? Is it a quiet tire on standard road surfaces?


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    _________________________________________________________________ 

    "Dream as impractical, irrational and unnecessary as that may be... Here's to the Dreamers!" -- Porsche AG.


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    ADias, for my standard, Super Sport is a quiet tire on standard road surfaces, at least at this point, when it's brand new. Do keep in mind I used R comp, so my "standard" may not be "normal."

    Comparison to PS2 is very tricky because as mentioned, I compared old PS2 to new Super Sport, and tires do become stiffer and noisier as they wear down (less rubber and old rubber). In other words I didn't hold all variables constant in my comparison.  In addition, without instrumented-testing, if the difference is not big, it's very hard for me to tell. I would say that noise is also very close, perhaps a little noisier with Super Sport. So... a little noisier, a little stiffer, but not significantly different. And I would like to hear others' inputs as well.

    Where the Super Sport could be a game changer is that it almost disconnects the relationship between treadwear rating and traction. In other words, I tend to look at a tire's treadwear rating to guess how sticky it is. With the Super Sport, you know there is something "big" going on because  if you look at its treadwear rating of 300, you wouldn't think its traction could better those of tires with treadwear of say 200. But it seems like it does.


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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    4trac:

    @ADias:  The phase-out has been fairly widely quoted, albeit perhaps not directly from Michelin; eg. this in a Feb.2011 Motor Trend review of the PSS (presume the writers got this from a Michelin rep.) :

    "The beloved PS2 will not disappear overnight, but it will be phased out over the next few years. Some of the odd sizes will stay PS2; Michelin will have to look at the market to see if keeping them is worth the cost. The U.S. market gets Michelin PSS as will the European market will get the same tires, but they will be called PS3 in Europe."

    I will post a review once I have enough miles on the new PSS tires; in my region this might be a race against winter weather.... Smiley

    OK, time to revive our Michelin thread one last time before many of us in the northern latitudes put our Porsches to bed for the winter months.   I have now used our new PSS tires on the 997S for a month, albeit usually in cool fall conditions ~ 10C temps.  My conclusions are:

    - this is a very quiet tire on most surfaces - as Cannga noted this is not entirely fair as we always end up comparing old worn tires with new ones, but remembering the RE050 tires as they were before they were worn, the PSS is very quiet on smooth asphalt surface roads  (the RE050 sometimes had a wah-wah resonance on very new roads), and the usual 911 hum/resonance noises on more pebbly surface roads is slightly reduced - more of a "sizzle" sound (The RE050 tires had a pronounced howl on pebbly surfaces - a bit tiring if driving on lots of this type of road).

    - the PSS tire seems a bit less abrupt, ie softer, in hitting lateral ridges - the RE050 transmit quite a sharp thump by comparison

    - difficult to really "test" cornering in normal highway driving obviously, so we need to trust the more controlled tests for this.  But general feel is very quiet cornering as speeds and lateral g's build up, still offering good feel through the steering wheel as understeer builds up.  Keep in mind we never saw temps over 15C since install, so tires are not truly fully warm.

    - straight ahead driving is very good, not much tendency to tramline in longitudinal low spots in road, possibly just a touch less initial bite on initial movement of the wheel than the RE050 had, but I would need more time to be sure of that, and also did an alignment so that could have influenced initial steering response. 

    Overall I am pleased with the PSS tires so far on a 997 - they seem like tires you can cruise happily in as they are not punishing tires despite their more track-like tread design, and also push harder when the road allows... which will be next year as the cold weather is getting near.  Smiley

     


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    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    Agreed and thanks for your input. That's more or less my impression after a few months.

    1. Quiet and comfortable. Relatively soft side wall.
    2. Impressive traction for street tire.
    3. Significantly cheaper than PS2.
    4. Significantly better tread wear rating than PS2.
    5. Significantly heavier (8 lbs for all 4 wheels) than PS2.

    Judging from action at my local tuner and wheel shop (Wheel Enhancement - one of the biggest Porsche tire shop in the world probably), the Pilot Super Sport is going to be a huge seller for Michelin.
     


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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    What about watter conditions ? On wet roads ? And on higways that are covered with lots of standing watter ?


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     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    I can't tell you from personal experience because I slow way down when road is wet - no testing the limits! But I don't expect wet performance to be any worse than other street tires. Below is from Motortrend.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Bi-Compound Tread isn't a new technology, but Michelin has taken it to the next level. On the outside of the tire, a carbon-reinforced elastomer ensures endurance when cornering. The high-grip elastomer used on the inside allows the tire to break through the water's surface, finding grip on the slightest road irregularities.

    Variable contact patch 2.0 basically means as the patch's shape changes during cornering, the amount of rubber in contact with the road remains the same. Through testing Michelin found that adding any more summer compound gives no real help but actually hurts the winter/wet capabilities. For the new PSS, only the outer 1/5 of the tire is a summer compound, while the remaining 4/5 is a winter/wet compound.

    Click to view GalleryMichelin's in-house testing, performed at the Michelin Technology Center, helped identify six key areas in which the Michelin Pilot Super Sport outperforms its predecessor, the Michelin Pilot Sport PS2:

    •Road-holding on dry surfaces: Tests showed a 1.5-second gain on a 2,700-meter closed-circuit track.
    •Braking on dry surfaces: When decelerating from 100 km/h to a full stop, braking distance was shortened by 1.5 meters.
    •Road-holding on wet surfaces: Time was reduced by 2.5 seconds on a 4,100-meter closed-circuit track.
    •Braking on wet roads: When decelerating from 80 to 10 km/h, braking distance was shortened by 3 meters.

    •Total mileage on the track: 50% more laps.
    •Total mileage on the road: 10% greater distance.

    Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/features/performance/1101_testing_the_michelin_pilot_super_sport/viewall.html#ixzz1cPGte7pR


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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    Thanks Cannga . I am still a bit worried about aquaplaning with the new PSS. I can't see how this tyre can evacuate loads of standing watter yes


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    Gnil:

    Thanks Cannga . I am still a bit worried about aquaplaning with the new PSS. I can't see how this tyre can evacuate loads of standing watter yes

    Gnil, I was at the Porsche festival this July with my Carrera GT and it was pissing down with very heavy rain, which means sadly that I couldn't gauge the performance of the PSS on the track (I went out and spun the car and avoided a bad crash) but on the other hand, the drive back to Paris was throught epic amount of rain, honestly, I had never seen that, no visibility at one stage, all cars driving at 50 kmh, standing water everywhere, and when the traffic was moving, I was cautiously driving behing trucks on the slow lane at 100 kmh and somtimes a bit quicker and not once the PSS defaulted, if that can reassure you.

    And I'm talking 345s here!

     


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    Futch:
    Gnil:

    Thanks Cannga . I am still a bit worried about aquaplaning with the new PSS. I can't see how this tyre can evacuate loads of standing watter yes

    Gnil, I was at the Porsche festival this July with my Carrera GT and it was pissing down with very heavy rain, which means sadly that I couldn't gauge the performance of the PSS on the track (I went out and spun the car and avoided a bad crash) but on the other hand, the drive back to Paris was throught epic amount of rain, honestly, I had never seen that, no visibility at one stage, all cars driving at 50 kmh, standing water everywhere, and when the traffic was moving, I was cautiously driving behing trucks on the slow lane at 100 kmh and somtimes a bit quicker and not once the PSS defaulted, if that can reassure you.

    And I'm talking 345s here!

     

    I can imagine the situation. I once came back from the Nürburgring, with worn out Cups and it was pissing downs heavy rain the whole way back ( 650 km ). 

    Even cars with caravane passed me by as I had to go so slowly on the highway ! Not fun at all !! Maybe I got a bit traumatised Smiley

    Ok..I will try them next time I change my tyres . thanks


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    Gnil:
    Futch:
    Gnil:

    Thanks Cannga . I am still a bit worried about aquaplaning with the new PSS. I can't see how this tyre can evacuate loads of standing watter yes

    Gnil, I was at the Porsche festival this July with my Carrera GT and it was pissing down with very heavy rain, which means sadly that I couldn't gauge the performance of the PSS on the track (I went out and spun the car and avoided a bad crash) but on the other hand, the drive back to Paris was throught epic amount of rain, honestly, I had never seen that, no visibility at one stage, all cars driving at 50 kmh, standing water everywhere, and when the traffic was moving, I was cautiously driving behing trucks on the slow lane at 100 kmh and somtimes a bit quicker and not once the PSS defaulted, if that can reassure you.

    And I'm talking 345s here!

     

    I can imagine the situation. I once came back from the Nürburgring, with worn out Cups and it was pissing downs heavy rain the whole way back ( 650 km ). 

    Even cars with caravane passed me by as I had to go so slowly on the highway ! Not fun at all !! Maybe I got a bit traumatised Smiley

    Ok..I will try them next time I change my tyres . thanks

    Oh I see - if you are comparing Pilot Super Sport to cup (aka r compound) tires, then I have little doubt the Super Sport is much superior on wet roads. When I had my Pirelli Corsa cup tire on, it was more or less nerve wracking when it rains; the Super Sport is much better than that. Without knowing the numbers, I am still certain the Super Sport as a road tire has higher void ratio (amount of empty space over the amount of flat rubber on tire surface), and deeper grooves than cup tires, and therefore drains water better.

    As far as aquaplaning, I don't think there is a way around it with these ultra high performance tire - better traction requires high amount of flat rubber surface, and high amount of flat rubber surface means aquaplaning.

    That said, these tires do vary in their ability to drain water. How the Michelin Super Sport drains water could be seen in its asymmetrical tread pattern, ie the tread design changes as you move across the surface of the tire. The inner part has small tread block to help drain water. The outer part has big tread block, which is not good for draining water but is excellent for dry traction and for increasing stability of the tire during cornering. Therefore: inside for wet traction, outside for dry traction and cornering stability. You could see this in the picture of Super Sport below.

    PSS.jpg

    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    No, Cannga, I was endeed comparing PS ( or silmilar ) to PSS  and not to the cup. I know the cup are in another league, and even when not worn out are pretty bad in wet conditions.

    I was more comparing the PSS to the Bridgestone RE 50 . 

    The RE 50 has more void ratio then the PSS , and the outer part has much more drainage the the PSS. That seems to me that it is better under heavy rain.

    The outer part of the PSS does not look like it can evacuate lots of watter. And will the inner part be enough to evacuate ?

    Look at the Bridgestone :

    modp_0906_27+performance_tire_buyers_guide+bridgestone_potenza_re050a_pole_position.jpg


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Michelin Super Sport vs. P. Corsa & thoughts on tire wall stiffness.

    Gnil, ok I understand your question. For wet performance of tire, I can't and wouldn't want to guess as it is a complicated issue best evaluated with instrumented testing and on a wet track.
    And even all the instrumented testing won't help if you run into a pool of water at high speed. Talk about Holy Macaroni!

    That said, from the intended use of this tire and from my limited experience so far, I think wet performance of PSS is much more similar to PS2, than to any R comps.
    It has not rained in California yet but every Tuesday and Thursday on my way to work I run into a wet curvy freeway entrance, courtesy of over zealous/malfunction plant watering system, and the PSS feels ok. Not like a 4WD truck tire of course, but ok.

    There is a magazine in the US called Consumer Reports that actually has tested wet performance of PSS to be better than PS2. If no one is going to flame me for using Consumer Reports (long story - US readers will understand, essentially these guys are better at evaluating laundry machines than cars), I will scan and post it later.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


     
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