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    997 and sequential shifting

    I just heard the rumour that the new 997 GT3 will be the first 997 to get a sequential shifting system.
    No word about DSG or if this actually will be the DSG system, this is all I have.
    I also don't know if the sequential shifting will be standard or an extra option.

    Yes, I know that the new 997 GT3 Cup gets a sequential shifting but this new rumour is related to the GT3 STREET version.

    Right now it seems that the new 997 GT3 STREET version can be expected for earliest MY 2006, this means summer 2005.
    There is more precise data available but...

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    the straight cut sequential box on the GT3 Cup is too hard for street driving

    i think it may just be th DSG system, there is no other modern system that fits this application. most people will probably still want the 6speed.

    summer 2005 europe? so fall 05 usa i suppose, can't wait.

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    summer 2005 europe? so fall 05 usa i suppose, can't wait.



    EARLIEST...and you have to read "between the lines" too.

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    summer 2005 europe? so fall 05 usa i suppose, can't wait.



    EARLIEST...and you have to read "between the lines" too.



    Well, I'm trying to read between the lines, but the most I can gather is that RC doesn't have info that states that there will be no US 997 GT3 because he gave the sign. Unless RC is evil... which I don't belive he is.

    This would be a good thing, because some people think that the US will not get another GT3 for 4-5 years.

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    in my opinion, the USA shouldn't get a new GT3 for 4/5 years to help preserve the market for the MK2 GT3.

    however, porsche has a history of really not caring about their cars' residuals through their actions.

    anyways. i'm looking at a 05 996 GT3 to complete the stable, and if there was no 997 GT3 in the near future, it woudl surely help my decision

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    Quote:
    Yargk said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    summer 2005 europe? so fall 05 usa i suppose, can't wait.



    EARLIEST...and you have to read "between the lines" too.



    Well, I'm trying to read between the lines, but the most I can gather is that RC doesn't have info that states that there will be no US 997 GT3 because he gave the sign. Unless RC is evil... which I don't belive he is.

    This would be a good thing, because some people think that the US will not get another GT3 for 4-5 years.



    Although if P is as rationally capitalist as it's accused of and given how powerful a market US is, esp for $100K+ cars, I suspect US will get the GT3 promptly....

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    in my opinion, the USA shouldn't get a new GT3 for 4/5 years to help preserve the market for the MK2 GT3.

    however, porsche has a history of really not caring about their cars' residuals through their actions.

    anyways. i'm looking at a 05 996 GT3 to complete the stable, and if there was no 997 GT3 in the near future, it woudl surely help my decision



    I'm of the opinion that no matter what comes out of Porsche, be it a new turbo or whatever, that the GT3 is the best model simply because it's a street legal circuit racer. So even if 997 turbos came out, the 996 GT3 wouldn't look any worse. I think there is a sizable group of GT3 owners that would agree with this. But the mk II is certainly more desirable than a mk. I GT3 and so a new GT3 would be the hottest thing for the track crowd. So if I had a GT3 or planned to order a 996 model, I'd definitely want no 997 GT3s for a while. However, I don't have one, nor will buy an 05 model and I don't want to wait 4-5 years, so I would love another GT3 to come to the states. (I don't really want a used 996, so I'd like to always have to option to order a GT3 to my specs)

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    rc ,is it possible they use the getrag sequential box instead of dsg?

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    Thanks Chris..great news..

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    If not a dual clutch DSG, does this sequential still have a manual clutch?

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    I am not too keen on the idea of a sequential shift mechanism. Only time will tell.

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    Quote:
    Tetsuo said:
    I am not too keen on the idea of a sequential shift mechanism. Only time will tell.


    try bmw's smg2 and smg3 ,you will change your mind... at least thats what happened to me..

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    If you think BMW's SMG is good, wait until you try the DSG which I currently have on my Audi. Absolutely awesome. I'll miss it when I get my 997 manual. It puts the tiptronic on the 996 to shame.

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    If not a dual clutch DSG, does this sequential still have a manual clutch?



    If its not the dual clutch, it may be a single clucth sequential but would still not have a clutch pedal. It would be like a BMW SMG or Ferrari F1.

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    Quote:
    Raven said:
    If you think BMW's SMG is good, wait until you try the DSG which I currently have on my Audi. Absolutely awesome. I'll miss it when I get my 997 manual. It puts the tiptronic on the 996 to shame.


    i never tried audi's dsg ,i owned an smg2 ,it was awesome.but as far as i read ,the smg is still the fastest and most sporty system with 0.08sec shifting time on smg2,and0.065 on smg3 .thats half the time of ferrari (0.15s).i dont know the figures of audi's dsg,you got them?

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    RC, any idea of HPs and other major changes compared to the present model? will it be increased to 3.8L? how far can the 964 basis be stretched? I think that unit might have reached its limits, what do you think?
    cant wait for the sequential shifter, my turbo is at the PZ with a broken third gear . guess these things dont happen with a dsg...
    And furthermore i realized once again how heavy and wobbly the turbo feels on a racetrack. and there's too much understeer too. so my next one is probably gonna be the new GT3..
    turbolite

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    The M3's SMG2 is awful... you can't shift smoothly in that thing.

    I have no idea what you are considering a "good" sequential shift mechanism.

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    Quote:
    dhayek said:
    i never tried audi's dsg ,i owned an smg2 ,it was awesome.but as far as i read ,the smg is still the fastest and most sporty system with 0.08sec shifting time on smg2,and0.065 on smg3 .thats half the time of ferrari (0.15s).i dont know the figures of audi's dsg,you got them?



    dhayek,
    the DSG with its two clutches is able to upshift 10 times faster than the SMG-II. Its not in the same leage in terms of speed and perfromance than the single clutch sequential like the SMG, but of the single clutch sequentials, the SMG-II is indeed the fastest.

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    Guys, I really don't have any further information regarding technical specs, I wish I had.
    Regarding the engine: take a look at the new 997 GT3 Cup and you might get an answer.

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    Quote:
    dhayek said:
    i never tried audi's dsg ,i owned an smg2 ,it was awesome.but as far as i read ,the smg is still the fastest and most sporty system with 0.08sec shifting time on smg2,and0.065 on smg3 .thats half the time of ferrari (0.15s).i dont know the figures of audi's dsg,you got them?



    dhayek,
    the DSG with its two clutches is able to upshift 10 times faster than the SMG-II. Its not in the same leage in terms of speed and perfromance than the single clutch sequential like the SMG, but of the single clutch sequentials, the SMG-II is indeed the fastest.


    carlos ,you say they are not in the same league ,is it that much better?better than ferrari's ,m3's and m5's???10 time faster means an upshift in 0.0008sec. this is impossible it would brake the gearbox in 2,do you have the real value?

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    Quote:
    dhayek said:
    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    Quote:
    dhayek said:
    i never tried audi's dsg ,i owned an smg2 ,it was awesome.but as far as i read ,the smg is still the fastest and most sporty system with 0.08sec shifting time on smg2,and0.065 on smg3 .thats half the time of ferrari (0.15s).i dont know the figures of audi's dsg,you got them?



    dhayek,
    the DSG with its two clutches is able to upshift 10 times faster than the SMG-II. Its not in the same leage in terms of speed and perfromance than the single clutch sequential like the SMG, but of the single clutch sequentials, the SMG-II is indeed the fastest.


    carlos ,you say they are not in the same league ,is it that much better?better than ferrari's ,m3's and m5's???10 time faster means an upshift in 0.0008sec. this is impossible it would brake the gearbox in 2,do you have the real value?



    dhayek,

    Nothing is impossible for German engineers they have always defied the laws of physics.

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    Quote:
    dhayek said:
    carlos ,you say they are not in the same league ,is it that much better?better than ferrari's ,m3's and m5's???10 time faster means an upshift in 0.0008sec. this is impossible it would brake the gearbox in 2,do you have the real value?



    yes, the trick is in the two clutches. When one gear is engaged the other clucth has the next gear ready to declutch and engage at the same time the outgoing gear is disengaed, so it occurs simultaneously yielding such shifting speeds and most importantly almost no power interruption during the shift. This lack of almost no power interruption makes the double-clutch system the first "auto" that even accelerates faster than a manual (I believe its 0.2 secs faster than the manual in the GolfR32 in just the 0-60). Its also smoother than a single clutch sequential.

    I expect nothing less from Porsche than this system, the only problem is to figure out how to make it handle the torque of the more powerful 911 variants. But imagine a 997 with the Turbo engine and the 997's balance, handling and brakes, and this gearbox = "can't touch this!"

    Upshift for the SMG-II is 80msecs (0,08secs) and for the DSG is 8msecs (0,008secs). BTW the Enzo's upshift speed is 150msecs

    I'd still get a manual though, I can't live without the clucth no matter how fast it is, its an integral part of the driving pleasure and experience for me, though thats just me and a personal preference.

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    Quote:
    turbolite said:
    RC, any idea of HPs and other major changes compared to the present model? will it be increased to 3.8L? how far can the 964 basis be stretched? I think that unit might have reached its limits, what do you think?
    cant wait for the sequential shifter, my turbo is at the PZ with a broken third gear . guess these things dont happen with a dsg...
    And furthermore i realized once again how heavy and wobbly the turbo feels on a racetrack. and there's too much understeer too. so my next one is probably gonna be the new GT3..
    turbolite



    I'm not an expert on the GT3 motor, but I know that the 964 basis has been made into a 3.8. Check out the 1996 Carrera RS 3.8 and associated race cars. Displacement went back down to 3.6 when they started water cooling it so I don't know if that could get in the way of things (I don't know how the block was modified for water cooling), but I suspect it very well could still go to 3.8.

    I guess since the 997 GT3 cup car is 3.6 and makes 400 hp, that the next gt3 motor will still be a 3.6 and make 390-400 hp. I really don't mind as long as Porsche doesn't add an ounce to the weight because the torque to weight ratio better still beat a Carrera S with its 3.8.

    If they can still offer a significantly faster car and not increase the displacement, than they will. Someday we will probably have 3.8 liter GT3s making 450 hp in street trim, but it will be a few generations, maybe the mk. 5 GT3.

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    thanks. guess you're right that they wont come out with a 3.8 street version if cup is still at 3.6.
    I'm wondering though as the space for the gt3 is getting somehow smaller. the old one is only 50 kg lighter than the new S (1380 vs 1420), so as they always tend to increase weight, the difference between the new gt3 and the new S will decrrease. and powerwise, if they go up to 385 there will only be a 30 hp difference between them. so altogether his doesnt seem too convincing on paper. I therefore think an increase to 3.8 L would be appropriate already for this generation. RC, can you shed some light ??
    turbolite

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    Turbolite,

    what's the story about the 964 engine block? As far as I know the GT1-derived engine block, used in GT2/3 and TT, doesn't have any connection with previous models but was developed for racing purposes from scratch. Anybody can confirm this? Not sure on this one...

    The 996 GT3 was actually heavier than the std. 996 due to a more complex suspension!


    Dimitri,

    the DSG system is virtually two gearboxes in one, each one with an own clutch. So it is more about melting the clutching together than about shifting in record times! If I am right acceleration rather appears like in an automatic concerning shifting times and comfort!
    Current DSG boxes in VW and Audi models are not significantly faster than their std. counterparts, but I suppose there is enough room left in improvement. I can only suspect that clutch release in high-rev starts are less agressive than would be accomplished in testing procedures. For everyday use it shouldn't be a problem though.
    The two axles between each clutch and pair of gearsets are driven inside of each other, so as long as the inner axle can handle the torque (I suppose it's the one for the even gear numbers) you should be able to use it on the Turbo and the likes!

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    what's the story about the 964 engine block? As far as I know the GT1-derived engine block, used in GT2/3 and TT, doesn't have any connection with previous models but was developed for racing purposes from scratch. Anybody can confirm this? Not sure on this one...


    The GT1 block was a water cooled derivative of the 964 block. Until Porsche switched to a re-designed block last year (changed to remove the last vestiges of support for the air cooled motors such as oil return tube holes) the 996 Turbo/GT2/GT3 blocks actually had a 964 part number.

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    Thanks Steve!

    So you're saying the '04 models have a different engine block (hence the differing engine numbers)?
    Any improvements on this one?

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    Yes, it takes only 8ms to upshift. But it takes 600ms to downshift. And changing down a few gears could be more complicated (eg from 6th to 2nd), it takes 900ms!

    DSG info

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    Ahem, please name me a situation when you need to shift from 6th to 2nd gear...
    I'd say you even take longer to pull the paddle to ADVISE the gearbox to downshift than the gearbox will need. 900ms are still less than a second!

    I'd be curious how long the SMG and F1 gearboxes need for downshifts - remembering the intoxicating throttle-blibs on those cars at downshifts!
    Besides that the only situation you might be in the wrong gear might be on public streets.
    The record times mentioned for F and BMW boxes are only in Sport-mode, remember. You won't drive like this to your bakery!

    Greetings!

    Re: 997 and sequential shifting

    Give me a new and improved
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