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    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    I agree wholeheartly with Walter's statement. I would rather be able to know for certain that when going at high speeds, that I'd be able to stop each and every time confidently! There lies the inherent danger of having PCCB because one might end up being a wee bit too overconfident at times. I know I did when I drove one!

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:Mike, I respect you a lot, but would you honestly recommend PCCBs to 997 Turbo buyer who will drive his Turbo 90% of time in town?



    I have PCCB on my 996TT cabriolet and have never driven it on a track. I love the PCCB in merely spirited driving and have no issues with either noise or wet weather.

    I don't, for even a minute, regret having them.

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    PCCB's also don't allow fitment of 18" wheels which drastically diminish the options for

    1)track tires
    2)snow tires

    track tires in 19" sizes are over 2x the cost of 18" tires, and there is not even a true "R" compound produced in 19" "N' sizes yet. The Corsas and Pilot Cup Sports are not true "R" compounds. I have already purchased 18" C4 wheels for my incoming turbo and shod them with Hoosiers for track days.

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Okay, I asked my dealer about PCCB costs. Here's his response:

    >>Hey Gregg,

    The cost isn't much different from regular brake pads. Parts with NO
    DISCOUNT is $1354.62 while labor would be $230 bringing the total to
    $1584.62. Should be able to get it done for less money. This is for all
    four.

    Here are the parts and part numbers and break down of cost.
    1 997-351-948-01 set of pads 364.94 364.94
    12 996-352-086-01 damping plate 12.41 148.92
    2 997-612-677-00 cable wear ind. 41.87 83.74
    4 999-067-054-09 pan head screw 19.36 77.44
    1 997-352-947-01 set of pads 383.92 383.92
    4 997-352-947-01 damping panel 26.06 104.24
    4 996-352-086-01 damping plate 12.41 49.64
    2 997-612-754-00 cable 41.87
    83.74
    4 999-067-040-01 pan head screw 14.51 58.04
    Labor
    230.00
    Total
    1584.62

    I hope this helps<<


    "The cost isn't much different from regular brake pads."

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    "The cost isn't much different from regular brake pads."




    Would you please ask your dealer the cost difference between replacing four cast iron vs. four PCCB rotors?

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    In the recent AMS comparison the Audi RS4 was compared both with steel and cc-rotors. The test data revealed, that one wouldn't make a bad choice with any of these - the steel rotors performed absolutely sufficiently, all of this in a heavy sedan.

    Regarding Röhrl's comments, as accurate a third-hand report may be, the car definately benefits from the more expensive brake option - but the standard steel brakes don't come with a significant drawback which would make them obsolete.
    To understand his comments, one more thing to add; he also advised friends to choose the Cayenne S over the Cayenne turbo since that model is absolutely sufficient. However not many followed his advise but ordered the more expensive model instead.



    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    ..."The cost isn't much different from regular brake pads."




    The brake pads don't make the difference, the rotors do!

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    It that case Walter Rohrl is among them...



    Unless, of course, Walter's thoughts about PCCB vs. cast-iron brakes have been misunderstood, misapplied, or misconstrued.

    Could he have been talking about the overall BTU capacity of each type? How about measured stopping distances, irrespective of feel, fade, or other behavior?

    Hearsay or inaccurately applied quotations attributed to a famous person can be just as misleading as hearsay from mistaken readers of car magazines.

    I trust Hr. Roehrl's observations about anything Porsche, but I don't trust casual paraphrases of his conversations repeated without accurate context.

    In this particular case of PCCB vs. cast-iron brake desirability, my direct observations don't match up with the hearsay. Some people prefer to believe that whatever is too highly priced for their tastes is somehow not "worth it". They may grasp at the thinnest reed to "prove" their point, using a certain amount of willful misunderstanding.




    Whew~ Wish I could construct my points that acutely.

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    In the recent AMS comparison the Audi RS4 was compared both with steel and cc-rotors. The test data revealed, that one wouldn't make a bad choice with any of these - the steel rotors performed absolutely sufficiently, all of this in a heavy sedan.

    Regarding Röhrl's comments, as accurate a third-hand report may be, the car definately benefits from the more expensive brake option - but the standard steel brakes don't come with a significant drawback which would make them obsolete.
    To understand his comments, one more thing to add; he also advised friends to choose the Cayenne S over the Cayenne turbo since that model is absolutely sufficient. However not many followed his advise but ordered the more expensive model instead.



    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    ..."The cost isn't much different from regular brake pads."




    The brake pads don't make the difference, the rotors do!



    And I've yet to hear anyone that's needed to replace the rotors based on wear. But even if they did I'm not sure the $ DIFFERENCE is that great,,,,, if any. The pads are really the only parts that 99% of people need to be concerned about replacing, IF they are the type to track their cars frequently. And if you're only doing street driving highly unlikely you'll ever, ever need to replace rotors, probably not even pads. It's like saying I want to buy a 997 because if I blow the motor of a turbo after my warranty it will cost too much to replace. Just doesn't make sense. And IF you need to replace PCCB pads it's likey you would have had to replace steel rotor pads twice or more. Since they equal the same to replace it's actually possible you're going to spend MORE money in maintance for the steel set-up.

    Read what Fanch posted:

    " Now in terms of maintenance costs, I'm about the do my 7th track day this year, car has 14,000 km and I've had the car checked and serviced last month.
    The pads are not even half way through their thickness and the disks are as new
    I've only had the brake fluid changed and repressurised which costed peanuts.

    Porsche recommends changing the discs after three sets of pads, but several GT2 owner whom I know and Ferrari CS (similar tech) are all over 5 sets of pads and the disks are just fine."


    Sorry but very few people are going to go through at least 3 sets of PCCB pads. But if they are doing the TYPE OF DRIVING that requires a rotor change because they have gone through 3/4/5 sets of PCCB pads then they probably would have gone through 6-10 steel brake pads (just guessing), that's about $10k MORE for steel brake pads over time. (and more $ than the entire PCCB option) And is even bigger case for them to have the PCCB set-up over steel/ they DEFINITELY NEED PCCB'S and have more than gotten their money's worth performance wise. 10 fold........In addition they may have even saved a ton of money now because of the PCCB pad life.

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    ..."The cost isn't much different from regular brake pads."




    The brake pads don't make the difference, the rotors do!



    And I've yet to hear anyone that's needed to replace the rotors based on wear. But even if they did I'm not sure the $ DIFFERENCE is that great,,,,, if any. The pads are really the only parts that 99% of people need to be concerned about replacing, IF they are the type to track their cars frequently. And if you're only doing street driving highly unlikely you'll ever, ever need to replace rotors, probably not even pads. It's like saying I want to buy a 997 because if I blow the motor of a turbo after my warranty it will cost too much to replace. Just doesn't make sense. And IF you need to replace PCCB pads it's likey you would have had to replace steel rotor pads twice or more. Since they equal the same to replace it's actually possible you're going to spend MORE money in maintance for the steel set-up.

    Read what Fanch posted:

    " Now in terms of maintenance costs, I'm about the do my 7th track day this year, car has 14,000 km and I've had the car checked and serviced last month.
    The pads are not even half way through their thickness and the disks are as new
    I've only had the brake fluid changed and repressurised which costed peanuts.

    Porsche recommends changing the discs after three sets of pads, but several GT2 owner whom I know and Ferrari CS (similar tech) are all over 5 sets of pads and the disks are just fine."


    Sorry but very few people are going to go through at least 3 sets of PCCB pads. But if they are doing the TYPE OF DRIVING that requires a rotor change because they have gone through 3/4/5 sets of PCCB pads then they probably would have gone through 6-10 steel brake pads (just guessing), that's about $10k MORE for steel brake pads over time. (and more $ than the entire PCCB option) And is even bigger case for them to have the PCCB set-up over steel/ they DEFINITELY NEED PCCB'S and have more than gotten their money's worth performance wise. 10 fold........In addition they may have even saved a ton of money now because of the PCCB pad life.



    This is observation is only half true.
    In theory you will probably never encounter the change of a PCCB rotor. However, reality showed that this is not necessarily true.

    The PCCB rotor is sensitive to 1) heat and 2) physical damage. That is, if the rotor overheats, it can crack. This was the reason why 1st gen PCCB rotors could die after track days. This was not based on the age of the disc but could happen to new rotors.
    This seemed to be improved with the new 2nd gen PCCB, However, this was not only an improvement in the PCCB but also in the ventilation of the brakes in the 997. Porsche did not account any PCCB rotor failure after a track event. This is still the case. However, Porsche now also uses PCCB in their race model which is an indication that they now trust the PCCB. But you might search for an Christoporus article in which it was described how much effort they go through after each race event to analyze each single disc they used for internal damage. That is something that no private driver can do.

    An additional point of failure is the physical damage which can occur during wheel changes or other impact to the disc ( stones etc).

    Regarding the price you should check your sources on the price of the rotors etc. The complete replacement set for a GT3 from steel to PCCB with calipers, rotors and pads is 16000 $ without labour. The price of a single replacement rotor is about 4500$. That is not really in the same league as a steel rotor....

    Nevertheless, PCCB are a major improvement and highly recommended.

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Quote:
    yah said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    ..."The cost isn't much different from regular brake pads."




    The brake pads don't make the difference, the rotors do!



    And I've yet to hear anyone that's needed to replace the rotors based on wear. But even if they did I'm not sure the $ DIFFERENCE is that great,,,,, if any. The pads are really the only parts that 99% of people need to be concerned about replacing, IF they are the type to track their cars frequently. And if you're only doing street driving highly unlikely you'll ever, ever need to replace rotors, probably not even pads. It's like saying I want to buy a 997 because if I blow the motor of a turbo after my warranty it will cost too much to replace. Just doesn't make sense. And IF you need to replace PCCB pads it's likey you would have had to replace steel rotor pads twice or more. Since they equal the same to replace it's actually possible you're going to spend MORE money in maintance for the steel set-up.

    Read what Fanch posted:

    " Now in terms of maintenance costs, I'm about the do my 7th track day this year, car has 14,000 km and I've had the car checked and serviced last month.
    The pads are not even half way through their thickness and the disks are as new
    I've only had the brake fluid changed and repressurised which costed peanuts.

    Porsche recommends changing the discs after three sets of pads, but several GT2 owner whom I know and Ferrari CS (similar tech) are all over 5 sets of pads and the disks are just fine."


    Sorry but very few people are going to go through at least 3 sets of PCCB pads. But if they are doing the TYPE OF DRIVING that requires a rotor change because they have gone through 3/4/5 sets of PCCB pads then they probably would have gone through 6-10 steel brake pads (just guessing), that's about $10k MORE for steel brake pads over time. (and more $ than the entire PCCB option) And is even bigger case for them to have the PCCB set-up over steel/ they DEFINITELY NEED PCCB'S and have more than gotten their money's worth performance wise. 10 fold........In addition they may have even saved a ton of money now because of the PCCB pad life.



    This is observation is only half true.
    In theory you will probably never encounter the change of a PCCB rotor. However, reality showed that this is not necessarily true.

    The PCCB rotor is sensitive to 1) heat and 2) physical damage. That is, if the rotor overheats, it can crack. This was the reason why 1st gen PCCB rotors could die after track days. This was not based on the age of the disc but could happen to new rotors.
    This seemed to be improved with the new 2nd gen PCCB, However, this was not only an improvement in the PCCB but also in the ventilation of the brakes in the 997. Porsche did not account any PCCB rotor failure after a track event. This is still the case. However, Porsche now also uses PCCB in their race model which is an indication that they now trust the PCCB. But you might search for an Christoporus article in which it was described how much effort they go through after each race event to analyze each single disc they used for internal damage. That is something that no private driver can do.

    An additional point of failure is the physical damage which can occur during wheel changes or other impact to the disc ( stones etc).

    Regarding the price you should check your sources on the price of the rotors etc. The complete replacement set for a GT3 from steel to PCCB with calipers, rotors and pads is 16000 $ without labour. The price of a single replacement rotor is about 4500$. That is not really in the same league as a steel rotor....

    Nevertheless, PCCB are a major improvement and highly recommended.



    Like I said I've yet to hear from a single person that's had to replace a PCCB rotor for wear. As for replacement because of a bad rotor's on prior PCCB system guess that would be repaired under warranty so it's still a non issue. And now w/ the next generation PCCB system I've still have yet to hear of a single failure. Like I said non issue.

    How can calipers, rotors and pads cost $16,000 and "The price of a single replacement rotor is about 4500$." ????????? That would mean it would cost $18,000 for just rotors but $16,000 for rotors, calipers, pads???????

    Besides which the first place I looked I can buy the entire system for $13k : http://e-partssales.com/Merchant2/mercha...gory_Code=997sp obviously the turbo set-up may be more.

    But No one is going to need rotors and pads are the same cost to replace. So if you look at it objectively and not based on trying to justify a decision you made already it appears the overall cost to maintain the steel set-up is about twice as much $ as the PCCB's. (more brake pad changes neccesary)

    Bottom line though/point I was trying to make. - If the cost of the PCCB system as a new option makes it unaffordable or just too pricey to some I can understand but the posts that say brake pad/rotor replacement makes is too costly/risky are really off base. But I'm glad I looked into the maintance costs. It's possible I might need PCCB pad changes but will never need rotor replacement. I would have never known it will actually cost me less to maintain a PCCB turbo over time than if I had decided on steel. I had thought it was the other way around.

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    "The cost isn't much different from regular brake pads."




    Would you please ask your dealer the cost difference between replacing four cast iron vs. four PCCB rotors?



    This just in:

    >>Steel rotors are cheap $1000, three different part numbers
    997-351-405-00
    997-351-406-00
    997-352-405-01

    Ceramic rotors are cost $$arm and $$leg sometimes $$firstborn too

    I don't have exact pricing yet and parts are going to get back to me with
    that but in testing the CERAMIC ROTORS after 300,000 miles showed VIRTUALLY
    NO WEAR. At PDE (Porsche Driving Experience) in RACE ONLY cars, with
    175,000 RACE MILES and RACE BRAKING...showed less than .01mm wear at the
    rotor. You'll never need replacement of a rotor unless you plan on driving
    to the moon. This is a worthwhile option because not only does the car
    brake better, but the car handles better because of unsprung weight.
    Literally you can brake so late into corners and on the street it is safer
    because of the shorter stopping distance and resistance to fade...MOST
    IMPORTANT, NO BRAKE DUST!!! Am I doing a good job selling this option yet?
    When you get standard brakes, when you do pads, they will suggest rotor
    changes as well making pad replacement much more expensive in the
    $2300-$2400 range. After a few brake jobs you've recouped your money! :-)

    Anyway, I would MAKE YOU UPGRADE CARS BEFORE YOU EVEN WOULD NEED A BRAKE
    CHANGE!

    I hope this helps.<<

    So there's another maintance cost to steel. Rotor changes. Where as the PCCB's not neccessary. If you drive hard at all it may cost a lot less $ overall to invest in the PCCB system than to do all those steel pad and rotor changes.

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    yah said:
    This is observation is only half true.
    In theory you will probably never encounter the change of a PCCB rotor. However, reality showed that this is not necessarily true.

    The PCCB rotor is sensitive to 1) heat and 2) physical damage. That is, if the rotor overheats, it can crack. This was the reason why 1st gen PCCB rotors could die after track days. This was not based on the age of the disc but could happen to new rotors.
    This seemed to be improved with the new 2nd gen PCCB, However, this was not only an improvement in the PCCB but also in the ventilation of the brakes in the 997. Porsche did not account any PCCB rotor failure after a track event. This is still the case. However, Porsche now also uses PCCB in their race model which is an indication that they now trust the PCCB. But you might search for an Christoporus article in which it was described how much effort they go through after each race event to analyze each single disc they used for internal damage. That is something that no private driver can do.

    An additional point of failure is the physical damage which can occur during wheel changes or other impact to the disc ( stones etc).

    Regarding the price you should check your sources on the price of the rotors etc. The complete replacement set for a GT3 from steel to PCCB with calipers, rotors and pads is 16000 $ without labour. The price of a single replacement rotor is about 4500$. That is not really in the same league as a steel rotor....

    Nevertheless, PCCB are a major improvement and highly recommended.



    Quote:
    STRADALE said:

    Like I said I've yet to hear from a single person that's had to replace a PCCB rotor for wear. As for replacement because of a bad rotor's on prior PCCB system guess that would be repaired under warranty so it's still a non issue. And now w/ the next generation PCCB system I've still have yet to hear of a single failure. Like I said non issue.





    The difference is that the "wear" process on PCCB is not be compared to steel. For iron you have wear due to abrasion. The abrasion on a PCCB is minimal and almost not existent. The problem of a crack on a PCCB can occur for the reason stated above which is not abrasion. This can happen disregard of age and usage and thus difficult to detect. That is the reason why Porsche gives this thumb rule to change the rotors after several pad exchanges. If a PCCB rotor fails, it seems, from the different stories that are available, that Porsche typically does not cover this under warranty even for low mileage PCCB failures.

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:

    How can calipers, rotors and pads cost $16,000 and "The price of a single replacement rotor is about 4500$." ????????? That would mean it would cost $18,000 for just rotors but $16,000 for rotors, calipers, pads???????

    Besides which the first place I looked I can buy the entire system for $13k : http://e-partssales.com/Merchant2/mercha...gory_Code=997sp obviously the turbo set-up may be more.





    I am not sure but did you ever bought any kind of single replacements from Porsche? The equation is not a simple addition:) You might ask your dealer of choice for a quote on a single rim vs. a complete set with tires...
    Do you expect that if the whole PCCB set costs 14k$ you get a single rotor for 2K?

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:

    But No one is going to need rotors and pads are the same cost to replace. So if you look at it objectively and not based on trying to justify a decision you made already it appears the overall cost to maintain the steel set-up is about twice as much $ as the PCCB's. (more brake pad changes neccesary)

    Bottom line though/point I was trying to make. - If the cost of the system makes it unaffordable to some I can understand but the posts that say brake pad/rotor replacement makes is too costly/risky are really off base. But I'm glad I looked into the maintance costs I would have never known it will actaully cost me less to maintain my PCCB turbo over time than if I had decided on steel.



    Yes, this is very likely. As I wrote, I would recommend the PCCBs. I also do not know about PCCB2 failures. Therefore, you will probably never run into problems. I just got from factory visits that the difference between PCCB1 and 2 not that big and the inherent problem remains but are more unlikely. The main problem was that PCCB1 could get too hot, to this end the ventilation/cooling has been improved. Nevertheless, the PCCB lifetime after tracking cannot really be compared and estimated as the wear process is not based on abrasion and brake usage but instead on exhibition to heat and following cracks on nano level.

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Quote:
    yah said:
    [quoteI am not sure but did you ever bought any kind of single replacements from Porsche? The equation is not a simple addition:) You might ask your dealer of choice for a quote on a single rim vs. a complete set with tires...
    Do you expect that if the whole PCCB set costs 14k$ you get a single rotor for 2K?



    No, but till I get the quotes who knows. Maybe. Besides you'd have to be retarded to pay $18,000 and buy 4 rotors when you could buy rotors, calipers and pads for $13,000.

    The info I just got from my dealer was that any failure would be covered under warranty so I'm not sure where you're getting the other part. And he's also yet to hear of a failure so it's again a non issue and just a ridiculous, rhetorical point. Like I said before it would be like someone justifying their decision to buy a regular 997 over a turbo because if the turbo's engine failed in 10 years from now it would cost more to fix. But this exercise was very informative, basically eliminated the very last part of doubt I had about getting PCCB's and would love to hit the Porsche person resposible for the steel brakes in my 997 S cab over the head with a wet nooddle. Over and out.

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Prior to ordering PCCBs for my 06 997S I priced the retail price on front pads,--for steel versus PCCB rotors. The regular ones were about $250 for the front end; the pads that go with the PCCB discs were about $350.

    I carefully miked my ceramic rotors the other day and will continue to do so yearly to obtain some sort of objective data in ceramic rotor wear. I have estimated a rotor life of some 300,000 miles if merely a street car with perhaps 3-4 driving events each year.

    Dan

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    yah said:
    [quoteI am not sure but did you ever bought any kind of single replacements from Porsche? The equation is not a simple addition:) You might ask your dealer of choice for a quote on a single rim vs. a complete set with tires...
    Do you expect that if the whole PCCB set costs 14k$ you get a single rotor for 2K?



    No, but till I get the quotes who knows. Maybe. Besides you'd have to be retarded to pay $18,000 and buy 4 rotors when you could buy rotors, calipers and pads for $13,000.

    The info I just got from my dealer was that any failure would be covered under warranty so I'm not sure where you're getting the other part. And he's also yet to hear of a failure so it's again a non issue and just a ridiculous, rhetorical point. Like I said before it would be like someone justifying their decision to buy a regular 997 over a turbo because if the turbo's engine failed in 10 years from now it would cost more to fix. But this exercise was very informative, basically eliminated the very last part of doubt I had about getting PCCB's and would love to hit the Porsche person resposible for the steel brakes in my 997 S cab over the head with a wet nooddle. Over and out.


    I always hesitate to comment on these matters of performance as my previous experience was limited to a C4S built 1996 abd therefore not really reflective of orderly advancement... But in this instance comparing big reds to these PCCB's on the Turbo hardly. these brakes are incredible. Now unfortunately I can't say if it lightens the steering compared to a 996tt as I don't have any experience driving one...but as for the 993 C4S the 997 turbo's steering is much lighter. Of the features in my car that I most enjoy the brakes are right up there...and I find I feel the road through the steering wheel much better...atleast thats my experience anyway the brake dust well thats just icing on the cake

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    "The cost isn't much different from regular brake pads."





    When you get standard brakes, when you do pads, they will suggest rotor
    changes as well making pad replacement much more expensive in the
    $2300-$2400 range. After a few brake jobs you've recouped your money! :-)

    Stradale,
    This is exactly what my service advisor said. Evertime you change pads on steel, you need to chnage the rotors as well but only pads for PCCB. Steel will cost more to maintain. SURPISE

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Quote:
    This is exactly what my service advisor said. Evertime you change pads on steel, you need to chnage the rotors as well but only pads for PCCB. Steel will cost more to maintain.



    Sounds like you need to find a service advisor who actually knows what he is talking about.

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    Quote:
    This is exactly what my service advisor said. Evertime you change pads on steel, you need to chnage the rotors as well but only pads for PCCB. Steel will cost more to maintain.



    Sounds like you need to find a service advisor who actually knows what he is talking about.


    Exactly - that's a load of crap...

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    eclou said:
    Quote:
    This is exactly what my service advisor said. Evertime you change pads on steel, you need to chnage the rotors as well but only pads for PCCB. Steel will cost more to maintain.



    Sounds like you need to find a service advisor who actually knows what he is talking about.


    Exactly - that's a load of crap...



    Indeed - rotors on reg. cars should last about 50k mls. which should be three times as long as the brake pads. This might differ under heavy use but is still far from the above mentioned advise!

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Every time I had to change front pads (996 and CTT) they also had to change the rotors (steel). This adds $4-500 ish to the brake change. Still a long way to go to reach the $10K for the ceramics. And rear rotor should last at least two pads.

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    Every time I had to change front pads (996 and CTT) they also had to change the rotors (steel). This adds $4-500 ish to the brake change. Still a long way to go to reach the $10K for the ceramics. And rear rotor should last at least two pads.



    More like everytime you took the car in, they told you that it needed rotors and pads and you did not question them. You've been taken for a long ride.

    Once I let my wife take in our 528 for a recall part. The service advisor sized her up and told her she needed a new clutch (on a 10k mile car). When I questioned the advisor on how he knew the clutch was worn he said the car was on a lift and they measured the wear. I happened to be standing in the parking lot next to the car at that very moment. The car had never been moved since we dropped it off.

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Well then I'll say it. I've had two 996TT's. The first had reds and the second had yellows. I cannot tell the difference on track. Neither braking system faded at all, even under a continuous 7 hours of tracking at Willow Springs and ButtonWillow. Both systems provide more than adequate braking power. Further, the yellows (PCCB's) tend to squeak like a decapitated banshee. I MUCH prefer cleaning brake dust than waking up every dog in La Jolla with the noise.

    If there is a performance difference, I can't detect it.

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Changing rotors when changing pads is the norm these days, especially front ones. And not only on Porsches.

    Also, even if the rotors could be streched to do two pad sets, depending on your driving style, you might use them more on the second set than the first. Now your dealer tells you: they are under the Porsche recommended width. Are you really going to risk not changing the rotors, a $500 item on a $100k car? Unless you go and measure yourself, I would not take the risk for my family. And what if your brakes actually fail and your insurance finds out you denied changing the rotors?

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Does changing rotors along with the pads apply also for ceramic rotors too? That could get expensive in a big hurry!

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    No, read above posts. The ceramic rotor should be good for the life of the car.

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    I am not sure about this, but believe the ceramics on the 997 series are improved over 996. We drove ceramics at PDE recently, and I did not detect any squeaking noise. There distinctly was a difference in braking feel and consistency.

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Here is my position, and I believe that professional driver will give me right.

    PPCB isn't as good as steel for daily use (professional racing is something different):
    1. the reaction time is slower when the breaks are cold. When you drive normally on highways or in the city your breaks are cold.
    2. the reaction time when wet is not so fast as with steel breaks
    3. not better breaking from 100 km/h-0 km/h then steel
    4. even if they break better from 200 km/h to 0 km/h (1 meter less) it is very seldom that you need to break more then once in 1000 km driving
    5. fading problem is only relevant for racing, on normal streets you will not have fading problems with Porsche steel brakes. If you try to stop 5-6 time from 200 km/h to 0 km/h you will destroy the carcase (Karkasse in German) of your tire. This destruction you don't see with your eyes, you have to x-ray it. You can ask a tire manufacturer. Due to the high grip the tires have, consequent strong breaking from high speed can damage the tires.
    6. lower unsprung weight - ok, but please when ordering ceramic breaks don't order full leather or sun-roof.
    7. noise
    8. 8000 Euro more expense

    So that's reason why steel is better then PCCB.

    AM

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and steel brakes

    Wow lots of uninformed posts here sourced from so-called Porsche dealer-staff experts who have no experience.

    I have worn through two pairs of front PCCBs and one pair of rears on my 996GT2 and now run steel brakes all round. My view in very short terms:

    1. If you track the car hard (and there are very few people in the US who do) then you should think very carefully. The old PCCBs failed in many many cases from track use (I have many friends with failed PCCB discs from GT3s and GT2s)and there is no proof yet that the newer PCCB is any better. Remember Porsche removed the wording from their PCCB brochures about track-use after they started experiencing failures.

    2. I do not feel any difference in braking performance between steels and PCCBs, if anything the steels offer better modulation whereas the PCCBs were more on/off.

    3. For street-use then PCCB is fine, but for street use they offer no real advantages. If having clean wheels (which is admitedly nice) is worth the money to you then get PCCBs.

    Guy

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Quote:
    mumbasic said:
    6. lower unsprung weight - ok, but please when ordering ceramic breaks don't order full leather or sun-roof.




    Good point, however. Removing rotating mass from a vehicle will always be more noticle than removing the same amount of non-rotating weight

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    Every time I had to change front pads (996 and CTT) they also had to change the rotors (steel). This adds $4-500 ish to the brake change. Still a long way to go to reach the $10K for the ceramics. And rear rotor should last at least two pads.




    Yeah, but it's likey no one here will ever need to change the Ceramic Brake rotors. Ever. Here's what I was told by my dealer yesterday:
    >>in testing the CERAMIC ROTORS after 300,000 miles showed VIRTUALLY
    NO WEAR. At PDE (Porsche Driving Experience) in RACE ONLY cars, with
    175,000 RACE MILES and RACE BRAKING...showed less than .01mm wear at the
    rotor. You'll never need replacement of a rotor unless you plan on driving
    to the moon. When you get standard brakes, when you do pads, they will suggest rotor
    changes as well making pad replacement much more expensive in the
    $2300-$2400 range. After a few brake jobs you've recouped your money<<


    I don't plan on owning my car past 300,000 miles and wont track the car 175,000 miles, even if I did it appears like the rotors would still be good at those levels. Basically I know there's no way I'll ever need PCCB rotors, I'd probably need a new engine before PCCB rotors so comparing costs of replacing steel rotors vs, ceramics pretty much goes like this.

    Every steel brake pad change (or maybe 2 pad changes)= steel rotor change. Rotor Costs = $1000 per 4 steel rotor change.

    Every PCCB brake pad change = no rotor change= $0 rotor costs.

    Costs for the change of PCCB pads & steel brake pads are equal.

    So the PCCB option could possibly pay for itself over time.And the more miles you drive the more it pays for itself. No brainer. I think too many people here have been mislead to believe it will cost them too much to maintain the brakes on a PCCB system. That's a shame. Until yesterday I thought the same thing but found out the very opposite is true. I thought the The PCCB system was just an indulgence but it has the potential to save thousands of dollars in maintenance costs.

     
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