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    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    For normal roads, the Hockenheim is a better measure. Also, most if not all tracks are less than two miles. The Ring is almost eight miles and you consider it real world driving?



    No, Hockenheim is the opposite as the ring, its has a flat , smooth, and grippy surface with "track" course design that you don't find in the real wolrd like that. Its more a measure of track handling and braking.

    On the other hand, the nurburgring is the closest conditions to the real world of any track in the world. The 8miles lenght precisely provides infinite combinations of curves, changes of elevations, straights, etc. Its asfalt is public-road like, not track-like, with bumps, irregularuties, changes in composition, patches, etc. everything you find on the real world.

    I know the nurburgring benchmark is a thorn on your thumb because it does not make your F430 look good (or previous F360) compared to its rivals (Gallardo, 997TT, Z06, etc. all are significantly faster), but get over it

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Why is anyone surprised by this? Who can say for sure the same procedures are followed for all cars? I do not mean to only criticize AMS. I suspect they all have dirty hands.

    BTW now I know why Von Saurma times in Porsche's are always better than any other car manufacturer.

    James good find. Hopefully people will begin to recognize that Ring times are not all they are made out to be.



    Please: don't try to discuss a subject you seem to have very limited knowledge about...

    P.S.: Would be the same if I tried to discuss with you US law specific legal issues... Would be tiresome for you, I guess



    Here is what I know and you cannot deny. None of us have any idea to what extent any of these time are accurate. The factory claims one time and magazine's claim a host of different times. All agree that weather, tires, driver,or downright fraud impact time. It only points to what is an undeniable fact. Ring times are difficult to determine with any reliability.

    Though I agree that the Ring provides car companies feedback on some of their performance technology, it does not fully assess the car or its all around performance.

    Those of you who somehow look to the Ring as Holy Grail of performance are misguided. There is substantially more to a car than its Ring performance.



    Yes, let's discount the only true indicator of how fast a car is on normal roads .



    For normal roads, the Hockenheim is a better measure. Also, most if not all tracks are less than two miles. The Ring is almost eight miles and you consider it real world driving?



    Nick, like Carlos and Markus have already said, the surface really IS like a normal road. That's the reason they test on it. Regarding lap times, maybe a letter to Sport Auto from one of our members would be in order to sort out this question .

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Nick are you serious? Do you think all manufacturers should do dainty laps of the flat Fiorano between cups of espresso?

    Have you asked yourself why engineers from 99% of all auto manufacturers test suspensions, brakes and drivetrains on the Ring? Does product testing ring any bells?

    Have you asked yourself why GM built a shorter version of it in the US, but still uses the German original also?

    Do you think its all about published lap times for marketing?

    Surely you are not that naive.

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    James, I have driven for many years in a lot of fast cars and I know several other with similar experience and rarely if ever do you have an opportunity to go full tilt for more than two minutes on any public road in the US especially with curves and elevation changes or whatever else the Ring has to offer. Don't be taken in by their propaganda. It is a red herring.

    Do you reralize that same people who have been extolling the virtues of the Ring were downplaying it when the Z06 did it in 7 min.43 sec? Then Walter Rhorl, who can drive the Ring blindfolded, ran the 997TT with all its trumped up racing gear in 7min.42.sec after a 100 tries and suddenly the Ring is again the sole criteria for performance.

    It is all marketing my friend and those that like to drive around in their Porsche's with the Ring time posted in their front windshield "My car did the Ring in whatever" can continue to delude themselves.

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Nick,
    You touched one interesting thing-difference between driving culture in Europe and USA. In Europe we have a lot of country roads that almost mimic some part of the Ring(of course, not that tilt thing...) more or less...
    Interestingly enough some of this public country roads are actually more or less almost as demanding for fast driving as the Ring! Old country road(not new excellent autobahn) in my country between Zagreb and Rijeka(almost 200km's) called Jozefine's road is one of such examples. Belive me it is demanding road for true fast, spirited driving and some members here like Crash will confirmed this. Alps passages between Italy and Switzerland are even more demanding... Then we have Black Forrest in Germany... Should I go on... Carlos could add some interesting roads in Spain as well...
    Point is-Europe is full of old country roads that can mimic some parts of the Ring!
    And I am proud that Ring is important part of European sportscars history, present and future!

    You guys(and ladies) form USA have excellent Laguna Seca track, but almost none of the USA based car magazines do not measure sportscar performance there.

    I respect you Nick a lot(since you are same profession as me), but regarding Ring and its importance I disagree with you a lot...

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    you reralize that same people who have been extolling the virtues of the Ring were downplaying it when the Z06 did it in 7 min.43 sec?



    This number claimed by GM has never been verified by the press. We are still waiting for SPortAuto to do a Supertest on the Z06. Until then, the number should be regarded as a GM marketing number. Same applies to all numbers from Porsche, Audi etc.

    Only SportAuto Supertest results are comparable.

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    BTW: The below video gives a very quick ( ) overview of the NBR. Very quick indeed...

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M11GOVfA50

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    James, I have driven for many years in a lot of fast cars and I know several other with similar experience and rarely if ever do you have an opportunity to go full tilt for more than two minutes on any public road in the US especially with curves and elevation changes or whatever else the Ring has to offer. Don't be taken in by their propaganda. It is a red herring.

    Do you reralize that same people who have been extolling the virtues of the Ring were downplaying it when the Z06 did it in 7 min.43 sec? Then Walter Rhorl, who can drive the Ring blindfolded, ran the 997TT with all its trumped up racing gear in 7min.42.sec after a 100 tries and suddenly the Ring is again the sole criteria for performance.

    It is all marketing my friend and those that like to drive around in their Porsche's with the Ring time posted in their front windshield "My car did the Ring in whatever" can continue to delude themselves.



    Nick, I'd agree that the road to Starbucks in San Diego in nothing like the ring but the rest of the world in not the same, and real world does not mean San Diego area. Like Kresor said the real world here in Europe (and I bet manuy places in the rest of the US) averages what the ring offers, in asfalt changes, surface irregularities, fast turns, slow turns, uphills, downhills, straights, etc... and 8 full miles of it, not a small repetitive 3km course. I cannot think of any other testing track in the world that is closer.

    As usual you twists the facts to fit your claims but no one here downplayed the Ring when GM proclaimed 7:42,9 with the Z09, what weel informed members dwonplayed was the misuse of the Ring lap times for propaganda doing that lap in a way that was not comparable to the rest of the industry and SportAuto's lap catalog, hence cheating.

    Like I said, if you have a issue with the Ferrari's traditionally poor performance at the ring (like the F430's 7:55) then take it up with the guys at Maranaello but don't shoot the messenger or downplay the best benchmark for real-world performance sportcar enthusiasts have

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Nick, consider that might be you are overly caught up in a fixation about sports cars lap times.

    The 'ring is heavily used by manufacturers and their consultants to develop and test suspensions and powertrains.

    Most are for cars and even some trucks and you never see their lap times discussed.

    The Ring has more value to engineers doing development and testing than you might realize.

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:

    I respect you Nick a lot(since you are same profession as me), but regarding Ring and its importance I disagree with you a lot...



    +1 Maybe we should invite Nick to good old Europe and give him a chance to make a fresh assessment based on reality rather than internet discussions

    Of course Ring-times are used for marketing purposes and everybody who believes that a Ring-time reported for car A being 5 sec faster than car B makes car A the better car might be a marketing victim.

    The more important thing is indeed the Ring being an excellent (and challenging) resource for the R&D departments of any carmaker (not only sportscars) to find the best set-up for excellent handling when pushing a car hard in real life conditions (even if the customer doesn't, it just helps to create a lot of active safety).
    Ask any (semi-) professional raceteam: they all will tell you that it's the most demanding challenge to find a proper set up for the Ring (simplified: too "soft" = slow, too "hard" = car becomes airborned), hence they have to find the best compromise.
    Traditionally European cars (at least the better ones - I'm not talking about sportscars only) are made to drive fast and handle well on normal roads with a lot of active safety built in, US cars are oriented towards comfort and passive safety - it's a different philosophy.
    Maybe the struggling US carmakers would be better off if they'd test their cars on the Ring

    Jim: just saw your post only after typing my own post I 100% agree

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Porsche Jeck, GM heavily tests and even Ford does test some USA models at the ring. Even KIA and Hyundai test there.

    It is Daimler Chrysler and their failed leadership that does not test Chrysler and Dodge cars at the Ring. Ask Dr Zeitsche why! Maybe he is a secret Scotsman ! He should not get any Bonus this year, in fact they should cancel his paycheck!



    Porsche Jeck I agree with your post as well!

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Porsche Jeck, GM heavily tests and even Ford does test some USA models at the ring. Even KIA and Hyundai test there.

    It is Daimler Chrysler and their failed leadership that does not test Chrysler and Dodge cars at the Ring. Ask Dr Zeitsche why! Maybe he is a secret Scotsman !





    Maybe Dr.Z was afraid, that nobody in the US would buy MB cars anymore if a Chrysler pick-up would handle the same at a fraction of the cost of an MB

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Kreso, Laguna Seca is used for R&D. Last week Nissan was testing there and GM has used it for Corvette and V model Cadillac testing. But.. its not 8 miles long like the Ring!

    VW has a neat test track also in German I forget what town it is near. I do know it has one section with a 5 mile long straight but I dont think it has the elevation and curves that the Ring has.

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Porsche Jeck, GM heavily tests and even Ford does test some USA models at the ring. Even KIA and Hyundai test there.

    It is Daimler Chrysler and their failed leadership that does not test Chrysler and Dodge cars at the Ring. Ask Dr Zeitsche why! Maybe he is a secret Scotsman !





    Maybe Dr.Z was afraid, that nobody in the US would buy MB cars anymore if a Chrysler pick-up would handle the same at a fraction of the cost of an MB



    You may have stumbled onto something. He did approve that 500hp V10 Viper powered Dodge pick up truck.
    But that has the braking distances of the Queen Mary!

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Kreso, Laguna Seca is used for R&D. Last week Nissan was testing there and GM has used it for Corvette and V model Cadillac testing. But.. its not 8 miles long like the Ring!

    VW has a neat test track also in German I forget what town it is near. I do know it has one section with a 5 mile long straight but I dont think it has the elevation and curves that the Ring has.



    Ehra-Lessien.

    Kreso is right. There are so many roads here where you can absolutely boot it that it's ridiculous. Roads going through hills with varying surfaces quite similar to the 'Ring, long straights (up- and down-hill), fast sweeping corners, tight corners, basically everything you can imagine. Really nice roads to drive on and, when you drive fast enough, the altitude changes make your ears pop. Fun times .

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Kreso, while on these country roads in Europe (I have driven throughout France, England, Germany, Austria, Italy, Eastern European countries, Switzerland and Spain) and I do not ever recall having an open road for almost two minutes without other traffic and interruption.

    I do not dispute the Ring has its value for R&D but for many to place Ring performance as the gold standard for performance is just wrong. If that were true most car magazine and manufaturers would que up in front of the Ring and evaluate cars. Rarely does that happen because there is more to perf. than how a car does on a Ring.

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    So Nick, what do you propose other than the Ring as a test of sports car performance? Your suggestion of Hockenheim was already discounted. Them amount of looks at a stop light?

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Kreso, while on these country roads in Europe (I have driven throughout France, England, Germany, Austria, Italy, Eastern European countries, Switzerland and Spain) and I do not ever recall having an open road for almost two minutes without other traffic and interruption.

    I do not dispute the Ring has its value for R&D but for many to place Ring performance as the gold standard for performance is just wrong. If that were true most car magazine and manufaturers would que up in front of the Ring and evaluate cars. Rarely does that happen because there is more to perf. than how a car does on a Ring.



    Just because you as a tourist do "not recall" them doesn't mean there are no real-world roads in these countries where locals can enjoy their sportcars
    I also agree that Ring lap times do not have the same importace to everytbody, if you are driving in San Diego traffic (not only density but also the type of drivers you share the road with, etc), what ever the performance on the ring of your vehicle has, its as relative as its peformance over the moon's surface but in my are the ring is just perfect to measure the type of driving you can do. The performance & handling of your car above 90mph is not of much use to you, but in my case for example, its the mayority of my driving! So the Ring does not need to be necesarily important for everybody, its just another characteristic of the car, like its HP spec, or number of seats

    As to the validity of the Ring, the Ring is not perfect, mainly not because of the ring itself but rather from the interpretation ability of the results by the readers (i.e. able to differentiate between a factory claim or sportauto, what tires, what suspension option, what weather confitions, etc), but its the closest thing in the world, and when you learn to interpret the results as a whole its a pretty darn good reference. Or perhaps you can enlighten us with a better benchmark?

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    To ask what is a better measurement is to miss the point. As Carlos astutely stated, people have different needs and car manufaturers meet those needs.

    If Gm. Ford, Ferrari, BMW, VW and on and on were catering to motorists who sole criteria is Ring performance certainly they can produce a car to meet their needs. Porsche is single minded in Ring performance. Other car manufacturer look to acceleration and other's to a combination of driving characteristic's. Thus, performance involves goals set by the manfacturer in targeting its market base.

    Does the fact that the Z06 out accelerate the GT3 make it a better performance car? Are Hockenheim times meaningless? The Ring time is only one component in judging a car's ability . It is not the last and finally word.

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    If Gm. Ford, Ferrari, BMW, VW and on and on were catering to motorists who sole criteria is Ring performance certainly they can produce a car to meet their needs. Porsche is single minded in Ring performance. Other car manufacturer look to acceleration and other's to a combination of driving characteristic's. Thus, performance involves goals set by the manfacturer in targeting its market base.



    There is a fault in this reasoning, the fact that a car has good ring performance does not mean necesarily that is won't do good in acceleration or other more specific performance aspects. In fact its the opposite of what you are saying. Let me explain:

    The beauty of Ring performance is that it combines most of the performance and driving characteristics in one benchmark, or at least it is the best benchmark for global measurement the of the complicated mixture of factors and specs that determine sportcar's performace in real world driving, which is the place were we will later use these production models.

    While a drag strip is the best benchmark for acceleration, the ski-pad for lateral G's, the oval for top speed, the kg-scale for the weight, the dyno for the HP, the tight grippy course for sheer handling, ect. the Ring combines all those by-them-self-abstract measurements of performance into one, making it the best predictor for real-world performance of sportcars. Hence focusing on Ring performance is focusing on everything. I think this is the point you fail to grip.

    That is why is has become so important for the industry for testing purposes, for sportcar enthusiasts for reference, etc. And why cars that generally do well in the Ring we find ourselves later that do well on the streets performance wise. And there are cars that look great on paper specs but later on the Ring they do not do so well.

    Every sportcar enthusiast is or should be very grateful we have the Ring as a source. It has thrown down many myths, brought cars that otherwise wouldn't into the spotlight, its has given us invaluable comparison data between models we like, even between performance options of the same model, pulled the blankets from over manufacture's propaganda and paper specs, etc, etc, etc. If you don't like what you see, don't shoot the messenger, shoot the manufacturer, and if you don't care for what the Ring laps show form a sportcar, then why worry about them?

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Nick, Porsche is not single minded about Ring performance. Thats a wild a## claim to make. If indeed Porsche was, they would not foist such POS's as PASM, wich is really a sap to
    buyers who drive on less than decent roads - California, New York, Russia etc..

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Carlos, the grip you fail to grasp is real world driving performance of a sport car is night and day different than the Ring. In the real world because of limited space and time, braking, acceleration and manuevering in short spurts are at a premium. Not eight minutes of driving at almost full throttle.

    The fact that a car does the Ring 10 sec faster than another car does not mean it is a better performing sport car. All you have to do is look at the Hockenheim times to understand the difference.

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Nick, the 8 miles (x minutes) of full throttle and hard braking at various elevations and radius's is perhaps one of the best tests for durability and active safety.

    Hockenheim is too short, too slow and doesnt generate the variety of forces that the Ring does.

    If Porsche ceased testing at the Ring you would next be wringing your hands with all sorts of funny arguments.

    No one will fall for your Hockenheim is good enough argument. I don't think even the owners of Hockenheim would endorse your idea. Why don't you write them ask for their input.

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Jim if the Hochenheim is meaningless why bother testing on it?

    Most if not all test tracks for automobile manufacturer's are less than one mile and have curves, elevation changes and skid pads.

    The reason for the Ring is durability putting the car under stress at high speeds. The Ring times somehow morphed into a criteria for "best sport car perf." primarily by our Europeans friends. Don't buy into it.

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Jim if the Hochenheim is meaningless why bother testing on it?

    Most if not all test tracks for automobile manufacturer's are less than one mile and have curves, elevation changes and skid pads.

    The reason for the Ring is durability putting the car under stress at high speeds. The Ring times somehow morphed into a criteria for "best sport car perf." primarily by our Europeans friends. Don't buy into it.



    It certainly doesn't fit the San Diego roads criteria . Nick, I can think of at least 6 different roads around here from the top of my head that are very similar to the 'Ring and yes, on some days you can get more than 8 minutes of hard driving without needing to brake. So, in fact, you are right. It truly is a performance benchmark, brought forth by us Europeans, but for a good reason - because it represents our road conditions.

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    The magazine EVO is saying that Auto Motor und Sports
    lap times at Nurburgring are not exactly what they seem.

    Evo says that AMS lap times are not based upon a complete lap of the circuit.

    "industry and Auto Motor und Sport lap times aren't actually for a complete lap - the timing begins at the end of the old pit lane and ends a few hundred metres further back. It's not a great difference, but probably worth 3 or 4 seconds." 6th paragraph down

    Can anyone confirm or deny this ?

    Just exactly what is a AMS lap of the 'ring? A actual complete lap? A standing or flying start? Or a "almost"
    lap with a projected time? What is their exact method for timing, their technology and "adjustments" if any??

    end of quote

    I asked the following questions on the sportauto forum and got the following answers. they sound plausible to me.

    Hi, ich bin neu in diesem forum und habe ein paar fragen zu den sport-auto rundenzeiten am nürburgring.

    1. handelt es sich dabei um eine volle runde oder besteht ein gap zwischen start und ziel? (so sieht es auf der speedkarte aus).
    2. wenn ja, wie lang ist diese gap?
    3. wenn zb. Porsche mit Röhrl rundenangaben macht, entspricht das testprozedere dann demjenigen von sport-auto oder was sind die unterschiede?
    4. wie werden rundenzeiten für offizielle rundenrekorde normalerweise gemessen, auch mit dieser 'lücke' oder ohne (ich vermute eher ohne)
    5. misst sport-auto die runden mit stehendem start?

    1. Das ist nicht die volle Runde.
    2. ca. 150 m.
    3. Soweit mir bekannt ist fährt auch Walter Röhrl diese Version.
    4. Offizielle Rundenrekorde werden auch so gemessen.
    5. sport auto misst mit fliegendem Start.

    in summary: sportauto measures with flying start (not standing as someone suggested once), the lap is not full as approx. 150m are missing, this is the version Röhrl also drives for Porsche and the way the official records are measured as well (eg the radical record).

    hope this helps, cheers

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Quote:
    nberry said:

    The reason for the Ring is durability putting the car under stress at high speeds. The Ring times somehow morphed into a criteria for "best sport car perf." primarily by our Europeans friends. Don't buy into it.



    You may have a point here indeed - for those not using a sportscar for what it's made for (read: cruising on the Highway @ 55 mph) NBR times are completely meaningless indeed, but HHR times even more so (we have a saying for that in German: Perlen vor die Säue werfen)
    But I understood from some of your previous posts that you think sportscars are becoming pointless anyway in the near future - in such a scenario you might be right

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Carlos, the grip you fail to grasp is real world driving performance of a sport car is night and day different than the Ring. In the real world because of limited space and time, braking, acceleration and manuevering in short spurts are at a premium. Not eight minutes of driving at almost full throttle.

    The fact that a car does the Ring 10 sec faster than another car does not mean it is a better performing sport car. All you have to do is look at the Hockenheim times to understand the difference.



    I was going to explain to you for the second time, in the same thread, what's the monumental diference with the N'Ring and Hockeheim tracks and what do their different lap time performances tell you about the car, and how a car that does well in the Nring does not necesarily mean it will do well in HH and vicecersa, and how having both laps to compare tells you a bit more about the car's perfomance or its setup, but I think it would be useless... go back and reread some posts.

    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    While the Ring offers an excellent venue for comparing "high performance" sports cars, I do have a concern with it.

    Because of its considerable length, it's more difficult (and time consuming) for drivers to familiarize themselves to it.

    If you were to have 5 different drivers lapping the same car, IMO their times could easily differ by several seconds (2,5,10??), while "much less" at a shorter venue.

    Let's not forget, longer/faster tracks allow faster cars to show their potential. IMO short/slow tracks are not the best way to evaluate cars with 400+hp. In addition, smooth tracks can also not be very representative of real-world road conditions.

    Overall, it's hard to argue against using the Ring's times as a good measure of a vehicles real-world performance capabilities. Just don't get too excited about a 2 second difference.


    Re: AMS Faking Ring Lap Times ?

    Quote:
    mp said:
    While the Ring offers an excellent venue for comparing "high performance" sports cars, I do have a concern with it.

    Because of its considerable length, it's more difficult (and time consuming) for drivers to familiarize themselves to it.

    If you were to have 5 different drivers lapping the same car, IMO their times could easily differ by several seconds (2,5,10??), while "much less" at a shorter venue.

    Let's not forget, longer/faster tracks allow faster cars to show their potential. IMO short/slow tracks are not the best way to evaluate cars with 400+hp. In addition, smooth tracks can also not be very representative of real-world road conditions.

    Overall, it's hard to argue against using the Ring's times as a good measure of a vehicles real-world performance capabilities. Just don't get too excited about a 2 second difference.




    You're right...it's only a .39% difference!

     
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