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    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Sorry but the Cayenne hybrid I drove for a few days was horrendous. I didn’t even use less fuel than my Macan Turbo.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    SciFrog:

    Sorry but the Cayenne hybrid I drove for a few days was horrendous. I didn’t even use less fuel than my Macan Turbo.

    Of course, some implementations are better than others; however, hybrids are a necessary economic and technical stopgap measure to bring affordable EVs to market.  Weight becomes less of an issue as battery pack energy densities increase with increasing economies of scale.  Just look at global automotive production of 81.5 million for 2018, with the vast majority, roughly 99% of overall production, being ICE, not EVs.  There's tremendous economic efficiencies in the ICE component production versus that of EVs.  During the transition, hybrids introduce key component systems that are required for EVs, so once production levels of those components increase, EV manufacturers directly benefit through lower component costs and higher product quality.  


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Great, that doesn’t mean you have to like or support hybrids. It is a flawed stop gap technology which is inefficient in resources usage and not very environment friendly if you take into account that you need two sets of engines and batteries.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Most hybrids (like my X5) are bought with the tax benefits in mind. I doubt many would buy them if those benefits would end. I wouldn’t.


    --

    997.2 4S / BMW X5 40e / Donkervoort GT 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    2018-11-01_1635.pngLike here in Finland. Panamera Turbo hybrid have 14 906 eur tax and normal turbo 92 304 eur. Our government want, that people drive with economic cars. 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Now that's fucked up haha 


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    kouvola:

    2018-11-01_1635.pngLike here in Finland. Panamera Turbo hybrid have 14 906 eur tax and normal turbo 92 304 eur. Our government want, that people drive with economic cars. 

    one country where the TurboS E-Hybrid is a bargain Smiley


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    kouvola:

    2018-11-01_1635.pngLike here in Finland. Panamera Turbo hybrid have 14 906 eur tax and normal turbo 92 304 eur. Our government want, that people drive with economic cars. 

    Smiley


    --

    1992 Mercedes-Benz W124 500E  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    In Spain they have almost the same price

    182k vs 190k


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Germany 158k vs. 186k.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    From Mark Webber’s IG account

     

    478A576A-DDE8-42C1-9A95-07999935112F.jpeg


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    1542444467384image.jpeg

    1542444476321image.jpeg

    1542444485937image.jpeg

    Smiley


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    How they managed to turn such an awesome concept into a friggin ugly piece of crap is amazing. I’m waiting for China to make a proper copy of the concept. 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    At first I thought it was the new 718 from the front angry  Porsche is sadly taking the same path as Audi, BMW , Mercedes ..... 

    I hate these corporate looks !  Why do Germans insist on doing so Smiley

    I do not see this with the french or italian car manufacturer 

    Please give me back a proper identity for each model .....


    --

     

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Who cares about the Taycan yes

    Porsche is the sportscars, the racing cars, and mainly the 911.

    As regards the rest of the model range you can find equal or better cars elsewhere, and with less money.


    --

     

    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Gnil:

    At first I thought it was the new 718 from the front angry  Porsche is sadly taking the same path as Audi, BMW , Mercedes ..... 

    I hate these corporate looks !  Why do Germans insist on doing so Smiley

    I do not see this with the french or italian car manufacturer 

    Please give me back a proper identity for each model .....


    --

     

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

     

    +1


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Gnil:

    At first I thought it was the new 718 from the front angry  Porsche is sadly taking the same path as Audi, BMW , Mercedes ..... 

    I hate these corporate looks !  Why do Germans insist on doing so Smiley

    I do not see this with the french or italian car manufacturer 

    Please give me back a proper identity for each model .....


    The "family resemblance" in car design is a general trend, not only German.

    Look at Alfa Romeo for example.

    15424727173842019-AlfaRomeo-BHP-Hero-3cars.jpg

     

     

     


    --

     

    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    We must look more careful on the last spy shots: If you´ll be able to forget the concept-car, the taycan will be a good-looking sports car. It will be much sporty than the Panamera (2nd generation) which is in my opinion also not an ugly car. The Mission e concept is awesome because it has the proportions of a rare supercar. But this concept is not a car for everyday use: It´s totally unpractical and that´s a fact most buyers don´t accept. And after your (and my) first disappointment, you will see that the production car has proportions which can be seen on many Porsche cars which special new elements that define it as as an e-sports car. I think the main problem (and maybe fault) was that Porsche has shown us such an unrealistic concept.

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    reginos:

    The "family resemblance" in car design is a general trend, not only German.

    Look at Alfa Romeo for example.

    15424727173842019-AlfaRomeo-BHP-Hero-3cars.jpg


    --

    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     

    I own a 4C Launch Edition and a Stelvio 280 and can honestly say that apart from the front grille - which is a traditional Alfa design element - the cars could not look more different.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    farina:

    We must look more careful on the last spy shots: If you´ll be able to forget the concept-car, the taycan will be a good-looking sports car. It will be much sporty than the Panamera (2nd generation) which is in my opinion also not an ugly car. The Mission e concept is awesome because it has the proportions of a rare supercar. But this concept is not a car for everyday use: It´s totally unpractical and that´s a fact most buyers don´t accept. And after your (and my) first disappointment, you will see that the production car has proportions which can be seen on many Porsche cars which special new elements that define it as as an e-sports car. I think the main problem (and maybe fault) was that Porsche has shown us such an unrealistic concept.

     

    I wouldn't call the Taycan a sports car and I wouldn't expect it to be faster on the track than the current Panamera Turbo or even GTS but it is definitely a very interesting concept for Porsche.

    If someone is expecting a sports car, he/she will be disappointed. The Taycan is no 911, not even close.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    ISUK:
    reginos:

    The "family resemblance" in car design is a general trend, not only German.

    Look at Alfa Romeo for example.

    15424727173842019-AlfaRomeo-BHP-Hero-3cars.jpg


    --

    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     

    I own a 4C Launch Edition and a Stelvio 280 and can honestly say that apart from the front grille - which is a traditional Alfa design element - the cars could not look more different.

    ISUK how does the Stelvio compare with the Macan?


    --

    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I guess ISUK was talking about CI "embedded" in the car's design. Makes sense though, people need to recognize the brand. Look at the Lamborghini Urus for example, very good CI, considering that this is Lambo's first SUV. Not sure sure about the new Audi Q8, it looks to me (almost) like something else than an Audi but maybe this is Audi's new design language?! Worst design language have most of the Japanese and/or Korean car brands, awful. If these cars wouldn't have brand logos and/or names, nobody could really tell what brand they are. yes Some US cars seem to have a similar issue but it got better over the past couple of years.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    reginos:

    ISUK how does the Stelvio compare with the Macan?

    As wiith any car it is down to personal taste I guess. The Stelvio is a great car in 280  hp petrol form that I have. It has very good

    handling for a car of this size/type and is pretty rapid. It is very comfortable to drive over longer distances and you can certainly tell that the talented engineers from Ferrari, such as Roberto Fedeli, were involved in all aspects of this car's development. Forget any old preconceptions of what you thought about Alfa as the new generation of cars is a world away from what went before in terms of driving dynamics. It is like they leapt at least two model generations if not more with the Stelvio. I can't help but feel that if these guys had been around during the development of the 4C then it would in all probability have consistently beaten the Cayman in comparison tests.

    Having owned a Macan turbo I would say that overall I prefer the Alfa. The Macan felt like a hot hatch if that makes sense rather than an SUV and the interior felt quite small. The Alfa feels far larger inside. I also much prefer the cockpit layout of the Italian car which has a cleaner look than all the buttons in the Porsche yet it still manages to retain buttons for key functions and has a very good HVAC control layout. The build quality is very good with no squeaks or ratlles and my car has been problem free. The large metal gearshift paddles are extremely tactile and pure Ferrari. The Alfa also consumes considerably less petrol than the Macan turbo did when driven in the same style.

    There are great deals to be had on the Stelvio in the UK as Alfa are really struggling to make headway in the market. That is a reflection of old perceptions being hard to break down, poor marketing and a pretty lousy and patchy dealer network. There is absolutely no contest with Porsche in this regard but to get a comparable Macan in terms of performance and equipment I'd have had to spend around £65k here for a GTS which would have included a long list of options that were standard on my Alfa. Instead I paid just over £26k less and can live with an annual visit to the dealer for service for that difference in price. The other strange benefit is that whilst you can spot lots of Macans on the roads here, the Stelvio is a relatively rare sight.

    I haven't driven a Stelvio Quadrifoglio but can fully understand why the motoring press are falling for it based upon my experience with it's more humble sibling. I think Matt Le Blanc got the review of the Stelvio spot on in the Top Gear film.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Thank you, very informative kiss

    I used to be an Alfista (a total of 4 cars) and I'd like Alfa Romeo to rise again.

    It will take a lot of hard work because Alfa have been away for too long and also because the competition has become very accomplished relative to the era when Alfa were dominant.

    I have spoken to a number of people who really like the Giulia and the Stelvio but who are not willing to push the button as yet. Similar to the case of the girl who many would like to go out with but no one wants to marry smiley


    --

     

    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    reginos:

    Thank you, very informative kiss

    I used to be an Alfista (a total of 4 cars) and I'd like Alfa Romeo to rise again.

    It will take a lot of hard work because Alfa have been away for too long and also because the competition has become very accomplished relative to the era when Alfa were dominant.

    I have spoken to a number of people who really like the Giulia and the Stelvio but who are not willing to push the button as yet. Similar to the case of the girl who many would like to go out with but no one wants to marry smiley


    --

     

    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     

    The Giulia sells very bad here in Germany as far as I heard. No word about the Stelvio though.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:
     

    The Giulia sells very bad here in Germany as far as I heard. No word about the Stelvio though.

    Is that really such a surprise given the size, financial clout and the subsequent ability of the big three German car makers to offer such low lease rates in their home market? Smiley The Giulia and Stelvio are very good cars  but market perception of the reliability of the brand lags far behind reality so sales suffer as a result. The positive media reviews of the cars, especially the performance Quadrifoglio versions, have tempted a number of buyers to try the brand for the first time and most real world owner reviews I've read on a number of forums have been extremely positive in both the UK and USA. The thing that is repeatedly highlighted by owners is the great driving dynamics of the cars - most often from people who have come out of front wheel drive competitors like Audi. Alfa have delivered cars for enthusiasts but it seems the wider market is more interested in things like massive infotainment displays, having 20 cupholders, being surrounded by leather covered surfaces, having a badge on the hood that their friends/neighbours recognise as premium etc rather than having a rear wheel drive chassis with carbon propshaft, huge and tactile metal shift paddles, a traction control system calibrated by engineers who want enthusiast drivers to have fun.... and so on.

    The biggest impediment is the quality of the dealer network which is something that is going to be tough for FCA to address whilst the model range is so small. The big, successful dealer groups who could turn round Alfa's fortunes are unlikely to be tempted to invest in such a low volume sales model with lots of broken promises behind the brand on new model development. Until that aspect of the business is changed then sales will remain a challenge. FCA should seriuosly consider investing in it's own sales network to get things off the ground and gain direct control over this vital aspect of it's future success.

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Quite a few Stelvio around here . A bit less Giulia , only see it once and a while . 

    We have no nationalism in our market ( easy we have no car constructor indecision )  for that reason people here are open  to any brands . Alfa has always been a choice for lots of people , and so does fro example Mustang , or japanese car makers 


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Giulia and Stelvio have done well in some magazine tests against BMW and even Porsche. However even in magazines there was no knockout punch but some wins on points. The cars are good but not a clear revelation compared to the establishment.

    Often the favourites of testers are different to what the public purchase. For a long time BMW or Mercedes buyer switching to Alfa is something like an experiment and the majority who pay for cars with their own money are not willing to take the risk. Had the Giulia been at say,  half the price some might take the plunge but this is an impossibility of course.

    Besides, being enthusiastic about a car during a test drive or even during the initial months of ownership is different to what you might experience in 3 or 4 or 5 years of tenure and at resale.

    Alfa Romeo have good intentions but I don't think this is enough for a resurrection.


    --

     

    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Stelvio is selling really well in Spain 3.117 units so far. Mercedes GLC 14.423, BMW X3 10.854, Audi Q5 5.232, Macan 3.544, Cayenne 2.424

    Giulia is selling really bad, 648 units (Jan-Oct), meanwhile Audi A4 5.395, A5 Sportback 1.927, Mercedes C 4.589, BMW 3 4.067. Even Panamera 339

    You can clearly see that people is not buying regular sedans anymore


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Hi all!

    New appetizer for all Taycan enthusiasts:

     

    Willkommensgruß des Vorstandes

     

    Cheers


    --

    -----------------------------------

    BMW i8 * RRS 


     
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