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    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    Perfectly understandable Dave, must be really frustrating! surprise


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    What are the flippers asking for the 3RS in Europe?


    --

    Being adventurous can be risky but routine is lethal.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    nberry:

    What are the flippers asking for the 3RS in Europe?

    There’s probably a premium for a car before the filters are mandated...


    --

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    nberry:

    What are the flippers asking for the 3RS in Europe?

    In Switzerland , between 10 and 25% 


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    Carlos from Spain:

    Perfectly understandable Dave, must be really frustrating! surprise

    It is frustrating and what is more frustrating is that this isn't the first time. You'd think that Porsche would learn from their past mistakes.

    The key word here is...communication. You don't let an interested customer or someone who actually has a confirmed order of a car hanging. You tell him what is going on, you inform him about delays and tell him why. You keep the customers in the loop and don't let the dealer do the job alone (because they usually don't do their job).

    This whole emissions scandal disaster doesn't surprise me at all, it is typical for the car industry to try to keep everything under wraps, in the hope that it will fade and nobody will be interested anymore.

    I have a very open policy with my customers: When i cannot get them a certain product or there is a delay, I try to find out as more information as I can and I communicate it to them (if they are interested and ask of course...). I have customers for many years now who come only to my business because there is a certain trust between us. There are cheaper businesses than mine but they still come. They trust me and they know that I don't BS them.

    Maybe time for the car industry to rethink their strategy because honestly, I am not even affected by the emissions scandal and I'm still pissed.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    I am on the same page. Despite track record in buying new Porsche including 991.1 GT3 RS and track records all together (tracking Porsches in FIA races) I got denied a R, a 991.2 GT2 RS and 991.2 GT3 RS.

    I can't wait to see the back fire happening on Porsche if both things happen in same timing:

    - Trump close borders for Porsche (affecting 40% of Porsche turnover)

    - emission or loud regulation in Europe does not allow Porsche to sell GT cars anymore

    Could be interesting...can't wait for a call from my dealer to beg me to buy a muted GT car...

     

     

     

     

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    Inspirine:

    I am on the same page. Despite track record in buying new Porsche including 991.1 GT3 RS and track records all together (tracking Porsches in FIA races) I got denied a R, a 991.2 GT2 RS and 991.2 GT3 RS.

    I can't wait to see the back fire happening on Porsche if both things happen in same timing:

    - Trump close borders for Porsche (affecting 40% of Porsche turnover)

    ??? The US could raise import taxes on cars (by 25% or so...) but thats it. Porsche would still be able to sell cars in the US, just at higher prices...or they just bump up EU prices and keep US prices the same. Smiley

    - emission or loud regulation in Europe does not allow Porsche to sell GT cars anymore

    Of course Porsche could still sell GT cars but they would be much quieter. N/a cars can still be sold with particulate filter and lower emissions, it would only increase cost (to make them powerful and clean at the same time). 

    Could be interesting...can't wait for a call from my dealer to beg me to buy a muted GT car...

    Don't count on that. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    Inspirine:

    I am on the same page. Despite track record in buying new Porsche including 991.1 GT3 RS and track records all together (tracking Porsches in FIA races) I got denied a R, a 991.2 GT2 RS and 991.2 GT3 RS.

    I can't wait to see the back fire happening on Porsche if both things happen in same timing:

    They could not be more incompetent on this matter even if they tried. A guy here with zero previous Porsche history and not precisely a good image for a brand either (won't go into details) got a GT2RS of the bat with no problems, now the car is being flipped for a nice premium.

    While a friend of mine with a collection of Porsches (some very iconic) and long time customer didn't get neither the GT3RS nor GT2RS (and he has a 997GT2RS). Well done Porsche.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    What is ironic is that 991.1 GT3 RS with delivery miles  are popping up all over the second hand market , at least here in  Switzerland , and there selling prices are  about 15% lover then what they paid them new .... mail

    And another consequence is that used ones drop in price just like before , exactly like before there was any craze for the GT models .


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    Net result: cars which could have been in the hands of enthusiasts at MSRP, and been used and loved - instead sat in 2nd tier dealers' showrooms for 2 years, and they eventually take a loss on them.  Brilliant.


    --

    2015 911 GT3, 1964 Type 1


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    The new motor made the previous GT3 (.1) essentially pedestrian. Ask yourself, has this happened before?  Is not every subsequent generation quicker and better. A stock base model 911 now smokes a 996 GT3. The GTS wastes even a 997 GT3. All this extra risk to go a bit quicker for a couple of years.  In the end my old Turbo reminds me that chasing that last few seconds or HP is crazy expensive. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    DaveGordon:

    Net result: cars which could have been in the hands of enthusiasts at MSRP, and been used and loved - instead sat in 2nd tier dealers' showrooms for 2 years, and they eventually take a loss on them.  Brilliant.

    I always wonder if this happens intentionally (speculation/high demand sometimes help to raise brand awareness and exclusivity) or if Porsche just doesn't want to get involved and/or can't do much about how dealers, especially the high volume ones, sell these GT models.

    I also have a slight problem to understand Porsche's strategy: They know how many people want a GT3/GT3 RS. So why not bump up production? It would make more sense than flooding dealers with pre-built/configured Carrera and/or Cayman/Boxster models.  Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    They've even got signed sales contracts for a known number of 3RS.. At least that was how my dealer worked... everyone who wanted one signed a contract and entered it in the system, then they decided who got the allocations later.  So there's still a ton of orders in the system awaiting allocations.


    --

    2015 911 GT3, 1964 Type 1


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    Leawood911:

    The new motor made the previous GT3 (.1) essentially pedestrian. Ask yourself, has this happened before?  Is not every subsequent generation quicker and better. A stock base model 911 now smokes a 996 GT3. The GTS wastes even a 997 GT3. All this extra risk to go a bit quicker for a couple of years.  In the end my old Turbo reminds me that chasing that last few seconds or HP is crazy expensive. 

    It does not have anything to do with the engine , at least on the RS . 2 nd buyers do not complain about that  or use that to lower the price . What they are using is the number of cars on the market . 


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    RC:
    DaveGordon:

    Net result: cars which could have been in the hands of enthusiasts at MSRP, and been used and loved - instead sat in 2nd tier dealers' showrooms for 2 years, and they eventually take a loss on them.  Brilliant.

    I always wonder if this happens intentionally (speculation/high demand sometimes help to raise brand awareness and exclusivity) or if Porsche just doesn't want to get involved and/or can't do much about how dealers, especially the high volume ones, sell these GT models.

    I also have a slight problem to understand Porsche's strategy: They know how many people want a GT3/GT3 RS. So why not bump up production? It would make more sense than flooding dealers with pre-built/configured Carrera and/or Cayman/Boxster models.  Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

     

    I also wonder if it is not in Porsche short term interest to act like this . They sell more cars then what they would . Speculation has pushed up the demand .

    At the same time , what they would loose on speculators buy , they could gain on satisfying all clients .

     


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    I think in CH we've reached the point where PZ's are deeply involved in this whole mess - "they" (owners of the PZ or call them local "decision makers")  allocate as per their personal priorities and benefit from 3rd parties sales as well.... I've heard disturbing things without mentioning here to much but I am fed up with all of them. I will not buy a Porsche for a long time anymore. In my area where I live I can get tmrw a exclusive, a R , 4-5 GT2RS, 2 black Mk2 3RS , just not from Porsche.....


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    BjoernB:

    I think in CH we've reached the point where PZ's are deeply involved in this whole mess - "they" (owners of the PZ or call them local "decision makers")  allocate as per their personal priorities and benefit from 3rd parties sales as well.... I've heard disturbing things without mentioning here to much but I am fed up with all of them. I will not buy a Porsche for a long time anymore. In my area where I live I can get tmrw a exclusive, a R , 4-5 GT2RS, 2 black Mk2 3RS , just not from Porsche.....

    So maybe this is the dealer's way to "thank" Porsche for their bad margins and other issues?! Smiley

    I start to think that some dealers need that "extra" business to keep their businesses up and running. Many think Porsche dealerships are goldmines but as far as I heard, they aren't, not even the bigger ones.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    Leawood911:

    The new motor made the previous GT3 (.1) essentially pedestrian. Ask yourself, has this happened before?  Is not every subsequent generation quicker and better. A stock base model 911 now smokes a 996 GT3. The GTS wastes even a 997 GT3. All this extra risk to go a bit quicker for a couple of years.  In the end my old Turbo reminds me that chasing that last few seconds or HP is crazy expensive. 

    The 991.2 GTS wastes even a 991.1 GT3 indecision


    --

    2017 991.2 Carrera 4 GTS | GT Silver Metallic - The GT3 Killah!
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    bluelines:
    Leawood911:

    The new motor made the previous GT3 (.1) essentially pedestrian. Ask yourself, has this happened before?  Is not every subsequent generation quicker and better. A stock base model 911 now smokes a 996 GT3. The GTS wastes even a 997 GT3. All this extra risk to go a bit quicker for a couple of years.  In the end my old Turbo reminds me that chasing that last few seconds or HP is crazy expensive. 

    The 991.2 GTS wastes even a 991.1 GT3 indecision

    Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    Flooding the market with GT cars will negatively impact all Porsche used cars sales. Dealerships rely on used cars sales to keep them afloat. 

    Furthermore, to blame Porsche for the flipper issues is unfair. The first line of defense against flipping is the dealer. In the US the dealer chooses the customer. Customers with long time relationships get the coveted cars. 


    --

    Being adventurous can be risky but routine is lethal.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    nberry:

    Flooding the market with GT cars will negatively impact all Porsche used cars sales. Dealerships rely on used cars sales to keep them afloat. 

    Hmm...and flooding the market with Carrera models works differently? Smiley

    Furthermore, to blame Porsche for the flipper issues is unfair. The first line of defense against flipping is the dealer. In the US the dealer chooses the customer. Customers with long time relationships get the coveted cars. 

    Things aren't as simple as they should be...dealers are often looking for an extra profit (sometimes up to a point where they ask the customer to buy a Panamera Turbo S as well if they want a GT2 RS for example Smiley) or they keep the car for themselves to flip it later on, sometimes the owner or manager of the dealership keeps the car for himself or they sell it to the best paying customer. I get it, demand and all but Porsche could easily deflate the outrage in the Porsche community by not only offering more cars but prioritizing those customers who have a Porsche "track record".

    Most people here don't care about the value of the cars, they care to be able to have and drive one. Of course it is nice for owners to be able to sell the car with a profit or a car keeping it's value but in the end, most of us here care about the driving experience and fun. How can some of us have this experience and fun without a car? Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    RC:
    BjoernB:

    I think in CH we've reached the point where PZ's are deeply involved in this whole mess - "they" (owners of the PZ or call them local "decision makers")  allocate as per their personal priorities and benefit from 3rd parties sales as well.... I've heard disturbing things without mentioning here to much but I am fed up with all of them. I will not buy a Porsche for a long time anymore. In my area where I live I can get tmrw a exclusive, a R , 4-5 GT2RS, 2 black Mk2 3RS , just not from Porsche.....

    So maybe this is the dealer's way to "thank" Porsche for their bad margins and other issues?! Smiley

    I start to think that some dealers need that "extra" business to keep their businesses up and running. Many think Porsche dealerships are goldmines but as far as I heard, they aren't, not even the bigger ones.

    This is true, Porsche has been controlling prices too tightly without giving dealers much power in changing the prices. For example, no one in our region buys a bmw at retail because the price is very high and therefore  the dealers set the prices and give discounts as the market dictates (20%+ discounts are common except for M models). 

    The solution for the current mess will not appeal to many and that is setting a higher retail price and if demand is low prices would go down. The dealers would be able to make the money instead of the flippers and we would lose more when we sell ours. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    The solution is to do Dutch auctions in batches for the most sought out models... Win-win.

    Nick, sorry but you would have a very different opinion if you could not actually buy a GT car at MSRP. There are no scenarios where the current system is defendable. It is disgusting imho and Porsche and Ferrari should be ashamed to play it. And I don’t even want to buy one of these cars... My relation with my Ferrai dealer has gone from ignorance to disgust as not only during the 612 “restauration” at a third party shop we realized they have been doing several very very sloppy maintenance all these years (silicon in gearbox oil, hoses needed to be replaced, steering liquid leak and many others) but they have been treating me like I am only a big piggy bank for them while trying to swap my California for a newer one or trying to see if there is interest out there for the manual 612. Basically my Ferrai dealer is there only to deal with newer cars and extract maximum $$ for them using people’s ignorance while preserving a small group of VIP that cater to their scheme.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    SciFrog:

    The solution is to do Dutch auctions in batches for the most sought out models... Win-win.

    Nick, sorry but you would have a very different opinion if you could not actually buy a GT car at MSRP. There are no scenarios where the current system is defendable. It is disgusting imho and Porsche and Ferrari should be ashamed to play it. And I don’t been want to buy one of these cars... My relation with my Ferrai dealer has gone from ignorance to disgust as not only during the 612 “restauration” at a third party shop we realized they have been doing several very very sloppy maintenance all these years (silicon in gearbox oil, hoses needed to be replaced, steering liquid leak and many others) but they have been treating me like I am only a big piggy bank for them while trying to swap my California for a newer one or trying to see if there is interest out there for the manual 612. Basically my Ferrai dealer is there only to deal with newer cars and extract maximum $$ for them using people’s ignorance.

    SmileySmileySmiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    My dealer is not that way. What you're asserting about your dealer is tantamount to fraud. If I were in your shoes, I would have a heart to heart with the general manager of the dealership. Only then will you get an indication as to what type of client they consider you.Smiley

    My dealers whether Porsche or Landrover treat me like I am their only customer. From sales to service, they go out of their way to satisfy my requests.Smiley


    --

    Being adventurous can be risky but routine is lethal.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    RC:
    Inspirine:

    I am on the same page. Despite track record in buying new Porsche including 991.1 GT3 RS and track records all together (tracking Porsches in FIA races) I got denied a R, a 991.2 GT2 RS and 991.2 GT3 RS.

    I can't wait to see the back fire happening on Porsche if both things happen in same timing:

    - Trump close borders for Porsche (affecting 40% of Porsche turnover)

    ??? The US could raise import taxes on cars (by 25% or so...) but thats it. Porsche would still be able to sell cars in the US, just at higher prices...or they just bump up EU prices and keep US prices the same. Smiley

     

    It seems likely Porsche would reallocate cars to other (more attractive) markets. Import duties mostly destroy the wealth of the US citizens. But it will take time until the simpler voters will understand Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    RC:
    nberry:

    Flooding the market with GT cars will negatively impact all Porsche used cars sales. Dealerships rely on used cars sales to keep them afloat. 

    Hmm...and flooding the market with Carrera models works differently? Smiley

     

    There is a big difference - the "core" group of people interested in GT cars is much, much smaller than the one interested in a regular 991. Only a high number of temporary, speculative customers create a (temporarily) higher demand for GT cars. When these are gone the GT market will crash.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    MKSGR:

    There is a big difference - the "core" group of people interested in GT cars is much, much smaller than the one interested in a regular 991. Only a high number of temporary, speculative customers create a (temporarily) higher demand for GT cars. When these are gone the GT market will crash.

    I hope it will happen in a short time. I am less and less interested to buy newer product with crazy euro regulations or differences of product specification from Gulf compared to euro zone. Smiley

    So it means, I will look backwards and start seriously to get into older ladies Smiley

    964RS, 993RS, 996RS and 997RS,  are Smiley 991, I know them enough already.Smiley


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    MKSGR:
    RC:
    Inspirine:

    I am on the same page. Despite track record in buying new Porsche including 991.1 GT3 RS and track records all together (tracking Porsches in FIA races) I got denied a R, a 991.2 GT2 RS and 991.2 GT3 RS.

    I can't wait to see the back fire happening on Porsche if both things happen in same timing:

    - Trump close borders for Porsche (affecting 40% of Porsche turnover)

    ??? The US could raise import taxes on cars (by 25% or so...) but thats it. Porsche would still be able to sell cars in the US, just at higher prices...or they just bump up EU prices and keep US prices the same. Smiley

     

    It seems likely Porsche would reallocate cars to other (more attractive) markets. Import duties mostly destroy the wealth of the US citizens. But it will take time until the simpler voters will understand Smiley

     If tariffs are assessed by the US, they will have significant impact on German auto manufacturers. According to some experts, many will not survive should the tariffs be permanent. Don't underestimate the importance of the US market.

    German car manufacturers are so concerned they have gone on record to say tariffs on all cars regardless of of the place of manufacture should be tariff free. The German representative is proposing this to the US delegation.


    --

    Being adventurous can be risky but routine is lethal.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018)

    nberry:
    MKSGR:
    RC:
    Inspirine:

    I am on the same page. Despite track record in buying new Porsche including 991.1 GT3 RS and track records all together (tracking Porsches in FIA races) I got denied a R, a 991.2 GT2 RS and 991.2 GT3 RS.

    I can't wait to see the back fire happening on Porsche if both things happen in same timing:

    - Trump close borders for Porsche (affecting 40% of Porsche turnover)

    ??? The US could raise import taxes on cars (by 25% or so...) but thats it. Porsche would still be able to sell cars in the US, just at higher prices...or they just bump up EU prices and keep US prices the same. Smiley

     

    It seems likely Porsche would reallocate cars to other (more attractive) markets. Import duties mostly destroy the wealth of the US citizens. But it will take time until the simpler voters will understand Smiley

     If tariffs are assessed by the US, they will have significant impact on German auto manufacturers. According to some experts, many will not survive should the tariffs be permanent. Don't underestimate the importance of the US market.

    German car manufacturers are so concerned they have gone on record to say tariffs on all cars regardless of of the place of manufacture should be tariff free. The German representative is proposing this to the US delegation.

    This is not the likely scenario: part of the discount will be passed on to US buyers, part will be borne by the shareholders (international, not so many Germans). The biggest economic disadvantage will be born by US buyers who no longer get what they want - or who have to pay more. The same problem is much bigger with steel as the higher material cost will be borne by US citizens alone (transformed in retail prices of nearly all commodities). The US citizens will carry the heaviest load. In the medium term the hit on the US economy will increase further as (temporary) protection from superior international products will render US producers incompetent too handle international competition when markets will reopen (as US producers were protected and thus allowed to sell crap for high prices given temporary artificial barriers to trade). I.e. as soon as Trump is no longer in the office the effect on the US economy will be even worse then in the short term. 

    These findings are not my own. They can be read in any standard book on economics Smiley


     
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