Crown

Board: Porsche - Carrera GT / 918 Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    reginos:
    RC:
    nberry:

    There is one safety device Porsche should have installed on the car and we all know what that is.

    PSM (or better known as ESP) wasn't a "common" feature in sports cars by the time the CGT was presented, so why should they (Porsche) have installed it?

    Nowadays, it would be much more difficult to put a car without ESP on the market, simply because a lawsuit would be waiting to happen. They (lawyers) could always argue that ESP is a "common" feature on similar products.

    PSM was introduced on the 996 Carrera 4 in MY1999 and became an option across the range as from MY2000. I had ordered my 986S with PSM.

    IMO the CGT that was produced as from 2004 should have it as standard in view of the availability of technology, the price of the car and the huge engine power. And this irrespective of the famous accident.

    However, ESP/ASR/PSM or whatever acronym became a legal requirement very much later in 2011.


    Exactly. For a manufacturer like Porsche it would have been no problem at all to equip the Carrera GT with ESP, at least as an option. I guess it was simply out of marketing reasons why they didn't offer it. Just if they wanted to show their customers "look, this is a CGT, this is a real hardcore sportscar without flappy paddel gearbox and without unnecessary electronic gizmos". This was totally wrong. IMO the biggest flaw of the the CGT is the missing ESP.


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    FWIW, I attending the first Porsche driving school at Road Atlanta in I believe 2000. The Porsche's were equipped with PSM. I recall I was taking a turn in excess of 90mph and in doing so unbalanced the car which could have led to a serious accident. However, the ESP intervened and steadied the car and allowed me to make the necessary maneuvers to save myself from a foolish mistake.

    As I have written so often, a CGT would have been in my garage if it was equipped with PSM. It is a fantastic car.


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    My '99 996 was #564 off the assembly line and it did not have PSM or fly by wire throttle (two are together).  All it had was ABS and almost always BALD all-season tires.  It was a hoot to drive! 

    These guys were good drivers.  I am not willing to say the suspension did not break or that a coolant line had not come loose.  I certainly know what the coolant line failure is like as it happened to me in the 997TT on a treacherous two lane Ozark road, in the dark at about 70mph - in the rain - just a few months ago.  The rain saved my bacon because I was not going as quickly as I would have been in the dry.  PSM never intervened because it did not get to that point.

    I would be very interested to see the 'other' crash report which shows much lower speeds.  FWIW - even if the car failed - shit happens - I don't think anyone should be sued.  Like Nick said - this is about the insurance companies covering their asses.  High profile case with high net worth individuals always draws a crowd of lawyers.


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    There is no question that PSM can be very helpful in such situations, but it is still acting within the laws of physics and input from the driver. 

    However, I find the discussion on PSM or not in this specific case irrelevant. The driver acted carelessly, exceeded the speed limit and it ended in an accident. It was not PSM missing, it was responsibility.


    --

    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    Rossi:
    reginos:
    RC:
    nberry:

    There is one safety device Porsche should have installed on the car and we all know what that is.

    PSM (or better known as ESP) wasn't a "common" feature in sports cars by the time the CGT was presented, so why should they (Porsche) have installed it?

    Nowadays, it would be much more difficult to put a car without ESP on the market, simply because a lawsuit would be waiting to happen. They (lawyers) could always argue that ESP is a "common" feature on similar products.

    PSM was introduced on the 996 Carrera 4 in MY1999 and became an option across the range as from MY2000. I had ordered my 986S with PSM.

    IMO the CGT that was produced as from 2004 should have it as standard in view of the availability of technology, the price of the car and the huge engine power. And this irrespective of the famous accident.

    However, ESP/ASR/PSM or whatever acronym became a legal requirement very much later in 2011.


    Exactly. For a manufacturer like Porsche it would have been no problem at all to equip the Carrera GT with ESP, at least as an option. I guess it was simply out of marketing reasons why they didn't offer it. Just if they wanted to show their customers "look, this is a CGT, this is a real hardcore sportscar without flappy paddel gearbox and without unnecessary electronic gizmos". This was totally wrong. IMO the biggest flaw of the the CGT is the missing ESP.

     

    That could be part of the reason but I'm not so sure that is all the reason behind it, the 996 of the time had PSM but it was not yet compatible with a rear differential, that is why the early 996 Carrera2's  you could option either PSM or rear diff but not both, and in the C4's the PSM was standard so you could not get the rear diff at all.

    That made for less sporty handling dynamics since those PSM Carreras has open diffs and a ABD (Automatic Brake Differential) inlcuded in the PSM system, a crude electronic substitute of a real mecahnical diff that used ABS to correct slip and was not very sporty.

    This was probably not a solution fit for a supercar like the Carrera GT, in fact even the GT3/GT2's of the time did not have PSM either for the same reason.

    It was only till the 996 Carrera Coupe 40th anniversary edition in 2003 that for the first time Porsche managed to marry a rear differential with PSM although a less agressive rear differential setup at that, still probably not accepatble for a Carrera GT that was already presented that same year.

    It wasn't until the 997 model that GT3/GT2's got a PSM/Rear diff that was fit for their sportive character.

    I personally think that that was more the problem with PSM and the Carrera GT, and that it would have probably been developed with it if had it been developed a couple of years later than it did.


    --


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    bridggar:

    Not even as an investment? Can't help thinking they are due a stratospheric adjustment soon. In the UK, 993 TT pricing is just stupid. CGT Pool is drying up and everyone loves a bad-boy.....

    Here too. 997TT can be had for less than a 993 Turbo. CGTs are about 375k USD and up.


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    JoeRockhead:
    bridggar:

    Not even as an investment? Can't help thinking they are due a stratospheric adjustment soon. In the UK, 993 TT pricing is just stupid. CGT Pool is drying up and everyone loves a bad-boy.....

    Here too. 997TT can be had for less than a 993 Turbo. CGTs are about 375k USD and up.

    Paint to Sample CGT are worth 600 - 700 K USD already today .


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    they were well Aware of what they were driving: a handfull of a car....

     


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    nberry:

    FWIW, I attending the first Porsche driving school at Road Atlanta in I believe 2000. The Porsche's were equipped with PSM. I recall I was taking a turn in excess of 90mph and in doing so unbalanced the car which could have led to a serious accident. However, the ESP intervened and steadied the car and allowed me to make the necessary maneuvers to save myself from a foolish mistake.

    As I have written so often, a CGT would have been in my garage if it was equipped with PSM. It is a fantastic car.

    PSM/ESP was not a common feature on super sports cars when the CGT was introduced, I was not talking about Porsche cars. Porsche would have risked not to sell a single CGT with PSM/ESP. Look at the idiotic GT3 and PDK discussion and you'll understand. I also remember how many people were opposed to introducing PSM on the GT3 a while ago.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    Ferrari had it on the 612 at the same time. No excuses really...


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    "Look at the idiotic GT3 and PDK discussion"

    totally uncalled for RC.    do you really want to insult people or further intelligent discussion?  Wanting to shift a sport car is now idiotic?  Billiant stance for a sports car forum. Ever wonder why some people just walk away from this forum and never post again?  Cheers...

     

     


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    SciFrog:

    Ferrari had it on the 612 at the same time. No excuses really...

    The Ferrari 612 is a GT and not really what someone would call a super sports car like the CGT. What about the other Ferrari models? Lamborghini? Aston Martin? Maserati? Most manufacturers in North America, like Toyota or Ford, introduced ESP in their cars starting 2009, even if some single models had it many years earlier. I'd say that ESP became a "common" feature around 2008/2009 on most cars.

    Also, in the US, ESP became mandatory (as far as I know) starting 2012. So please...there is no excuse to use this as an excuse that the CGT should have had ESP. 

    Last but not least, ESP cannot defy physics. In the case of Paul Walker an Mr. Rodas, excessive speed would have had the same outcome with EPS onboard. Especially since someone like Rodas would have turned off the ESP (or switched to a sportier mode) anyway. I drive around in Sport or Sport Plus mode most of the time and I'm not a professional race car driver like Rodas. Just saying.

    The whole ESP discussion is just utter nonsense, considering the fact why the accident happened in the first place: Excessive speed. There is no denying that.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    Leawood911:

    "Look at the idiotic GT3 and PDK discussion"

    totally uncalled for RC.    do you really want to insult people or further intelligent discussion?  Wanting to shift a sport car is now idiotic?  Billiant stance for a sports car forum. Ever wonder why some people just walk away from this forum and never post again?  Cheers...

    The desire of single individuals to have a manual transmission on the GT3 is not idiotic but the whole discussion we (and others) had was pretty much idiotic, with a few exceptions. The same arguments over and over again without any consequences to the final product or a change in mentality. Not that it was unexpected. Smiley

    Also, don't worry, I am going to be the first to walk away from this forum because lately, I really don't see the point to feed the lions anymore. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    SciFrog:

    Ferrari had it on the 612 at the same time. No excuses really...

    I would rather compare the CGT to the contemporary ENZO that did not have too the ESP.  


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    m4ever:
    SciFrog:

    Ferrari had it on the 612 at the same time. No excuses really...

    I would rather compare the CGT to the contemporary ENZO that did not have too the ESP.  

    Smiley

    BlueflameSmiley


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    RC:
     

    Also, don't worry, I am going to be the first to walk away from this forum because lately, I really don't see the point to feed the lions anymore. Smiley

    You have mentioned this twice in the last weeks . So, what is your plan ? Are you really thinking about quitting RT ? 


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    blueflame:
    m4ever:
    SciFrog:

    Ferrari had it on the 612 at the same time. No excuses really...

    I would rather compare the CGT to the contemporary ENZO that did not have too the ESP.  

    Smiley

    BlueflameSmiley


    AFAIK the Enzo did have ESP. Smiley


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    Rossi:
    blueflame:
    m4ever:
    SciFrog:

    Ferrari had it on the 612 at the same time. No excuses really...

    I would rather compare the CGT to the contemporary ENZO that did not have too the ESP.  

    Smiley

    BlueflameSmiley


    AFAIK the Enzo did have ESP. Smiley

    Let´s ask Futch or MikeS ?? Smiley

    BlueflameSmiley


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    asr-button_a_s.jpg

    ENZO steering wheel, ASR OFF

    Is it a proper ASR or just Traction Control?

    I think it is the former, as contemporary tests mentioned selecting the NO ASR mode for track driving.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    Imho the Ferrari ESP was called CST (controllo stabilita') and appeared first on the 612/430 but not on the Enzo. 

     

     

     

     


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    I think you are correct. It says CST on my steering wheel...


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    Gnil:
    RC:
     

    Also, don't worry, I am going to be the first to walk away from this forum because lately, I really don't see the point to feed the lions anymore. Smiley

    You have mentioned this twice in the last weeks . So, what is your plan ? Are you really thinking about quitting RT

    Yes. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    RC:

    You have mentioned this twice in the last weeks . So, what is your plan ? Are you really thinking about quitting RT

    Yes. 

    How come ? 


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    RC 'I really don't see the point to feed the lions anymore' Smiley

     


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    Rennteam without RC would be like Porsche without the 911. Hope will not happen.


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    RC has to make his points but sometimes he has more info than us. So there is no "discussion"... I can see that being frustrating at times.


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    m4ever:

    Rennteam without RC would be like Porsche without the 911. Hope will not happen.

    Well said!Smiley


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    RC:
    Gnil:
    RC:
     

    Also, don't worry, I am going to be the first to walk away from this forum because lately, I really don't see the point to feed the lions anymore. Smiley

    You have mentioned this twice in the last weeks . So, what is your plan ? Are you really thinking about quitting RT

    Yes. 

    Hope you reconsider or maybe just a short break to recharge your energy?


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    When Rennteam changed soft wear a few years back, there was big planes to become a major ''social'' car community crossing into different languages . 

    Today no one is really looking after the soft wear  ( Eunice dit it for a few years, but I understand that the owner now does not put much time and thoughts into this forum anymore ) . 

    As on any forums, there will always be people '' attacking'' or dismissing or contradicting . RC having his strong personality , and often not wanting to let go , has probably slowly worn him out a bit . 

    Porsche not bringing out very exciting ( except 918 ) products must also contribute to less passion .

    RC, maybe taking one step back would be enough to '' recharge your energy ''  and interest in this forum  

    You have fed very valuable informations over the years to RT , I am sure 95 % of the users appreciate . Don't let the 5% spoil it .


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    +1


    --

    991 (what a car!) XC90 - 120 Cab - 2 kids, 1 dog


     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New 991.2 GT3 (2017) 12/5/18 8:49 AM
    Porker
    408582 5201
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA 12/13/18 8:47 PM
    Enmanuel
    323960 2007
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 12/8/18 8:33 AM
    Joost
     
     
     
     
     
    213059 1083
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 12/13/18 10:58 PM
    Porker
    197806 2678
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 12/3/18 7:19 AM
    PSG
    127261 2437
    AMG Sticky Mercedes E63 S AMG (2018) - Short Review (updated on a regular basis) 12/6/18 3:34 PM
    RCA
    34069 321
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 12/14/18 3:44 AM
    WhoopsyM
    17992 294
    Porsche Sticky Paint protection film 9/25/18 6:14 PM
    throt
    14386 121
    Porsche Sticky Child seats in a 991 11/29/18 3:43 PM
    RCA
    13835 35
    Porsche 991 GT3 RS 1/9/18 1:43 PM
    Kimi
    526831 5816
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S 4/3/18 9:15 AM
    KresoF1
    484167 4254
    Porsche 992 (Next 911 generation 2019/2020) Thread Closed 11/29/18 11:38 AM
    RCA
    296186 3195
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 9/13/18 10:12 AM
    RCA
    280822 2589
    Porsche Cayman GT4 11/29/18 3:41 PM
    xpto
    266690 2622
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S 1/23/18 12:27 AM
    RCA
    192127 1074
    Ferrari 488 GTB/GTS 11/26/18 11:32 AM
    Rossi
    191775 1768
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 12/13/18 9:22 AM
    RCA
    183179 3285
    Others Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016 model) - Review (updated Feb 13th 2017) 12/13/18 4:36 PM
    RCA
    151274 2475
    Porsche Boxster Spyder (981) 8/31/18 10:25 AM
    WAY
    143201 757
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 1/6/18 10:41 PM
    Wonderbar
    128911 1284
    Ferrari Ferrari F12 Berlinetta / 599 GTO Successor 5/22/18 9:16 PM
    RCA
    111957 789
    Others VW caught cheating emissions tests 5/3/18 7:52 PM
    CGX car nut
    106782 871
    Porsche Porsche Mission E - the future of Porsche? 12/10/18 3:41 PM
    WhoopsyM
    89992 1252
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 12/7/18 10:15 PM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    67239 673
    Porsche UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne 2/6/18 2:13 PM
    RCA
    57462 423
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Carrera GTS models 11/3/18 11:09 AM
    bluelines
    47088 477
    Others Tesla Roadster 12/13/18 11:43 AM
    Leawood911
    46494 1478
    Others Tesla Model X Thread Closed 2/23/18 3:41 PM
    RCA
    42965 1122
    AMG AMG GT R 11/30/18 4:10 PM
    RCA
    42247 605
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo S Exclusive Series (2017) 12/4/18 3:17 PM
    BiTurbo
    39734 650
    280 items found, displaying 1 to 30.