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    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    br d let me know too

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Quote:
    Texas911 said:
    Hey MMD so you're saying that engineers and designer WANT the few bad engines to fail? I guess that makes them upset when those big bad financial guys get in their way.




    You're a word twister. Engine is very complex, quality control is not an exact science, a small percentage are not as strong as the others and will fail more easily. To keep as many engines running as long as possible during the warrenty period, they do what they can and that includes making break in reccos very conservative.

    Go read the history of engine development at Porsche.

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Good lord, I hope no inadvertent typographical errors show up in the owner's manuals of Texas911's future cars. I've got a feeling that if the manual tells him, in clear and simple instructions, to drive his car off a cliff, we'll be reading his obituary.

    Yes, the manual is clear and simple. For everybody, including simple people, to understand. But engine break-in is complex. Porsche doesn't bother writing a chapter on the subject. They just keep it simple so that they hopefully achieve their goal, which is keeping owners from driving it like they stole it off the lot. You'll notice that where they recommend 93 octane fuel (is it 93 or 92, hell, I can't remember), that they don't go into an ad nauseum explanation of the relationship between compression, ignition timing, altitude/oxygen density, and combustion temperatures that dictate the octane of gas you'll need. That would confuse the buhjeezus out of Jessica Simpson, if she were to buy a new 997 for a toy. No, they tell you to dump in 93 and be done with it. It's safe and adequate for all conditions, although it's overkill at higher altitudes. Of course, since they don't say that in the manual, I suppose you think I'm just spewing CONJECTURE. Ummm, o.k., whatever.... Excuse me for having a bit more automotive background than what you'd read in a dumbed-down-for-public-consumption owner's manual. It's not that I don't "believe" the owner's manual (haven't I said this before? Do you read my posts?), it's that I've got enough common sense combined with experience to take a few safe liberties beyond the basic Joe-Public safe-side dribble they print. For instance, I know that I can adjust tire pressures to suit my own driving styles, and to optimize tire wear if I so choose. Not follow the factory recommended pressure??? I MUST BE CRAZY!!

    I'll repeat, like a broken record, break-in is not a black & white subject. The fact that Porsche simplifies it for a safe and conservative policy in the manual, does not magically make it a black & white subject. If you choose to treat it as such, fine, follow the manual like a dedicated devotee to all that is printed. My Porsche Master Tech chuckles at that break-in procedure. I suppose he should be fired, as he can't take simple instruction from the owner's manual. If you don't believe me, go ask your local service department what they HONESTLY think about the break-in procedure.

    As for the Amish, they don't own computers, so they're fair game!!! LOL!!!!

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Quote:
    Al Pettee said:
    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Believing in conspiracy theories seems to be part of the "American way of life" these days.

    My personal (conspiracy) theory is that this is down to some stuff "they" are putting in the water in Lake Powell, which is then drunk by all locals in and tourists travelling thru the southwest, which turns their brains to mush.



    Hey Fritzo, bud,

    Your posts are alot more coherent sounding when you eschew any straying into politics, so can we avoid the parochial and paranoiac anti-American references. I don't think RC or any of the other guys who have assembled this forum wish this to become a state-based ad hominem diatribe amongst assorted nationalities. Many of us Americans are quite capable of relentless Euro-bashing (and it could get quite nasty), but that would take all the civility out of this awesome Porschephile website. OK, man?



    Fight! Fight!

    I think when Fritz mentionned "they" I think he meant a Brit. In American films, the Brits are always the bad guys... Maybe WE should be offended. I don't think fritz was being entirely serious. Calm down!

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Quote:
    wtsnet said:
    In American films, the Brits are always the bad guys...



    Which films?

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    wtsnet said:
    In American films, the Brits are always the bad guys...



    Which films?


    Oh don't you start! I'm only teasing!

    There was a point in the 90's where, quite frequently, if there was a character with an English accent you could tell he was going to be bad! It used to be quite funny. Action flicks mainly. Can't think of one off the top of my head. Anyone?

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Quote:
    No, they tell you to dump in 93 and be done with it. It's safe and adequate for all conditions, although it's overkill at higher altitudes. Of course, since they don't say that in the manual, I suppose you think I'm just spewing CONJECTURE.



    I don't think you understand it, if I can use your long winded post, well part of it, by the same measure if you recommended that it was OK to use 87 Octane, then that would be a problem. If you came on the board and said, "well my mechanic of 40 years says that using high octane is just a plot by auto manufacturers and oil companies to make money" then that would be a problem. Because it goes counter to the manual. What you're advocating goes counter to the manual. Just like my examples of coolant replacement, oil changes, belt replacemnet. If we are to believe that the manual isn't correct, then why should we beleive the other things in it?

    Whatever, you win, you're way smarter than everyone here. We'll take your advice from now on. We should all burn our FACTORY MANUAL. Its just a bunch of nonsensical jibberish made up by those money grubbing marketing guys. A dealer mechanic's advice should be taken with a grain of salt. You'll take a mechanic's advice over Porsche's?

    BTW, why would Porsche ever write to drive off the cliff? That makes no sense.

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    I thought we learned our lesson, that burning books was a bad thing. Breaking Beatles records, now that's a different story.

    jb

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Quote:
    jboyko said:Breaking Beatles records, now that's a different story.


    Oi! I heard that!

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    I would never suggest you use 87 Octane.... unless you were sporting around 10,000 feet above sea level. Using that as an analogy to my stating the owner's manual break-in SUGGESTION is conservative, just doesn't work. But comparing apples to oranges to prunes to make an unrelated point has risen to an art form here.

    Quote:
    You'll take a mechanic's advice over Porsche's?



    You just don't get it. You refer to "Porsche" as if Dr. Ferdie is sitting in a white coat in the cloads annointing these publications with his holy hand as absolute gospel. You act as if every last employee at Porsche, from the president, to the guy who engineered the visor pivots, to the janitor, collaborated on that owner's manual, and that they all came to a singular specific decision and opinion on every last letter, word and phrase in there, as if the company were one all-knowing guy working out of a single-bay garage.

    Those who have not been close to the auto manufacturing industry tend to over-simplify its operations, and generalize. There's alot of misunderstanding in how much work goes into developing a car, and how much RED TAPE and corporate mandates based solely on cost-avoidance that engineers have to tip-toe through. It's mind-boggling, which is why I tend to approach all cars with a level of understanding if it's not exactly perfect. You've got to do the best you can within the budget that a guy who's never turned a wrench in accounting is holding you to. And if that guy says, "I want to double your recommended break-in period, just to make certain", well dammit, that's what happens, and that's what "Porsche" puts in the little book that goes to customers. Internally, there may be an entirely different and less "corporate-correct" opinion.

    Maybe my eye-rolling at putting so much faith in owner's manuals is due to my involvement in old cars, where an owner's manual is essentially worthless if you're going to actually do any WORK on the car. Factory service manuals and assembly manuals are the REAL "factory" manuals, where dumbing subjects down for consumer consumption does not exist. And where the real procedures for engine rebuilding, re-assembly and run-in and break-in DO exist, the technical instructions that the factory hands to its factory-trained techs.

    So I realize I've taken some hard shots at you Texas, and I'm not interested in arguing endlessly either. All I was trying to say is that break-in is subject to opinion, within Porsche, and outside. They just print one safe opinion in the booklet, that serves as consumer instruction. If you follow it, fine. You're following a corporate recommendation. It could be total overkill, and you would have zero idea. I have some idea, having built and broken in and torn down a hell of alot of motors. So I chose to follow the break-in more loosely with my car, not religiously. I was basically gentle the 1st 2,000, but I did see some higher revs here and there. I don't think it hurt anything, in fact, I think it'll work to my engine's benefit. I doubt "Porsche" would disagree with me if I spoke with their chief driveline development engineer over a beer, but he'll also say "we've GOT to make a clear procedure in the book for all those customers who don't have the background to make judgment calls on the subject". That's my GUESS, I KNOW. If my engine blows blue smoke and knocks at 60,000, you can go "ha ha, I told ya so". I severely doubt that'll ever happen, unless this "precision-built" engine I got in this $90K car is built no sturdier than a Chevy Chevette's 4-banger.

    Let's agree to disagree, and move on. If anything, let's meet at a drag-strip once the weather turns cooler, and see how our cars compare. Of course, that is, if you've got at least 2000.01 on the odometer. If you have 1997.01 when you show up, we'll drive your car back and forth in the pits until it's safe to rev over 4,000.

    (I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. I really am an a$$hole. TRUCE...)

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Quote:
    Al Pettee said:
    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Believing in conspiracy theories seems to be part of the "American way of life" these days.

    My personal (conspiracy) theory is that this is down to some stuff "they" are putting in the water in Lake Powell, which is then drunk by all locals in and tourists travelling thru the southwest, which turns their brains to mush.



    Hey Fritzo, bud,

    Your posts are alot more coherent sounding when you eschew any straying into politics, so can we avoid the parochial and paranoiac anti-American references. I don't think RC or any of the other guys who have assembled this forum wish this to become a state-based ad hominem diatribe amongst assorted nationalities. Many of us Americans are quite capable of relentless Euro-bashing (and it could get quite nasty), but that would take all the civility out of this awesome Porschephile website. OK, man?



    Gee Al, the last thing you were meant to do with that post of mine was to take it seriously!!

    The reference to conspiracy theories was meant to be a gently mocking observation on some earlier posts apparently suggesting that Porsche deliberately and maliciously posts draconian breaking-in "rules" in the drivers' manual just to spoil our enjoyment of our cars, and/or to somehow magically delay the total failure of engines with inherant production or material faults to some point after expiry of a 3 year (?) warranty, just by requiring us to take it easy for the first 2000 miles (maybe 2-3 months for most people).

    The fact that most of the complaints and doubts about the necessity and validity of breaking in cars appear to come from US rennteamers prompted me to refer to the "American way of life". However, this was not meant to be a "parochial, paranoid anti-American reference", it was just meant to be a joke, as I intended to indicate in the next sentence where I started to expound on my own personal "conspiracy theory" about the proverbial "THEY" (aliens, the guv'mint, whoever?? ) putting some crap into Lake Powell. I would have thought that that was so absurd that it could only be a joke.

    I think the posts in question came primarily from US rennteamers because - if I remember correctly - the break-in suggestions in the US manual are a little more narrowly framed than, for instance, here in Europe.

    I can assure you that I've been around the block enough times to know that all generalisations based on nationality, race, color, creed are just so much horsefeathers, and that when you get to know individuals, you find too many exceptions to the preconceived stereotypes to claim that "they prove the rule".
    Where Americans are concerned, I have had the pleasure and honor of being able to count Americans amongst my best and most durable friends. I try to get to the US on vacation as often as I can, as much for the way of life and relaxed attitude of the people as for the Florida sun, so you will realise that your interpretation of my post was not the one intended! Hell, I have even scalded my feet running across the hot sand to swim in Lake Powell! (Yeh, OK wiseguys, you want to say that that explains how my brain turned to mush! )

    If my brand of humor does not appeal, just ignore my posts. Whatever you do, don't take the "non-technical" ones seriously.

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    (I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. I really am an a$$hole. TRUCE...)



    Oh boy, 69bossnine, you are also have to explain yourself!

    Maybe we should put this thread to bed, until somebody brings up the subject of breaking in new cars again, probably as early as next week.

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    I'm a newbie here but...., Guys please stop arguing over this. This thread would be funny if it wasn't so tragic. Break-in the engine on your vehicle anyway you feel is correct (by the book or like you stole or anywhere in between)and don't worry about it; that is what I'm doing to my 997S which currently has 100 miles on the clock. I bet most people don't even know at what RPM they are half of the time and just change the gears based on their ear anyway so the whole discussion is pointless.

    Now let's talk about those mean Britts! Just kidding, I love Britts and their humour! Fritz, keep them coming!

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Fritz, all I was doing was admitting that I had been less-than-angelic in my postings. I'm not afraid to look in the mirror.

    I've spent many a day on Lake Powell as well, as we have a vacation home in Ouray, CO, a 1/2 day's drive from Hall's Crossing. I haven't been in a few years, but my dad tells me it's quickly becoming Puddle Powell, as all the states downstream fuddle around to figure out a water management plan. What a marvel that is. That's a lake that I would advise RENTING your boat!! LOL!!!! There's enough submerged rock to sink a million boats, and doing u-turns in tight canyons can get humorous!!

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Gee 69bossnine, I just got back from a visit to Lake Powell. Should I be concerned? BTW, I suspect that when an automobile owner's manual is written, there are more lawyers in the room than engineers.

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Quote:
    Fred 993C4S said:
    I'm a newbie here but...., Guys please stop arguing over this.



    Nah, everything's fine. It's the nature of email to be misunderstood. Just imaging sitting having a couple of beers with your pals. You might get testy but you don't really mean it. For example, if England and the US conducted all their diplomacy by email, we'd have nuked eachother years ago!

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    If only there was a way to share a beer over the internet.

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    ... I'm not afraid to look in the mirror. ...




    Just don't do it in the morning. Things can get pretty scary.

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Quote:
    Al Pettee said:

    FWIW, here's a summary of the official Audi owner's manual break-in advice for my S4 I bought last winter:

    "The engine needs to be run-in during the first 1,000 miles (1,500 km)."
    For the first 600 miles (1,000 kilometres):
    -Do not use full throttle.
    -Do not drive faster than 3/4 of the top speed marked on the speedometer (for USA, 170 mph so 3/4 of that = 127.5 mph).
    -Avoid high engine speeds ("high" not defined in manual, but the car is rev-limited at 7,000 rpm's so presumably high means over 6,000 rpm's).

    From 600 to 1,000 miles (1,000 to 1,500 kilometres):
    -Speeds can gradually be increased to the maximum permissible road or engine speed (of course Audi would never advise us to break the speed limit! ).

    After the break-in period:
    -Do not exceed maximum engine speed under any circumstances (I'm still trying to figure out how to accomplish this. ).




    Now this seems like it was written by an engineer. If the head engineer for the 997 handed me a break in procedure, I'd follow it to the letter. However, it doesn't take a ridiculous conspiracy theory or any large leap of logic to think that Porsche might want its customers to take it easy for a long time for reasons that aren't mechanical. 2000 miles is strangely long until you remember that Porsche has a history of a very high rate of single car accidents from as recent as the GT2 to as far back as the 930. It's good to not believe everything you read and to wonder who wrote something and what the intended audience is. These are basic reading comprehension skills. 69 just seemed to say "think about what you're doing," I don't personally think that thought is a bad thing. I'd wait the 2000 miles like Porsche says to, the only thing I'd do differently is in the last 500 miles I'd gradually change from babying it to how I'd drive it normally. This has to be better than going straight from babying the car to full throttle to redline at 2000 miles and hell if I'm going to do the gradual transition from 2000-2500 instead of 1500-2000 miles.

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Thans again everyone for all the information (some of it very spirited). I have been tring to get in contact with a friend of mine who is a widely regarded engine builder. He has build and tested thousands of engines and has been a consultant for engine design and testing on many projects world wide. He just got back into the country and I spoke with him about this subject. He notes that there is no controversy about engine break in. The facts are clear and no debate is necessary. Engine break in is absolutely necessary becasue nothing fits perfectly. There are high spots which need to be worked in and each part needs to find its grove. He notes that perphaps most importantly the tapits and cam are soft to start out with and need to "work harden" under varing loads but not high stress. He noted if proper break in is not followed you will know your service manager better than you would otherwise. He has done tests himself as well as read other reseach on "engine stretching" and there is no evidence that running the engine at higher rpms early in its life will increase its overall performance.

    His recommendations are to keep the rpms low over the first 1000 miles. Varing the rpms frequently with no sudden burts of power. He would change the oil at 1000 miles with petroleum based product recommended from the factory. The second 1000 miles you can increase the rpm range but not to get within 1000 miles of redline. Bursts of power at this time is ok but not all the time. He would then change the oil again at 2000 miles with a synthetic oil. He thinks the best brands are redline or moble.

    There you have it from the definitive source on this subject. Thanx again for all your imput. happy driving

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Cheers!

     
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