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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Leawood911:

    Elon has big plans for ownership. With self driving cars it will be easy to let the car keep working after you take it to work rather than pay for expensive parking. The owner get priority service and makes money owning the car. It’s a new world. 

    But you don't have to build cars to realize this business model (if it would make sense). Tesla is building cars. Like many others.... No new business model...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

     

    time for some fun

    Flatula Backfire= The Fart Car

    https://youtu.be/hejJ2DN_Qzw

     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Here is a good summary from ars about the state of Teslas self driving plans [1]. I'm with Leawood that autonomous driving will take a lot longer than we think (pretty much like fusion). And if eventually cars can drive on their own, they will be as smart as we are and we have to give them the right to vote indecision

    [1] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/03/teslas-self-driving-strategy-is-outdated-and-possibly-dangerous/


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    schmoell:

    Here is a good summary from ars about the state of Teslas self driving plans [1]. I'm with Leawood that autonomous driving will take a lot longer than we think (pretty much like fusion). And if eventually cars can drive on their own, they will be as smart as we are and we have to give them the right to vote indecision

    [1] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/03/teslas-self-driving-strategy-is-outdated-and-possibly-dangerous/

    Correction. I did not say it would take a long time at all. What I said was it would be code and computing power solving the problem not new cameras or radar. Those would just be minor inputs. 

    We are just a couple years away software wise. Computing power is always a bit behind. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    MKSGR:
    Leawood911:

    Elon has big plans for ownership. With self driving cars it will be easy to let the car keep working after you take it to work rather than pay for expensive parking. The owner get priority service and makes money owning the car. It’s a new world. 

    But you don't have to build cars to realize this business model (if it would make sense). Tesla is building cars. Like many others.... No new business model...

    I would argue that building a car that drives itself and can make its own payment for the owner is a pretty major change in business model. You just watched the car go from an expense to an asset. If you don’t think that changes the calculation on what car you buy think again. Will you buy a ‘dumb’ car that only costs you money or will you buy a worker car that pays for itself?  How many more buyers can you have if banks lend you money as if it’s an investment?  Even TESLA could underwrite the financing and default would be silly low compared to cars of today. I’ll stop there but you can hopefully see that nothing is the same. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    I think the number of autonomous cars needed to fill the demand for “gig transportation” is probably low, since one vehicle could probably fill 20 or so such tasks a day. If the number, type and complexity of tasks such a vehicle could complete increases, this would change things. If I could have my car pick up groceries, dry cleaning and get documents notarized then it becomes more useful to me.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Leawood911:
    MKSGR:
    Leawood911:

    Elon has big plans for ownership. With self driving cars it will be easy to let the car keep working after you take it to work rather than pay for expensive parking. The owner get priority service and makes money owning the car. It’s a new world. 

    But you don't have to build cars to realize this business model (if it would make sense). Tesla is building cars. Like many others.... No new business model...

    I would argue that building a car that drives itself and can make its own payment for the owner is a pretty major change in business model. You just watched the car go from an expense to an asset. If you don’t think that changes the calculation on what car you buy think again. Will you buy a ‘dumb’ car that only costs you money or will you buy a worker car that pays for itself?  How many more buyers can you have if banks lend you money as if it’s an investment?  Even TESLA could underwrite the financing and default would be silly low compared to cars of today. I’ll stop there but you can hopefully see that nothing is the same. 

    I see your point. A self driving car would be a different product (often with a different use pattern). However, based on my knowledge Tesla has no advantage (maybe even a disadvantage) to other OEMs in the development process of the required technologies. To me it seems highly unlikely Tesla will offer such self-driving product before other OEMs. Also, this might happen in x years (x probably being 10, 20?) Thus, the first challenge for Tesla will be to survive with regular EV cars... 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Leawood911:
    schmoell:

    Here is a good summary from ars about the state of Teslas self driving plans [1]. I'm with Leawood that autonomous driving will take a lot longer than we think (pretty much like fusion). And if eventually cars can drive on their own, they will be as smart as we are and we have to give them the right to vote indecision

    [1] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/03/teslas-self-driving-strategy-is-outdated-and-possibly-dangerous/

    Correction. I did not say it would take a long time at all. What I said was it would be code and computing power solving the problem not new cameras or radar. Those would just be minor inputs. 

    We are just a couple years away software wise. Computing power is always a bit behind. 

    sorry for misinterpreting your statement. I am not that optimistic, at least for level 4/5 autonomous driving. 

    1. To my knowledge we do not have software that can create a (more or less) complete 3D model of the cars environment in real time. "Complete" meaning that the model contains attributes like "this is a tree", "this is an old guy", "this is a standing car" etc., something that is very easy to do for humans.

    2. Driving a car requires predicting the near future, esp the possible and likely trajectories of objects in that model. Humans know, that trees don't move, that the car in front will likely switch lanes without turn signal, that not every short person is a kid, that kids may change direction suddenly etc.  This type of prediction requires a deep understanding about the physical world including the cultural differences.

    3. Driving is about handling corner cases and situations that have not been trained before, like heavy snow, changing road conditions, somthing crossing the road, car crash in front, etc. Everyone experiences these each day and we humans are usually fine. 

    4. Driving a car can not be easily formalized by a set of rules (unlike chess, image/speech recognition). To some extent ML can deal with this situation, but requires a complete set of training data, which I think is hard to get. And even if this was available we have to make sure, that the data does not contain a bias of some sort.

    5. ML is seen as the "holy grail" by a lot of people [1], but I tend to think about it as a modern form of alchemy [2], which still needs a tremendous amount of research.  

    6. If I look at the state of software development in general, I get the impression that there was not that much progress in the last 20 years. We still use languages and tools that are more than similar to what we had back then and the software industry has a hard time managing the increasing complexity. We can see that everyday when one of our apps crashes. Maybe what Andrey Karpathy wrote is a better approach [3].

    But I am German and pessimistic by definition.

    [1] https://medium.com/the-mission/rocket-ai-2016s-most-notorious-ai-launch-and-the-problem-with-ai-hype-d7908013f8c9
    [2] https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/05/ai-researchers-allege-machine-learning-alchemy
    [3] https://medium.com/@karpathy/software-2-0-a64152b37c35


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Is getting weirder every day.

     "Tesla reverses course, will leave most stores open and raise prices slightly

    After a chaotic week of decisions on the future of their retail sales model, Tesla seems to have come to a final decision about their Tesla stores.  The company just posted an update to their blog stating that they will seek a much less disruptive version of their change in strategy, instead closing about 10-30% of locations.

    As a result, the price drops associated with these store closures will be partially reversed.  Vehicle prices across the line will increase by a few percent, except for the newly-released $35,000 Model 3, which will remain at that same price.  These price increases will happen on March 18th, so current prices are valid for anyone who orders in the next week.

    Tesla is not changing their new 7 day/1,000 mile (whichever comes first) return policy, and will continue to sell cars online.  Stores will merely act as a physical portal to the online sales platform, where employees will help customers to make their orders on Tesla’s website.  This is how sales have always worked at Tesla in the past, so this is a continuation of business as usual.

    The company will still do test drives in physical locations for potential customers on request, and will carry some vehicles in inventory for customers who want to drive away in a car instead of waiting for an online order to be built.

    This announcement is the latest in a dizzying string of stories recently about Tesla’s changing sales strategy.  In the last week and a half, Tesla announced that they would close all stores, then slashed employee compensation seemingly in an attempt to get employees to quit without severance, then started closing stores almost immediately after the announcement (including relocating staff within regions), and then seemed to walk back the changes as they froze closures and layoffs at least until the end of the month.

    Tesla claimed this was all done to reduce vehicle pricing, and prices dropped a lot on much of the vehicle line.  The drops were so significant and sudden that some recent buyers protested.

    Along with this new announcement, Tesla also stated that they will be re-opening some recently-closed stores, but with smaller staffs.

    Electrek’s Take

    Were I a religious man, this is where I would exclaim “thank the Lord.”  The craziness seems to have subsided, at least for the moment.  Take a breath, Jamie.  Ahhhhh….

    This last week and a half has been a story of one mind-boggling decision after another, and those of us who have followed Tesla for a long time and generally approved of their strategy for sales, retail, engineering, etc., have struggled to find the reason in it.  A lot of possible explanations have been bandied about, but at the end of the day the whole process seemed quite irrational.

    Tesla may be different from other manufacturers in many ways, but a car is the second most expensive purchase most people will ever make, and people want to see and drive cars, and talk to a real person, before putting tens (or hundreds) of thousands of dollars on the line.  The 7 day return policy is nice, but nobody wants to arrange a $100,000 loan just to test drive a P100D.

    While Tesla stated that most sales occur online, the only stat it gave was for the Model 3, which was in its first 6 months of significant sales and was affected by many outside factors (tax credit expiry, lack of availability of test drive cars, etc.).  They didn’t mention the stats for more mature vehicle lines, the S and X, which are also more expensive and thus more likely that customers would want to have a more personal experience in buying the car.

    And Tesla’s statistics also ignored the number of people who had been to a store to either have questions answered or who had been introduced to the brand by a store.  Even if a customer orders online in the end, their buying decision may well have been influenced by Tesla’s retail presence.  According to a poll we ran, over half of our readers had been to a Tesla store as part of their buying experience.

    Not to mention that branding does have value, and Tesla having a physical presence in places where people spend time is important to increase mindshare.

    And finally, this is the right thing to do for Tesla’s sales employees, who have gone through quarter after quarter of huge sales pushes to try to get Teslas out the door, to minimize inventory, and who have managed to push the company to profitability for the last two quarters in a row, and get the Model 3 in the hands of as many buyers as possible before the tax credit started to expire.  There as no information given on the changes in compensation structure, though.

    So in the end, I think this is the right decision.  While I think Tesla should still be hiring, rather than firing, in sales and service, it makes sense for a company to occasionally re-evaluate underperforming locations.

    What wasn’t the right decision was going through a week of chaos to get to this point.  Had Tesla simply sat on the decision for a week or so, then this all could have been avoided and the company would look a lot more competent for it.  We heard that traffic in some stores dropped by a quarter the day after the announcement was made about going online-only, and that doesn’t help Tesla at all.  If you’re going to leave stores open, you shouldn’t tell customers that they’re closed.

    But hopefully this will be just a temporary slip-up, and Tesla will steady the ship a little bit from here on out.

    Now, to fix the rest of that last week-and-a-half of craziness, about that autopilot discount….

    Read Tesla’s full announcement below, then tell us what you think of it in the comments:


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    These erratic moves indicate that there is no strategy but just a desperate move to generate cash ASAP. Maybe Mr. Musk just didn't realise that first it needs additional cash if you want to lower the cost in a company ? Of course it depends on the jurisdiction but: "Tesla announced that they would close all stores, then slashed employee compensation seemingly in an attempt to get employees to quit without severance, then started closing stores almost immediately after the announcement (including relocating staff within regions), and then seemed to walk back the changes as they froze closures and layoffs at least until the end of the month." is not helping Cash-Flow short term if you have long term comittments (e.g. lease contracts for the stores) or labour laws not allowing to "slash employee compensation" overnight. 

    Fully agree on your points regarding level 4/5 kiss 


    --

    Daily Driver 991 Carrera T (June 2018), Canyon Carver 981 Spyder, Track Machine 997 GT3


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Maybe they realized it was too expensive to close all the stores at once? How do they get out of the leases? Indeed last week is coming out as chaotic...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    Maybe they realized it was too expensive to close all the stores at once? How do they get out of the leases?

    Maybe both, too expensive and not so enthusiastic customer feedback. In any case one would expect that in a well managed business somebody would have done the math and checked the feasibility before doing the announcement Smiley


    --

    Daily Driver 991 Carrera T (June 2018), Canyon Carver 981 Spyder, Track Machine 997 GT3


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Or you can say they are nimble enough to quickly walk back a decision that triggers an unexpected backlash... Two sides of the same coin.


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Porsche-Jeck:
    SciFrog:

    Maybe they realized it was too expensive to close all the stores at once? How do they get out of the leases?

    Maybe both, too expensive and not so enthusiastic customer feedback. In any case one would expect that in a well managed business somebody would have done the math and checked the feasibility before doing the announcement Smiley


    I fully agree that from an objective point of view it seems very strange... But seeing it from another perspective could be the exact opposite and a very smart step from a business perspective. I'm not saying that I'm right, but give it a thought.

    1. Tesla decrease the prices for their cars the other week. Especially for Model X/S. Result: increased demand on a car that start to show its age and a refresh is around the corner (6 months?)

    2. People feel that the X/S is now priced rather nice and many put down a deposit and order a car with quick delivery. SciFrog in here is a living example.

    3. Those on the fence, but haven't already ordered, now get the message that prices will go up with 3% in a week. This will result in even more orders coming in to Tesla world wide the coming week (than without the announced price increase of 3%)

    4. Tesla lower their stock of cars/parts/batteries and milk the final fruits from the X/S before the update is launched to market.

    5. The Model 3 buyer will act upon this change like this: Price decreased with a few percent a few weeks ago. With this some customers pulled the trigger and ordered one, because the expensive AWD version got a bit cheaper.

    6. The Model 3 buyer now got the message that all variants except the cheapest one (that doesn't exist outside of US yet and is very limited) will increase with 3% in a weeks time. Those Model 3 buyers on the fence get a bit stressed and now decide to buy the car 3% cheaper before the price increase.

    With this strategy the net effect for Tesla will be a lot more incoming orders. And looking historically into this, Tesla are genius in playing with quarterly "demand levers". This is just another one.

    When the demand for X/S (current gen) at those new prices is milked out then Tesla will make sure that the cars get delivered and in a few months from now there will be coming a facelift/next gen X/S with new interior and so on... when announced it will already be in production and deliveries to US customers will start short after the announcement. And so it will continue.... 

    They are also master at managing the Osbourne effect by not reveal stuff beforehand and just surprise the market by pulling something out of the hat very unexpected. Make sure that Elon has something in mind on the 14th on top of the Model Y.

    Some say that it is a very strange way to do business and manage a company. I think it's quite entertaining and more fun than the traditional and predictive way and blow some fresh air into the automotive industry Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:
     

    With this strategy the net effect for Tesla will be a lot more incoming orders. And looking historically into this, Tesla are genius in playing with quarterly "demand levers". This is just another one.


    They are also master at managing the Osbourne effect by not reveal stuff beforehand and just surprise the market by pulling something out of the hat very unexpected. Make sure that Elon has something in mind on the 14th on top of the Model Y.

    Smiley

    You have the ability to see a silver lining in even the strangest business decisions Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    MKSGR:
    lukestern:
     

    With this strategy the net effect for Tesla will be a lot more incoming orders. And looking historically into this, Tesla are genius in playing with quarterly "demand levers". This is just another one.


    They are also master at managing the Osbourne effect by not reveal stuff beforehand and just surprise the market by pulling something out of the hat very unexpected. Make sure that Elon has something in mind on the 14th on top of the Model Y.

    Smiley

    You have the ability to see a silver lining in even the strangest business decisions Smiley

    Yes, that's probably true, but I like to see things from the positive side Smiley

    There are lot's of strange things going on with Tesla, that I fully agree with, but at the same time it is at least in my book the most interesting company to follow in automotive today. Everything from all the other companies in the industry is very predictable and to some extent a bit boring in comparison. For the good and bad of course.

    Deviating from your own prediction, I think Tesla is here to stay in one form or the other. I mean, Porsche almost went bakrupt in the early 90's but they turned it around. So we'll see in 5-10 years from now how Tesla manage. Just now there is a bit too much of black and white predictions going on with Tesla and the truth is probably somewhere in between. Time will tell! 

    Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    It is silly to assume a multi billion dollar tech company is making random decisions. It is a safe bet that calculations we can even comprehend in terms of business analysis are being done. These are not amateurs by any stretch. I am amused by the speculation.  If you want to look at bad decisions see Ford, GM or even VW. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:

    There are lot's of strange things going on with Tesla, that I fully agree with, but at the same time it is at least in my book the most interesting company to follow in automotive today. Everything from all the other companies in the industry is very predictable and to some extent a bit boring in comparison. For the good and bad of course.

     

    Smiley

    They surely create a lot of surprising news Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Leawood911:

    It is silly to assume a multi billion dollar tech company is making random decisions. It is a safe bet that calculations we can even comprehend in terms of business analysis are being done. These are not amateurs by any stretch. I am amused by the speculation.  If you want to look at bad decisions see Ford, GM or even VW. 

    One should not praise decisions just because one cannot understand them. My experience is: most decisions that don't seem to make sense don't make sense. BTW, there is a lot of evidence that Tesla is run by chaos. The famous 420 US$ buyout case being the most prominent example, all SEC investigations and public drug consumptions of the CEO included Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    I was at Detroit last weekend. I went the visit the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn. My first time.

    First thing I noticed. Holy cow the Ford complex is BIIIIIIIIIIIIIG!!

    Ford buildings as far as the eyes can see. They even have their own hotel Innside the complex.

    I keep thinking, this company has a ton of resources and if they wanna to do something, not much can stop them. But why is no one buying Ford, other than their pickups. I spend a lot of time thinking that.I still don't quite have an answer.

    Why doesn't Ford make something cool and hip? Why can't Ford, with all those resources, make cars people actually want?

    And then why is Tesla, with only the foot print of an old factory factory in Fremont, smaller than the Ford testing and research building, worth more than Ford?

    Ford cranks out more than 2000 pickups a day at that plant alone, one every 50 seconds or so to be exact. And each and every one of those are profitable. Unlike Tesla.

    Something is wrong, on both side of the equation.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:

    I was at Detroit last weekend. I went the visit the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn. My first time.

    First thing I noticed. Holy cow the Ford complex is BIIIIIIIIIIIIIG!!

    Ford buildings as far as the eyes can see. They even have their own hotel Innside the complex.

    I keep thinking, this company has a ton of resources and if they wanna to do something, not much can stop them. But why is no one buying Ford, other than their pickups. I spend a lot of time thinking that.I still don't quite have an answer.

    Why doesn't Ford make something cool and hip? Why can't Ford, with all those resources, make cars people actually want?

    And then why is Tesla, with only the foot print of an old factory factory in Fremont, smaller than the Ford testing and research building, worth more than Ford?

    Ford cranks out more than 2000 pickups a day at that plant alone, one every 50 seconds or so to be exact. And each and every one of those are profitable. Unlike Tesla.

    Something is wrong, on both side of the equation.

     

    Simple answer: Ford is happy with the pickup business, why change things? Smiley

    It reminds me of Motorola and the Razr: Not sure if someone here remembers but when the first StarTec (Razr predecessor) came out, it was a sensational phone. It wasn't the most reliable phone (had it exchanged free of cost three times...a warranty perk of getting the StarTec) but it shook up the cell phone business, at least over here in Europe. Then, the first Razr came...basically a more sophisticated, refined and sleek looking StarTec. People loved it. So Motorola decided to start a mass production and to sell this thing in many different colors and versions. It was so successful that Motorola didn't actually care about anything else anymore. Until the day Apple and Samsung "hit" them...hard. Maybe even Nokia slightly before that. 

    Same with Ford: They have the tech and the knowledge, they could build wonderful things but they don't. Why? Too lazy...not ready to take a risk...maybe even lacking foresight and wisdom, I don't have a clue. Fact is: They are profitable now, they will be gone in 20 years. At max. If they continue this way.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:

    Something is wrong, on both side of the equation.

     

    Seemingly wrong, yes. Market cap of Tesla is in the same ballpark as Daimler or BMW. The industry is at the beginning of a huge change process. Tesla so far has been leading the change and therefore they are overvalued while the traditional companies are undervalued (Daimler and BMW stock is very cheap these days). The german "traditionalists" all together are investing 40 bn Euro into electro mobility (a number not far away from Tesla's market cap) - I don't know about Ford. From my experience a first mover premium only is sustainable if the first mover is very fast in gaining market share - we'll see.... I very well recall when in the eighties every analyst predicted the death of the german automotive industry (with the exception of the luxury niche) because the Japanese would completely own the mass segment...


    --

    Daily Driver 991 Carrera T (June 2018), Canyon Carver 981 Spyder, Track Machine 997 GT3


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    German car manufacturers will survive the change with a bloody nose (I do not envy their stockholders though, they are going to see some serious drop in business at some point before it recovers...maybe) but Tesla? I don't think so.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Porsche-Jeck:
    Whoopsy:

    Something is wrong, on both side of the equation.

     

    Seemingly wrong, yes. Market cap of Tesla is in the same ballpark as Daimler or BMW. The industry is at the beginning of a huge change process. Tesla so far has been leading the change and therefore they are overvalued while the traditional companies are undervalued (Daimler and BMW stock is very cheap these days). The german "traditionalists" all together are investing 40 bn Euro into electro mobility (a number not far away from Tesla's market cap) - I don't know about Ford. From my experience a first mover premium only is sustainable if the first mover is very fast in gaining market share - we'll see.... I very well recall when in the eighties every analyst predicted the death of the german automotive industry (with the exception of the luxury niche) because the Japanese would completely own the mass segment...

     

    Tesla do have a quasi-monopoly on the EV market.

    Sort of. The premium EV market. No one really have a non-cheap EV on the market to compete yet.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Yes, I agree - especially with the keyword "yet"  It will be an interesting race for sure kiss


    --

    Daily Driver 991 Carrera T (June 2018), Canyon Carver 981 Spyder, Track Machine 997 GT3


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Porsche-Jeck:

    Yes, I agree - especially with the keyword "yet"  It will be an interesting race for sure kiss

    Fully agree that it is an interesting race and it's a joy being a spectator Smiley

    But what to some extent is skewed in my opinion is the "Tesla vs. the rest" and wether Tesla will survive or not. I mean, the race is as much between BMW, Mercedes, Audi (to name a few) to compete with each others new products in different segments and how they can manage the transition and selling ICE vehicles in parallell with their new EVs. It's a thin line and the legacy and necessary investments in electrification will for sure not be smooth sailing.

    Just because BMW launch their new 3-series doesn't mean that they will "kill" Audi A4 and Merc C-class sales. In the same way just because BMW or Audi launch a new EV doesn't mean it will kill the Teslas. I'd say that Tesla actually formed a new segment of car buyers that are more interested in tech than in the actual car. In this segment there are probably not that many who jump the Tesla ship that easy and buy a BMW 3-series EV instead. Of course it work out the other way around as well where a die hard BMW fan have zero interest in a Tesla 3 and wait for a 3 series EV (if that person at all is interested in an EV).

    For Porsche it will be very interesting to see how things develop with the Taycan and how they sell that in parallell with the Panamera at a similar price point. Recent news show that demand looks very high and in it's niche this will be a fantastic car. Actually the car that interest me personally the most among all EV launches.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Does anyone know where the Taycan will fall in exterior and interior size vs the Model S and the 3?

    Maybe the Taycan is in the Model 3 category which would explain better some of the marketing positioning.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Dimensions for the concept car (not sure about the real thing):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_Mission_E

    Length 4,850 mm (190.9 in)
    Width 1,990 mm (78.3 in)
    Height 1,300 mm (51.2 in)

    Sounds more like Model S size rather than Model 3
    --

     

     

    Daily Driver 991 Carrera T (June 2018), Canyon Carver 981 Spyder, Track Machine 997 GT3

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    E-tron GT built on the same platform as the Taycan will probably give a good indication regarding size.

     

    Taycan will however have a sedan trunk opening and not a hatchback like Panamera and Model S


     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-budget-autonomous/trump-budget-proposes-ending-electric-vehicle-tax-credit-idUSKBN1QS27Q?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

    Taycan and other new EV might have just gone up $7,500...

    If you think about it, now that Tesla has sold too many EVs, why would the US government (under Trump) help German manufacturers vs Tesla and GM? wink How many $75k MSRP Taycan deposits again? 

    https://apple.news/AwRJMw_SLSWWqlJ6fhXHo9A

    Looks like this will not pass though...


     
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