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    Re: Aventador and SV

    Mclaren really shake the sport high end market. They we're criticize for having unemotional and clinical cars, the 570  some how was the answer for this criticism having a rear tail more prone for sliding than great handling abilities, still it manage to be faster and much lighter than competition at the same price cost! What an achievement Smiley


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    J.Seven

     

     


    Re: Aventador and SV

    Translation courtesy of GCF: 

    Christophe Tinseau

    Should have performed better than the regular Aventador, but it has been penalized by the very high temperature and humidity. Tires were not semi-slicks and they have greatly limited performances. They were dead after 6 laps.

    Some complaints about the AWD and the understeer it induces. Chassis is a little too stiff, with a negative impact on stability.

    It can go from understeer to oversteer depending on the torque split.

    Requires some time to get used to it.

    Engine is great, but transmission not so. Brutal and slow. Lost the brakes one time also. Weight is the ennemy.

    Other comments

    One of the most disturbing (in a positive way, don't know how to translate it in a more appropriate way) engine. Very strong power and nice noise. On test bench, did not reach the rated performance level.

    3" 0 to 100kph, 11" to 200, 26"4 to 300. Very good numbers... but same as regular Aventador. High temperature and humidity are the reason. Rear wing in low position to reduce drag.

     


    Re: Aventador and SV

    J.Seven:

    Mclaren really shake the sport high end market. They we're criticize for having unemotional and clinical cars, the 570  some how was the answer for this criticism having a rear tail more prone for sliding than great handling abilities, still it manage to be faster and much lighter than competition at the same price cost! What an achievement Smiley

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    570S faster? In straight line only? In that case and above 120km/h the answer is yes.

    On the track 570S is despite Corsa tires slower then 991.2 Turbo S for example.

    Also, after my initial impression with 570S I can agree with my friend who owns it that it is demanding car to drive first but, if you use at more then 7/10 on winding road it is more demanding and requires experienced driver with frim hand. R8 V10 Plus is much, much more friendly to its driver for example.

    I am still impressed with 570S. Just not that impressed to get one. It is after all down to our personal preferences. My findings is that 991.1 GT3 is in all departments better car then 570S, save it for straight line acceleration.


    Re: Aventador and SV

    570S faster? In straight line only? In that case and above 120km/h the answer is yes.

    On the track 570S is despite Corsa tires slower then 991.2 Turbo S for example.

    Also, after my initial impression with 570S I can agree with my friend who owns it that it is demanding car to drive first but, if you use at more then 7/10 on winding road it is more demanding and requires experienced driver with frim hand. R8 V10 Plus is much, much more friendly to its driver for example.

    I am still impressed with 570S. Just not that impressed to get one. It is after all down to our personal preferences. My findings is that 991.1 GT3 is in all departments better car then 570S, save it for straight line acceleration.

    Kreso, I agree 100%. McLaren still needs to refine their products to be fully competitive (570 but also 650s). Compared to the turbo s or the 488 it seems clear to me (based on comparing the cars) that McLaren is not there yet. The feel of all the components (the suspension setup and the engine/gearbox interaction being the biggest issue) is just not as refined as with Porsche and Ferrari. Lap times and brake distances are only the data points underpinning these driving impressions. The engine power is very good though Smiley


    Re: Aventador and SV

    Had a chat with a Porsche sales person yesterday. One who sells tons of cars every year (he is very successful).

    He told me that recently, he has lost lots of 911 Turbo S customers to McLaren. Some of these customers even come to the dealership and show him their new car and they are like small kids and telling him how amazing the McLaren feel and that it is a completely different drive feel. One even kept his Turbo S for rain and winters but the moment it is dry outside, he switches to his new McLaren.

    Btw: The 911 Turbo S customers he mentioned are or were all 991.1 or even 991.2 Turbo S customers, so he is pretty amazed how many customers he lost to McLaren.

    Porsche is definitely losing an opportunity here, a "960" cannot come fast enough. Another problem for Porsche is the new 570S. On paper, this car is less powerful than the current 991.2 Turbo S but in real life, it outruns it in the speed range above 180 kph. Most sold 570S are in a 190k EUR price range, while most Turbo S are 215k and more. McLaren also seems to offer interesting lease offers lately (at least over here in Germany), so there is a lot of pressure in the market right now.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Aventador and SV

    RC:

     

    He told me that recently, he has lost lots of 911 Turbo S customers to McLaren.

    Same could be true for Ferrari... Looking around at the Ferrari dealers it seems there are quite some turbo/turbo s cars from customers/visitors or cars that were traded in... 


    Re: Aventador and SV

    RC:

    Porsche is definitely losing an opportunity here, a "960" cannot come fast enough. Another problem for Porsche is the new 570S. On paper, this car is less powerful than the current 991.2 Turbo S but in real life, it outruns it in the speed range above 180 kph. Most sold 570S are in a 190k EUR price range, while most Turbo S are 215k and more. McLaren also seems to offer interesting lease offers lately (at least over here in Germany), so there is a lot of pressure in the market right now.

    The only question is: if you do not like a turbo s (for whatever reason) what reason could you have to prefer the 570/650s over the 488. Even if I try extremely hard I cannot find any reason at all. The 488 is just superior in any way Smiley


    Re: Aventador and SV

    The 488 is a Ferrari and this is actually the main problem. Too flashy, too...how to put it...Ferrari. 

    My jeweler got himself a 570S in some sort of dark grey, it looks amazing and not flashy at all.

    Also, (somewhat) difficult to get and Ferrari lease offers are probably the worst on the market. angry Believe it or not but even in this price range, customers are very cost oriented and are looking for good deals. Especially since these cars are often weekend toy cars.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Aventador and SV

    agree - Ferrari "hat es gschmaeckle" indecision


    Re: Aventador and SV

    RC:

    The 488 is a Ferrari and this is actually the main problem. Too flashy, too...how to put it...Ferrari. 

    My jeweler got himself a 570S in some sort of dark grey, it looks amazing and not flashy at all.

    Also, (somewhat) difficult to get and Ferrari lease offers are probably the worst on the market. angry Believe it or not but even in this price range, customers are very cost oriented and are looking for good deals. Especially since these cars are often weekend toy cars.

    I don't see Ferrari having any problems with the 488 sales. I don't buy the story how someone got X supercar instead of Y because it is less flashy. Ok, maybe it's true for some Porsche owners in some parts of Germany, but Germany is not the entire world.

    Flashiness is actually the main sales driver in the luxury segment. Why e person without good driving skills in a country where you could go to jail for speeding would a buy a true sports car? Because he likes the feeling of wearing special, flashy "clothes" and there's nothing bad about. People brag about their lunches and vacations on Instagram and then play it shy by "buying a dark McLaren instead of red Ferrari"...sorry, I don't buy that. 

    Porsche is making ridiculous money with the 911 range that Ferrari, Lambo and McLaren can only dream of. Then they are too busy with the SUV's. Their credentials as the best sports car builder are backed by the 918 and their GT (RS) range, so why bother with more engineering and production problems?

    Whether we like this situation or not is our problem. Porsche has never been in better market position in it's entire history - rich, diversified and with (yet) undamaged brand.


    Re: Aventador and SV

    Not only in Germany but also other parts of (Western) Europe. Envy is a major issue in many countries.

    My jeweler also drives a dark grey F12 because he is cautious...so yes, he didn't choose red because he is afraid of the car to be too flashy. We discussed that actually pretty often and there is also a reason why my R8 is not yellow or red. 

    I agree, Porsche is in a very good market position but not as good as you may think. The pressure from other manufacturers is higher than ever and it will grow. Not only in the sports car market but also in the SUV market.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Aventador and SV

    RC:

    I agree, Porsche is in a very good market position but not as good as you may think. 

    Did you find something worrying in their financial statements? I'd rather use them as a basis for analysis rather than anecdotes from sales people or other low-rank employees a.k.a. "sources".

    Competition?...When was the last time when a car manufacturer was not facing fierce competition...early 1900's maybe.


    Re: Aventador and SV

    Their financials are OK, this wasn't what I was referring to. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Aventador and SV

    I am loyal to Porsche. And Happy with the last to ones (GT4 and 991 GT3 RS).

    But they screwed me with the R allocation (that I disliked at the end so no big deal) and I suspect they will screw me again for next limited cars.

    Maybe the right time to consider a move and keep an eye on the competition. I tested drived the 570S, did not like it. Too comfy,  poor noise. I tested drive and track the 488. Whaooh. Impressed. Can't wait to see coming years with plenty of good options to explore, would they be GT2RS, 570 LT/P14 LT or 488 speciale. We are lucky to have options to explore. Not to mention the Lambo and Audi of the world.

    If I were McLaren or Lambo, to exist in from of Porsche and Ferrari, I would join the WEC party and win credit on big races. Porsche vs Toyota in LMP1 is pathetic. Ferrari/Porsche/Ford is slightly better, where is McLaren and Lambo?

     


    Re: Aventador and SV

    Inspirine:

    I am loyal to Porsche. And Happy with the last to ones (GT4 and 991 GT3 RS).

    But they screwed me with the R allocation (that I disliked at the end so no big deal) and I suspect they will screw me again for next limited cars.

    Are you sure Porsche screwed you and not your dealer? Smiley Smiley

    Maybe the right time to consider a move and keep an eye on the competition. I tested drived the 570S, did not like it. Too comfy,  poor noise. I tested drive and track the 488. Whaooh. Impressed. Can't wait to see coming years with plenty of good options to explore, would they be GT2RS, 570 LT/P14 LT or 488 speciale. We are lucky to have options to explore. Not to mention the Lambo and Audi of the world.

    Smiley

    If I were McLaren or Lambo, to exist in from of Porsche and Ferrari, I would join the WEC party and win credit on big races. Porsche vs Toyota in LMP1 is pathetic. Ferrari/Porsche/Ford is slightly better, where is McLaren and Lambo?

    McLaren still seems to benefit from the F1 involvement, which is understandable because after Ferrari, they are the most successful team in F1 history (I think...maybe I'm wrong).

    Lamborghini? Pathetic. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. Which is very sad. Audi is gone now, no more R8 racing (I think), so I don't have a clue what they are planning (or not). Lamborghini certainly has some work to do here. Personally, I don't care if a car manufacturer is racing or not but I think that customers expect a certain level of racing heritage and/or professionalism, so... Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Aventador and SV

    Are you sure Porsche screwed you and not your dealer? Smiley Smiley

    You are right, dealer screwed me not Porsche. Was first on the dealer list. But my car went 'to a friend of the owner of the dealership" according to the salesguy who was quite honest and disappointed. The guy was let go since by the way!


    Re: Aventador and SV

    RC:
     

    Lamborghini? Pathetic. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. Which is very sad. Audi is gone now, no more R8 racing (I think), so I don't have a clue what they are planning (or not). Lamborghini certainly has some work to do here. Personally, I don't care if a car manufacturer is racing or not but I think that customers expect a certain level of racing heritage and/or professionalism, so... Smiley

    Well i do recall Lambo running in GT3 races and winning a few, but I'm not sure which ones.


    Re: Aventador and SV

    If so, I forgot about it.  Not really impressive if you ask me.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Aventador and SV

    The only interesting Porsche in the lineups are the Macan GTS/turbo and the GT3/4. Everything else is boring or way overpriced. On the other hand McLaren is on a roll and treats their customer right after a rocky start with the 12C marketing, and Ferrari is still Ferrari (2 to 3 year waiting list for 488 still)... And AM is finally slowly moving out of 10 year old technology. Porsche will still sell lots of cars but the smart buyers are moving away from them as many here and I have done.


    Re: Aventador and SV

    SciFrog:

    The only interesting Porsche in the lineups are the Macan GTS/turbo and the GT3/4. Everything else is boring or way overpriced. On the other hand McLaren is on a roll and treats their customer right after a rocky start with the 12C marketing, and Ferrari is still Ferrari (2 to 3 year waiting list for 488 still)... And AM is finally slowly moving out of 10 year old technology. Porsche will still sell lots of cars but the smart buyers are moving away from them as many here and I have done.

    Not in Germany... Smiley

    Many German dealers also have used 488 GTB with low mileage (under 7k km) for around 235-250k EUR.

    Actually, from a performance/price point of view, the 488 is surprisingly "cheap" in Germany. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Aventador and SV

    SciFrog:

    Porsche will still sell lots of cars but the smart buyers are moving away from them as many here and I have done.

    That is a big risk indeed. The group of opinion leaders is the most relevant (although small). If the opinion leaders switch to other brands the masses will follow. There cannot be a "cool" brand if it is only bought be retired people and those who have no clue in what they buy. This is the same in all consumer goods products...


    Re: Aventador and SV

    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:

    Porsche will still sell lots of cars but the smart buyers are moving away from them as many here and I have done.

    That is a big risk indeed. The group of opinion leaders is the most relevant (although small). If the opinion leaders switch to other brands the masses will follow. There cannot be a "cool" brand if it is only bought be retired people and those who have no clue in what they buy. This is the same in all consumer goods products.

    Very good point. 


    Re: Aventador and SV

    Aventador facelift looks to be even more of a mess than their other versions. Aventador has gotten worse looking with every new version. Original is by far the cleanest and best design IMO. Why does Lamborghini need so many fucking vanes and diffusers and intakes and outlets? The giant hole capable of sucking in a 911 on the side isn't enough? Ferrari and McLaren seems more than able to compete performance-wise without a million aero features on every body panel. The Aventador looks like it belongs at Hot Import Nights.


    Re: Aventador and SV

    Agree, to much add on over the original design. Still, both set of wheels look good. 


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    J.Seven

     

     

     


    Re: Aventador and SV

    The Aventador since it was launched (2011) had 3 recalls with overheating issues.


    Re: Aventador and SV

    Why don't you just wait until you see the final product? The images you posted showed camouflaged cars.

    I love how the Aventador SV looks, so... Smiley

    The only complain I have is performance. With that kind of power, the Aventador should destroy the competition but it doesn't. Maybe that antique gearbox is to blame, don't have a clue but performance is the major improvement factor here.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Aventador and SV

    Aventador weighs like 8000 lbs. All the power goes towards moving that weight..


    Re: Aventador and SV

    noone1:

    Aventador weighs like 8000 lbs. All the power goes towards moving that weight..

    Weight is a problem as well but not a major one. I agree however that at this price tag, Lamborghini could do better (less weight). I still think that they need a new gearbox (Huracan sends it's greetings) and if they can shave off 100 kg, it would suffice.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Aventador and SV

    RC:

    Why don't you just wait until you see the final product? The images you posted showed camouflaged cars.

    I love how the Aventador SV looks, so... Smiley


    Agreed, we should wait until we see the final product. Smiley

    From these pics it seems to me as if the SV will have a retractactable rear spoiler, which would be great IMO. Others may think different and argue that a Lamborghini must have a big fixed wing, I would very much prefer a more subtle solution.


    --

    We're at the point where you can be the fastest or just sound like you're the fastest.



    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Aventador and SV

    Rossi:
    RC:

    Why don't you just wait until you see the final product? The images you posted showed camouflaged cars.

    I love how the Aventador SV looks, so... Smiley


    Agreed, we should wait until we see the final product. Smiley

    From these pics it seems to me as if the SV will have a retractactable rear spoiler, which would be great IMO. Others may think different and argue that a Lamborghini must have a big fixed wing, I would very much prefer a more subtle solution.

    Agree with waiting until the final version is released.  Camouflaged test models are seldom representative of the final product.  One is also waiting to see if this updated car will usher in new aerodynamic technologies for Lamborghini, as rumored on this car and the sportier Huracan.  


     
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