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    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Conny seems to forget one little detail: It is very cold in Bavaria right now, usually below -10° C (daytime) and the snow is very hard, which helps a lot with traction. I was surprised how fast I was able to go in the X5M on this snow and brake distance wasn't that bad either. We never had such low temperatures AND snow at the same time, so this was kind of a slightly new experience for me. 

    Thanks for the video, Conny...great job. kiss


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (April 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Whoopsy:
    REALZEUS:

    You seem to disagree with all racing drivers around the world though. Keep in mind that I am talking about fair weather conditions and good tarmac here.

     

    Why do you limit to ONLY fair weather AND good tarmac? So 1% of all the scenarios?

    How about we only limit the race to 0-60? Or a race on ice track? Or only desert rally? Or only how about we only compare slalom times in the rain? etc.

    IF rwd is really that superior over awd, then weather and road don't matter.

    You are just inviting more abuse from the others.

     

    I find your responses pretty amusing. The fact that you live in a snow ladden country does not mean anything for the rest of the world. As Tiff Needel put it, I wouldn't want to carry the extra weight and losses of an AWD system just in case the weather gets silly. Fact is that in Britain for example it snows for a few days a year. Same in Southern Europe. Stop judging by Bavaria or Canada and generalising for the whole world. Snow over here is 1%, not the other way around! 


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    REALZEUS:
    Whoopsy:
    REALZEUS:

    You seem to disagree with all racing drivers around the world though. Keep in mind that I am talking about fair weather conditions and good tarmac here.

     

    Why do you limit to ONLY fair weather AND good tarmac? So 1% of all the scenarios?

    How about we only limit the race to 0-60? Or a race on ice track? Or only desert rally? Or only how about we only compare slalom times in the rain? etc.

    IF rwd is really that superior over awd, then weather and road don't matter.

    You are just inviting more abuse from the others.

     

    I find your responses pretty amusing. The fact that you live in a snow ladden country does not mean anything for the rest of the world. As Tiff Needel put it, I wouldn't want to carry the extra weight and losses of an AWD system just in case the weather gets silly. Fact is that in Britain for example it snows for a few days a year. Same in Southern Europe. Stop judging by Bavaria or Canada and generalising for the whole world. Snow over here is 1%, not the other way around! 

    What about rain ? Doesn't it rain in the UK ? Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (April 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    All the time mate! You can drive a 2WD car in the rain quite easily though. A 4WD car would be perhaps quicker under these conditions (it depends on the bravery of the driver above anything else) but you don't really NEED 4WD in a rainy day. Very high performance cars are shod with summer tyres anyway. Oh, and winter tyres are not mandatory over here. wink


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Well, I can drive a bicycle in rain too but this doesn't imply that I want to. 

    AWD cars have superior traction, we can argue all day long.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (April 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Funny I should find this article at this time... I just put it here in case it interests anyone.

     

     

    BMW M5 (2012) long-term test review

    By the CAR road test team

    Long Term Tests

    07 February 2012 07:55

     

    Winter tyres on our BMW M5 - 7 February 2012

    Watch just about any news update on the travel chaos caused by snow in the UK and the chances are you’ll see a BMW sitting there spinning its rear tyres and slithering across the carriageway. But my M5 long-termer has been fitted with 19-inch Pirelli Sottozerowinter tyres, so I took it out last night and purposely went looking for trouble.

    There was still a few inches of snow where I’d parked on a very slight hill, and that’s been enough to completely strand a Jag XF on summer tyres in the past. However, the M5’s rear boots simply dug into the slippery stuff, and out we crunched. From there the roads were pretty clear, so I decided to head off down some country lanes, lanes that were still covered in heavy slush. Combined with heavy fog, this was actually pretty treacherous, and even though I’m familiar with these B-routes, the lack of reference points in the conditions meant the corners and junctions kept taking me by surprise.

    I was initially extremely cautious, worrying that I’d understeer into the undergrowth, but every time I turned the wheel, the front tyres bit as if the road was just wet. Traction was assured too, the rear tyres finding purchase despite the slush. Even under heavy acceleration or braking, the rubber still bit into the surface, with an absolute minimum of intervention from the traction control or ABS system.

    This was all too easy, so I returned home and headed into a nearby housing estate that was on a hill and hadn’t been touched by an ounce of grit. I drove all the way to the bottom of the hill, and selected reverse. Now, there’s nothing worse than being stuck in reverse in a powerful rear-drive car – in an auto too, with no clutch control – at the bottom of a snowy hill. You can probably guess what happened: I simply reversed out, turned myself around, and drove back up the hill.

    I’d previously seen a post on Twitter asking for people with 4x4s to help pull other motorists out of the snow and, to be honest, I felt like going along and lending a hand; surely I had better traction than an SUV on summer tyres.

    All of which gives me a dilemma: I have the chance to switch the winter tyres back to summer Michelins later this week. And I’m tempted, because the winters spoil the M5’s normally sharp handling, and because winters won’t help me when everyone else has already blocked the motorway I’m trying to use. But it’s also fair to say that the winters gave me a lot of confidence to go places over the weekend, especially with a young family aboard. What would you do, switch back to summers, or stick with the winters for another month?

    By Ben Barry

    http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/Search-Results/Long-term-tests/BMW-M5-2012-long-term-test-review/


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    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Yeah, I'm pretty sure the M5 is much better in snow than the less powerful 5 series models. 

    Do you know how many stuck 5 series BMWs I've seen so far in snow? 

    I suggest Ben Barry from Car Magazine comes down to Katschberg in his M5 in February, it will be fun, especially after a snowy night. Even if he would have enough traction (a friend in his 5 series was desperate), there wouldn't be enough ground clearance left to actually be able to move. 

    On wet streets, the DSC would come on all the time and if you turn it off, let me remind you of the words of Matthias Malmedie of german GRIP: "This car goes always sideways...". wink I'm pretty sure that this is what everybody wants on a public road.  


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (April 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    I am one person here who have driven this car in the wet, track and road. On the track, it just doesn't want to go straight and is terrible to drive in the wet. Perhaps it has worn out pilot super sport. On the road, it wasn't too bad. Easier to drive than C63 in the wet I felt. For me, in the country I live in, AWD is boring and RWD is fun if you know how to control a rear of the car. But I have driven in the snow many times and I can see why you Germans and Canadians want AWD!

    Btw, I will be driving this car at Phiilip Island race track on Friday, so I will tell you my impression on a fast track. I think it will be perfect for it unlike my experience of it on a wet Ascari track. 


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    WAY:

    Btw, I will be driving this car at Phiilip Island race track on Friday, so I will tell you my impression on a fast track. I think it will be perfect for it unlike my experience of it on a wet Ascari track. 

    Can't wait for your impression. Thanks. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (April 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    REALZEUS:

    I find your responses pretty amusing. The fact that you live in a snow ladden country does not mean anything for the rest of the world. As Tiff Needel put it, I wouldn't want to carry the extra weight and losses of an AWD system just in case the weather gets silly. Fact is that in Britain for example it snows for a few days a year. Same in Southern Europe. Stop judging by Bavaria or Canada and generalising for the whole world. Snow over here is 1%, not the other way around! 

     

    You know, there can be numerous things on the road that affect traction other than snow and ice. No road will have perfect surface.

    How about sand on the road for those who lived in/around desert?

    Then there could be oil on the road from someone with a leaky engine.

     

     


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    When was the last time anyone sliped on oil or sand? And what makes you think that lateral grip is enhanced by a 4WD system to the point that it will stop you sliding under these conditions? As RC points out, a 4WD system gives you a traction (i.e. longitudinal grip) advantage in challenging conditions. 


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    REALZEUS:

    When was the last time anyone sliped on oil or sand? And what makes you think that lateral grip is enhanced by a 4WD system to the point that it will stop you sliding under these conditions? As RC points out, a 4WD system gives you a traction (i.e. longitudinal grip) advantage in challenging conditions. 

    not only in challenging conditions! maybe on a 150 bhp car this is true. but on a car with 570 bhp, AWD gives you more traction in almost every scenario. The m5 can light the rear tires even in 3rd gear, so tell me how can it put all that torque down coming out of a hairpin in 2nd gear?

     


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    You are still speaking about traction here, not lateral grip. In such a case, the car's electronics take over since the driver does not have the brains to exercise caution with the throttle pedal! On that not, I have lit up the ASR system in my mates F430 in 5th gear and 120 mph on a motorway! Just a reminder of what beasts those supercars really are!


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    REALZEUS:

    You are still speaking about traction here, not lateral grip. In such a case, the car's electronics take over since the driver does not have the brains to exercise caution with the throttle pedal! On that not, I have lit up the ASR system in my mates F430 in 5th gear and 120 mph on a motorway! Just a reminder of what beasts those supercars really are!

    Of course i'm speaking about traction, how can an AWD system give you lateral grip?Smiley

    Bingo! The electonics take over, and limit the power

    So if the m5 had AWD it would come out of the hairpin much faster because the front tires could provide traction too, instead you end up with electronics limiting the power, or with a huge powerslide.

    So again, which system has more traction? even in dry weather Smiley


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    REALZEUS:

    When was the last time anyone sliped on oil or sand? And what makes you think that lateral grip is enhanced by a 4WD system to the point that it will stop you sliding under these conditions? As RC points out, a 4WD system gives you a traction (i.e. longitudinal grip) advantage in challenging conditions. 

     

    You still don't get it do you?

    Traction = grip

    On a car there is only 4 little rubber patch doing all the work.

    for rwd car only 2 little patch put the power down. the front patches are only for steering.

    for awd car 4 little patches putting power down, the front double duty on steering too.

    Imagine a rwd car doing a turn at speed, and one of the rear wheel encounter a slick surface and lost grip, then only 1 tiny little patch is doing the propulsion and the electronic traction control is going to cut power to prevent lost of control, car slows down, if it doesn't crash first.

    In a awd car there are 3 other patches doing the propulsion, power doesn't have to be cut that much to maintain traction, or just the front 2 patches alone can pull the car through the turn, pretty much no lost of speed.

     


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    WAY:

    Btw, I will be driving this car at Phiilip Island race track on Friday, so I will tell you my impression on a fast track. I think it will be perfect for it unlike my experience of it on a wet Ascari track. 

    I'm very interested on your report as well. I drove yesterday only approx. 250 km with the M5 and the weather conditions were anything but good. By now I say thanks for your insightful report in the Autoblog you posted above.Smiley

     


    --
    Kind regards, Conny 

    Porsche 997.2 Turbo S  *  BMW X5 M
     

    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Whoopsy:

    That's not from the mechanical traction grip. The car's computer helped a lot with the electronic traction control.

     

    You're right with your observation. Good eyes! The electronic was helpful by aprox. 50%. I've done a lot of more tests in the snow. If you're start in 2nd gear and with only soft throttle the ESP doesn't kick in.

    @Christian
    Of course you're right. Due to the cold the snow was very handy. But in the evening in downtown Munich was a mixture of mud, ice and snow on the streets. The traction was definitely better than I would have expected from an M5. But to avoid any misunderstandings: not the right car for KatchbergSmiley


    --
    Kind regards, Conny 

    Porsche 997.2 Turbo S  *  BMW X5 M
     

    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    I'm afraid even the Panamera Turbo S might not to be the right car for Katschberg  (I still can raise the chassis by 20mm up to 30 kph or so, which is kind of an advantage over the competition) but it may be our last time in Katschberg, we want to try something new next year, maybe Ischgl (we had a wonderful time there, Silvretta Arena is great).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (April 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Whoopsy:
    REALZEUS:

    When was the last time anyone sliped on oil or sand? And what makes you think that lateral grip is enhanced by a 4WD system to the point that it will stop you sliding under these conditions? As RC points out, a 4WD system gives you a traction (i.e. longitudinal grip) advantage in challenging conditions. 

     

    You still don't get it do you?

    Traction = grip

    On a car there is only 4 little rubber patch doing all the work.

    for rwd car only 2 little patch put the power down. the front patches are only for steering.

    for awd car 4 little patches putting power down, the front double duty on steering too.

    Imagine a rwd car doing a turn at speed, and one of the rear wheel encounter a slick surface and lost grip, then only 1 tiny little patch is doing the propulsion and the electronic traction control is going to cut power to prevent lost of control, car slows down, if it doesn't crash first.

    In a awd car there are 3 other patches doing the propulsion, power doesn't have to be cut that much to maintain traction, or just the front 2 patches alone can pull the car through the turn, pretty much no lost of speed.

     

    So let me get this straight. The rear wheel will suddenly hit a patch of ice that the fronts magically missed and the apportionment of torque to the fronts will save the day. Smiley A limited slip diff would do the same btw, only between the rears. The fact that 4WD cars are notoriously unpredictable seems to be lost in this discussion. When a 4WD car loses purchase, it is a wild guess whether it will understeer, oversteer or slide with all four. This is one of the reasons that many professional drivers (such as Rohrl) dislikes them. The other is weight and transmission losses. True, I too take my Landie when I go to the snows, but for normal weather driving I always prefer RWD and even FWD (the new Megane RS is a hoot to drive btw). 


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    You mean you don't know in a turn all 4 wheels each have a different trajectory through the turn? Cars with wheels don't run on railway tracks like trains do in case you haven't noticed so the rear don't follow the same 'track' as the front a la trains.

    They all cover a different section of a road and there is no magic involved if a rear contact patch sees something different than either front tires.

    Regarding your LSD comment, you do realize you are just repeating what I said? For LSD-ed rwd the end result is still one wheel powering the car?

    Professional drivers have no problem sliding awd cars at will, there is no guessing involve, it's all techniques and experiences, something you, me, and most amateurs don't have. The 'unpredictable' excuse is only for the inexperienced. Even for the notorious 997 Turbo awd system, Walter Rohrl has no problem wrestling the best time anyone can muster.

    About the only argument that's valid from you was the weight and transmission loss, the weight penalty is pretty minimal now for modern systems compared to those of a decade ago but it's still there. And with so much power coming from modern engines does people still care for the 'transmission loss' when their awd car can rocket off the line faster than any rwd cars? The extra performance is well worth the trade offs.


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Thank you very much for that BUT if a patch is small enough for it to miss the trajectory of the corresponding front wheel, the slip of the rear will be a few inches and it will regain grip immidiately.

    The weight penalty is still valid and is more than 50 kg, some times more than even 100.

    Power loss is evident at higher speeds. One of the reasons that the 997.2 TT has poor 0-300 km/h performance compared to, say, a 458 is this. It was also proven in R&T's 0-200 mph test, where the 1000 HP Viper defeated the 1000 Veyron just because it could accelerate quicker past 120 mph, even though the 4WD Veyron launched much better!


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    FERRARI RULES!!!


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    997 Turbo spots the 458 70hp, so even IF they weight the same the 458 would still has the advantage, by a mile.

    Think the 997 Turbo spots the 458 by about 100kg off the top of my head, so it weights 100kg more AND has 70hp less HP in addition to the awd 'handicap' but it's not that much slower, wonder why?

    Also, have you check on the drag coefficient numbers of the cars? At speed they plays a BIG role, more so than weight.


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Make that Turbo S, still 40 CV down but the end result remains the same. Even though the AWD car starts better, by the time they reach 100 though they are together. Overall drag numbers (the co-efficient doesn't really say anything as it is just a section of the car and you have to take into account other parametres as well) are very hard to come by. And please do not go on about how lighter the F is... that is one of the advantages of 2WD! Smiley


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Check the Mercedes SL63 before saying the 'weight advantage' of 2wd.


    Then there are the Lamborghini Gallardo, the 2wd Balboni version weights 3000lb, while the awd LP570-4 weights 2954lbs. So a awd car can be made without much weight penalty, if at all.


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    The fact that a car is a heavy weight on its own, distracts nothing from the argument that 4WD hardware does add weight, like it or not. The 550 Balboni is a lot lighter than the 560-4 which is similarly made. The 570-4 has all sorts of weight loss measures applied to it. Now, imagine the Balboni with all those light weight parts! I believe you didn't really mean what you said cause it is far from being a credible argument. 


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    If you are concerned with weight to this anal level, perhaps it's time to lose 10kg or so yourself. That way you could offset your claimed AWD weight penalty and drive that much faster than with a RWD,  in all conditions! Anyways back to topic..

    The M5 is a great machine and a worthy M5 successor. The RWD does play a big part in keeping the heritage alive.


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Chris Harris On Cars: "BMW M5 vs Nissan GT-R..."

    "Chris Harris reviews the new 2012 BMW M5 and Nissan GT-R, in the rain. Do these two cars belong together? Probably not - but it's perfect for YouTube search results, and thats why we're doing it. Watch as Chris reviews the two cars on the street and on the track..."

     
     
    ...thanks and all due credit to Chris Harris!

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    WAY:

    I am one person here who have driven this car in the wet, track and road. On the track, it just doesn't want to go straight and is terrible to drive in the wet. Perhaps it has worn out pilot super sport. On the road, it wasn't too bad. Easier to drive than C63 in the wet I felt. For me, in the country I live in, AWD is boring and RWD is fun if you know how to control a rear of the car. But I have driven in the snow many times and I can see why you Germans and Canadians want AWD!

    Btw, I will be driving this car at Phiilip Island race track on Friday, so I will tell you my impression on a fast track. I think it will be perfect for it unlike my experience of it on a wet Ascari track. 

    Any news on your impressions? Can't wait to hear your commentsSmiley
    Smiley


    --
    Kind regards, Conny 

    Porsche 997.2 Turbo S  *  BMW X5 M
     

    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Update on 2013 M5 Series :

    Whats new?

    CarbonCeramic brakes available with a price tag of 8.700 $ in the US.
    Don't know the price in Germany but 11.500 € I guess.

    The colour "Sakhir Orange" will be a standard metallic paint with no extra charge ( in the US)

    Bang & Olufsen Soundsystem with an extra of about 3.700$ in the US.

    Other changes are not visible.
    --
    Kind regards, Conny 

    Porsche 997.2 Turbo S  *  BMW X5 M
     

    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Thanx for posting the video.  kiss

    But it seemed sadly empty without a Porsche there to put them in their place. smiley

     


     
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