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    RMS replaced

    997 2S October 20, 2004 delivery. 10,500 miles driven in Seacoast NH. 10 qrts of oil used. Cayenne loaner. Replaced rear main engine seal and aux. shaft seal. Replaced master clutch operating cyl and aluminum seal ring. Replaced hood latch bolts and trans cable bracket as well. VIN # upon request. Car runs great.

    Re: RMS replaced

    This is disturbing that the RMS leak is still an issue on the 997 3.8 engine. Did the dealer have anything to say about it?

    Re: RMS replaced

    Hello rockhead,

    Yikes! You have our sympathy.

    One reason, of several I did not take a 3.8, was that the 3.6 was the older and potentially more reliable (any issues fixed?) design. I did not know then of the RMS etc issues with all versions of this 'new' water cooled engine of circa 2000.

    Thanks to EXCELLENCE, and editor Pete, I became aware of the 996/7 engine issues , and have bombarded the 2 above UK mags with letters/e-mails asking why they do not TALK about this issue. Now they are --- maybe PAG will hear!

    The latest edition of either 'GT-purely Porsche' or '911--Porsche World' has a letter from the English engine guru (I'm away from my mags at the office -- holidays, but I'm doing some space resaeach before the students come back) whose name is ---??---- does F1 work etc. You'l find it easily. It is on the tip of my tongue ----- Hart Hart HART!

    His explanation of the design issues, why the problems still occur, assembly and hardware, gave me the shivers. It was/is apparently part of the 'cost savings' approach. His company have desgned a new tool that allows the seals to be replaced more effectively (parallel to the crank etc), as unless this IS done well, the wretched thing will expire again.And during assembly, if the guy putting your engine together makes a little mistake with that B------ seal ----and your engine is doomed to fail ---

    I am really enjoying my new Porsche life (Carrera with PASM), the great driving car, the Mags, the enthusiasm, and this web. But I would sooner have paid another $5K and had the design improved for the 997. e.g. do the Turbo and GT3 engines have these issues --- I do NOT think so.

    Porsche --- you have let us down --- and it MAY come back to haunt you.

    I know if the new 'NSX' is anywhere close in price to that of the 2004 NSX, I will be going back to engine design etc that I can trust. Reliabilty of that NSX engine etc is extraordinary. Of course the car was more expensive, and you get what you pay for , to SOME degree. Athough for the SAME price as a Carrera, the Brits have been able to buy and NSX for the last couple of years!!

    PAG--- great pity! Fix it!

    Muffled Cheers


    KiwiCanuck

    Re: RMS replaced

    Quote:
    KiwiCanuck said:
    Hello rockhead,

    Yikes! You have our sympathy.

    One reason, of several I did not take a 3.8, was that the 3.6 was the older and potentially more reliable (any issues fixed?) design. I did not know then of the RMS etc issues with all versions of this 'new' water cooled engine of circa 2000.

    Thanks to EXCELLENCE, and editor Pete, I became aware of the 996/7 engine issues , and have bombarded the 2 above UK mags with letters/e-mails asking why they do not TALK about this issue. Now they are --- maybe PAG will hear!

    The latest edition of either 'GT-purely Porsche' or '911--Porsche World' has a letter from the English engine guru (I'm away from my mags at the office -- holidays, but I'm doing some space resaeach before the students come back) whose name is ---??---- does F1 work etc. You'l find it easily. It is on the tip of my tongue ----- Hart Hart HART!

    His explanation of the design issues, why the problems still occur, assembly and hardware, gave me the shivers. It was/is apparently part of the 'cost savings' approach. His company have desgned a new tool that allows the seals to be replaced more effectively (parallel to the crank etc), as unless this IS done well, the wretched thing will expire again.And during assembly, if the guy putting your engine together makes a little mistake with that B------ seal ----and your engine is doomed to fail ---

    I am really enjoying my new Porsche life (Carrera with PASM), the great driving car, the Mags, the enthusiasm, and this web. But I would sooner have paid another $5K and had the design improved for the 997. e.g. do the Turbo and GT3 engines have these issues --- I do NOT think so.

    Porsche --- you have let us down --- and it MAY come back to haunt you.

    I know if the new 'NSX' is anywhere close in price to that of the 2004 NSX, I will be going back to engine design etc that I can trust. Reliabilty of that NSX engine etc is extraordinary. Of course the car was more expensive, and you get what you pay for , to SOME degree. Athough for the SAME price as a Carrera, the Brits have been able to buy and NSX for the last couple of years!!

    PAG--- great pity! Fix it!

    Muffled Cheers


    KiwiCanuck


    The 996TT, GT2 and GT3 do not have the RMS issue because their blocks are based on the 964 air-cooled block, also used in the GT1 race car.

    Re: RMS replaced

    thats too many things for 10000 miles....wierd..

    Re: RMS replaced

    Glad it happend under warranty. These things do happen. I had an 01 BMW X5 and an 03 Lexus GX470. Both of them had to have seals replaced on the engine. Both leaked oil and had under 5,000 miles on them. Cars are still made by man so nothing is perfect.

    Re: RMS replaced

    So, if the RMS failed after the warranty expires, we have to pay for the repairs out of our own pocket?

    Re: RMS replaced

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    So, if the RMS failed after the warranty expires, we have to pay for the repairs out of our own pocket?



    Depends on the country you are in, its up to the country's importer. PCNA ususally picks up the bill for RMS replacement even if out of warranty as far as I have heard. Same for Germany or New Zealand for example. But in Spain (Porsche Iberica) for example, its comming out of your pocket in most cases and there is only 2 year warranty in Europe.

    Re: RMS replaced

    Do you think this 2yr warranty should be made to 3yrs or does anyone think that this has been a well thought out ploy by P to encourage the consumer to part ex up after every 2yrs ,, could it be ? ..

    throt...

    Re: RMS replaced

    It's cold logic. To change the mfgr process to individually machine castings so as to make ALL seals bulletproof would cost a large amt of money and increase car price.

    To just install seals as carefully as possible, in castings which are within tolerance and replace the ones that leak is cheaper.

    IMO, the fact that the warrenty is very forgiving on this issue shows Porsche isn't completely happy with this cold logic.

    Re: RMS replaced

    Quote:
    throt said:
    Do you think this 2yr warranty should be made to 3yrs or does anyone think that this has been a well thought out ploy by P to encourage the consumer to part ex up after every 2yrs ,, could it be ? ..

    throt...



    Two years is the minimum mandated by EU law, so thats what they offer... the bare minimum. In tipical Porsche fashion with options and extras, if you want more than minimum, you pay for it.
    And on top of it, the unfixed inherent RMS engine flaw goes unfixed after 7 years and a model change and hoovers over the owners' shoulders to stimulate them even further to dish out extra $ for the extended warranty

    In the US, consumers are more demanding, and the market is tougher in terms of warranties so PCNA offers a decent 4 year warranty.

    Re: RMS replaced

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    In the US, consumers are more demanding, and the market is tougher in terms of warranties so PCNA offers a decent 4 year warranty.



    Wow ,, thats a new one on me .

    Good on the US consumer for setting that trend..

    Thanks Carlos..

    throt..

    Re: RMS replaced

    Hi' MMD,
    Well it all depends on how much $/car it would cost PAG to fix it.

    Many of us do not want engines pulled out, with the attendent fuss/dealer-ship 'damage'-scratches/errors in the re-installation/ uncertainty on reliability/lower resale as the 'word' spreads/ loss of 911 prestige.

    What we would like to know is this: what % of 997/987 are having RMS or similar occuring now? Is it better than in the last few years of the 996 (3.6L)?

    On the cold logic. It seems that PAG AGREES with you, and just fixes them -----

    KiwiCanuck

    Re: RMS replaced

    .....another example of manufacturer response, BMW pays for all service the first 4 years, the only thing the buyer pays for are tires, and of course gasoline!

    Re: RMS replaced

    Quote:
    KiwiCanuck said:
    Hi' MMD,
    Well it all depends on how much $/car it would cost PAG to fix it.

    Many of us do not want engines pulled out, with the attendent fuss/dealer-ship 'damage'-scratches/errors in the re-installation/ uncertainty on reliability/lower resale as the 'word' spreads/ loss of 911 prestige.

    What we would like to know is this: what % of 997/987 are having RMS or similar occuring now? Is it better than in the last few years of the 996 (3.6L)?

    On the cold logic. It seems that PAG AGREES with you, and just fixes them -----

    KiwiCanuck


    Definitely a situation which suucks. I think i suucks because the car is never going to be as well assembled as when it leaves the factory in Germany. As soon as your local Porsche-Trained mechanic tears into your virgin-assembled car, chances are it's gonna be f-ed up. Oh, well, that's the way it goes; you go back to them and they tighten the leaky hose he forgot to test, then you notice a washer or backing plate is missing, you suffer more nconvenience and they fix that; and so on... , Eventually the car is "fine."


    I wound have NO problems buying a used Porsche that had it's RMS replaced. Would be a relief to know THAT hurdle was crossed. I WOULD give it a very careful inspection to make sure the leak was/is completely fixed. They CAN be completely fixed. In teh USA at least, if after three tries to replace seal, and it doesn't work, they put in a new engine.

    As far as percentages of cars with the RMS replacement? Nobody except Porsche knows.

    Just think of it as part of the "fun" owning this car.


    Re: RMS replaced

    Quote:
    KiwiCanuck said:

    Well it all depends on how much $/car it would cost PAG to fix it.




    I don't think it's that simple. I'm just guessing here but, if they machined each engine they'd be wasting money since a very large percentage do not require machining.

    I don't understand the problem perfectly so I'm just speculating that tolerances are so close they can't easily tell which ones will leak until they leak.

    If they machined each crank case perfectly concentrically with the crankshaft they would be almost certain they couldn't leak.

    Costs ALOT to do this, which also doesn't make sense because most of them will be fine w/o the machining.

    If they reduced the diameter of the seal (it's HUGE!) they'd have a much easier time and far fewer leaks. I dunno why it has to be so big, but obviously it's not an easy thing to change on these flat six engines.

    I'm not an expert; this is stuff I heard and read.

    Re: RMS replaced

    Quote:
    KiwiCanuck said:

    Many of us do not want engines pulled out, with the attendent fuss/dealer-ship 'damage'-scratches/errors in the re-installation/ uncertainty on reliability/lower resale as the 'word' spreads/ loss of 911 prestige.
    KiwiCanuck



    This is the very key point , what about the inconvenience of it all , takes the shine off ownership and scratches , well I would kick up if this happened . On taking the P in I would get them to check and sign a perfect condition clarification form drafted by me . Seriously , throts being serious for once and while we are on the subject just the other week I took my Landcruiser in for a service , I made the service manager do a walk around to prove and show the immaculate condition of it because there employees could not give a t*ss , its a pity but its got to be done plus then they know where they stand ..

    throt..

    Re: RMS replaced

    Does anyone know what the going rates at US dealers for an RMS replacement that's out of warranty on the 996? And how much would yours have been if it wasn't under warrant on your 997. thx.

    Re: RMS replaced

    Quote:
    mateoche said:
    Does anyone know what the going rates at US dealers for an RMS replacement that's out of warranty on the 996? And how much would yours have been if it wasn't under warrant on your 997. thx.



    I remember someone saying us$2000.

    Re: RMS replaced

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Quote:
    mateoche said:
    Does anyone know what the going rates at US dealers for an RMS replacement that's out of warranty on the 996? And how much would yours have been if it wasn't under warrant on your 997. thx.



    I remember someone saying us$2000.



    I'll check when I get home. I had mine done a few months ago and remember seeing a price figure on the documentation. Unless someone beats me to it.

    Re: RMS replaced

    The service manager at IRA porsche stated that the tolerance for putting the seal on squarely is 3%. The replacement seal is not the same as the origanal build from the factory. Word of caution: there was no oil leaking onto my garage floor just a lot of refilling of the oil to the correct level.

    Re: RMS replaced

    Quote:
    mateoche said:
    Does anyone know what the going rates at US dealers for an RMS replacement that's out of warranty on the 996? And how much would yours have been if it wasn't under warrant on your 997. thx.



    $800-1000 in the case of the 996, and I don't expect the 997 to be any different since its basically the same car, same engine... the problem is if the concentricity of the crankshaft bore is out tolerance, then you need a new engine which I believe is around 6k in the carrera plus labour.

    Re: RMS replaced

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    if the concentricity of the crankshaft bore is out tolerance, then you need a new engine which I believe is around 6k in the carrera plus labour.


    Really, only $6k? That's a bargain for the engine when you consider how much other parts of the car cost! X51 Powerkit costs more than double the cost of a new motor for just 26hp?

    I know a GT3 motor costs around $40k...

    Re: RMS replaced

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    if the concentricity of the crankshaft bore is out tolerance, then you need a new engine which I believe is around 6k in the carrera plus labour.


    Really, only $6k? That's a bargain for the engine when you consider how much other parts of the car cost! X51 Powerkit costs more than double the cost of a new motor for just 26hp? I know a GT3 motor costs around $40k...



    So, just how much is a "replacement" 997S X51 motor? $6250.00?

    Someone should check about this



    Re: RMS replaced

    My "bet" is a new 997 engine is between us$10-15 thousand. No way they're fewer than $10K.

    Re: RMS replaced

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Really, only $6k? That's a bargain for the engine when you consider how much other parts of the car cost! X51 Powerkit costs more than double the cost of a new motor for just 26hp?

    I know a GT3 motor costs around $40k...



    Sorry its aprox 9,000 dollars for a replacement engine (plus labor) in the 996 carrera. Its really a bargain yes, becuase this carrera/boxtsre/cayman motor is very cheap to make. The GT3's in the other hand...

    Re: RMS replaced

    Someone at my dealership quoted me $25,000.00 for a new engine plus installation (997S 3.8). Not that I needed one but I was just curious. Sounds a bit steep to me but its possible. Heck a thicker leather steering wheel is over $1000.00 so this price quote can't be too far off.

    Re: RMS replaced

    I know of people being quoted 9k for the 996 carrera engine replacement + 2k labor and the rest. They probably bumped the price up for no good reason in the 997-3.8l or they were exagerating a bit

    Re: RMS replaced

    Renntech offers a search for US Retail prices on "spare parts".

    Part No 997 100 997 00 replacement engine:

    Result: US$27'294.81!


    Re: RMS replaced

    Quote:
    Matt C said:
    Renntech offers a search for US Retail prices on "spare parts".

    Part No 997 100 997 00 replacement engine:

    Result: US$27'294.81!




    Is that with exchanging the old engine??

     
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