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    0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Well I beat the cr*p out of my car today. Trying to get that ideal 0-60 time.

    Sorry gents: it seems impossible because I shift too slowly.

    I'm no spaz, had perf cars with manuals all my life and I can certainly whip that gear lever from second to third and third to fourth in the blink of an eye but first to second seems like an eternity.

    Why does first to second seem so slow? Is it I, or is it the car?

    Secondly: Seems to me that PDK is a GREAT idea to get the advertised acceleration out of the car for most guys who are not semi-pros or track rats.

    Is that true, would 0-60 be faster with PDK?

    If true that's _gotta_ be the number one reason, to get an already great thing (PDK), over a manual.

    0-60 times are hard to duplicate with a manual? It's certainly not good for the drivetrain!


    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    What are you timing yourself with? I'll have a go tomorrow and time myself with the performance box and see if I can get close to the advertised figures. Mind you I still have a questionable gearbox issue!!

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    ResB said:
    What are you timing yourself with? I'll have a go tomorrow and time myself with the performance box and see if I can get close to the advertised figures. Mind you I still have a questionable gearbox issue!!



    Nooooo! Might ruin your day! Not worth it!

    No timer since I'm alone. The shifting just seems to take a loooong time. I'm "afraid" to _jamb_ it into second. I try to get at least a tiny bit of "agreement" between synchros/gears before the shift is complete.

    All in all, I came away suspicious about actual 0-60 times with a manual and thought PDK would be better. Yeah..., stupid I know..., being fixated on this because the cars aren't for drag racing.

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Quote:
    ResB said:
    What are you timing yourself with? I'll have a go tomorrow and time myself with the performance box and see if I can get close to the advertised figures. Mind you I still have a questionable gearbox issue!!



    Nooooo! Might ruin your day! Not worth it!




    Don't worry, if it goes, Porsche will have no choice but to change it as I've said there is an issue with it for over 6 months now.

    In theory though, PDK should be a lot quicker.

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    PDK should definitely be quicker. If it ends up being a really crappy first-time gearbox (which I doubt) then the worst case is itll equal to the MT.

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Well I beat the cr*p out of my car today. Trying to get that ideal 0-60 time.



    * shakes head *

    When are you going to a proper track?
    Heck, an autocross?

    You bought a Porsche, not a Mustang.

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    PDK hands down.

    Everytime I drive my Lotus, my thought is if the car has the gearbox like the GT-R, it would be perfect. Manual is too slow.

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Not certain what is so difficult. I drove many old air-cooled 911s with the old 915 tranny and it was not even that slow. The new 997 1-2nd is very fast. I am able to shift it very quickly and very consistently. The 997 certainly can be a drag race car. It is quicker off the line than most any other car out there and to not consider it quick off the line or to even think about an automatic (even PDK) seems not neccesary. You lose so much control once you give up that clutch.
    Once the PDK comes out I would be happy to test my manual against it. I may not beat it but it will be close and I will be having much more fun.

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    No way a human can come off gas depress clutch and move a lever than come off clutch and re-apply gas quicker than a mechanical blip of gears with no change in throttle.

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    Leawood911 said:
    Not certain what is so difficult. [edited] The new 997 1-2nd is very fast. I am able to shift it very quickly and very consistently.





    Sounds good to me. I will have to try again. Maybe when trying it yesterday I drank too much coffee which caused the world to slow down.

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    I'd have to ride with you MMD to determine whether any of your shifts, much less 1-2, are worthy of praise for their speed...

    But the fact that you're even pondering the 1-2 shift, seeking "agreement", tells me that you must be horrifically slow at this. The slowness is AMPLIFIED on the 1-2, due to the amount of weight transfer due to the tall ratio in 1st-gear... Your slow shifting is the most noticeable in low gears, where the nose is pitching up, then falling flat as you bumble into 2nd, then yanking up again. With each successive gear, the violence of your slow shifts diminishes...

    No, I'm not trying to pile on you at all... I'm just writing as a fairly experienced manual-shift drag-racer with many years of NHRA track time...

    Shifting fast is all one motion in concert. It's like a quartet of musicians all coming together to hit ONE TIGHT BEAT.

    There's no series of steps, no 1. depress clutch, 2. disengage from 1st, 3. engage into 2nd carefully, 4. release clutch, 5. depress accelerator... Nope, if you approach shifting in steps, or even pause to ponder engagement, hell... I'm already at the timing-shack picking up my slip while you're still out on the track getting laughed at as the "rich guy who can't drive" by the local beer-swilling Chevy-small-block-loving spectators.. Fast shifting, once you've got it, comes in one fluid concerted motion of two feet and one hand, all working concurrently, the elapsed time of the shift limited by the most time-consuming motion, the clutch travel with your left leg.

    I've just got the standard shifter in my S, but swinging through the gears cleanly and rapidly is a breeze, limited only by how fast I can punch the clutch... In short, just sit in your car while it's parked, and see how fast you can press and release your clutch pedal.... That's how fast every shift can be, and should be, CLEAN, with the super gearbox Porsche supplies us with.

    The disengagement of the existing gear is happening concurrent with the engagement of the clutch, i.e. as the clutch is headed down, your right arm is already moving out of gear... Timed correctly, you're nestled into the next gear just as the clutch is swinging back up toward engagement... That's the slow-motion account. In real-time, my shifts sound basically like an automatic-tranny car going down the track, no wasted time, each gear engaged as the clutch is quickly tapped, usually so fast that my right foot only needs a perfectly timed "tap" off-and-on to stay off the rev-limiter...

    Lightning fast manual shifts, where the nose of the car stays up and the car maintains transfer, is achievable in old 60's muscle cars with archaic Borg Warner and Ford Toploader 4-speeds and enormously long-swing and heavy 11.5" clutches...

    In comparison, doing "snick-snick-snick" quick shifts in my Porsche is like driving a toy car, it makes driving fast immensely easy.

    If you've got the speed and coordination in you, if you're a natural athlete, you just need practice... Just practice in something else, not your 997TT... Practice in something low on power, it'll never break, won't have enough power to wear-out parts, and if you can perfect lightning-fast and clean shifts in a pedestrian grocery-getter, you'll be a MASTER once you hop back into your Porsche and apply your newfound talent to the faster/quicker hardware...

    But if it doesn't come natural, that's where PDK comes in handy... It's fast shifting for those who'd be hobbled otherwise. More consistent and technologically advanced? Yep... But let's not get into that "which is better" argument, different strokes for different folks...

    Me, I find my fun and satisfaction in mastering the old manual...

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    racerx said:
    No way a human can come off gas depress clutch and move a lever than come off clutch and re-apply gas quicker than a mechanical blip of gears with no change in throttle.



    I totally agree, but it's dang close - plus the human can control the gas and the clutch to perfection giving you the choice to be super smooth or extra aggressive between gears. I bet the first true PDK versions will each clutches like crazy as many drivers will be used to the abuse that automatics can take.
    Again, I agree that the PDK can not be beat in terms of shift time. Will that translate into quicker acceleration? Maybe. Certainly it will be more consistent. Again, for me that's not as much fun. If it helps drivers actually use their turn signals I am all for it. My fear is it will mean more minutes on the cell phone in one ear and a big gulp in one the other hand while driving.

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    racerx said:
    No way a human can come off gas depress clutch and move a lever than come off clutch and re-apply gas quicker than a mechanical blip of gears with no change in throttle.



    Again, you're approach shifting as sequential "steps", like you're back in Driver's Ed with a government-issue Plymouth with 3-on-the-tree....

    Properly done, a manual shift is just a "blip" as well...

    Some of the better technologies certainly have narrowed-down the shift times to an extent impossible to match with human mechanics... But the differences are slight, and on the dragstrip would maybe account for .05-.10 second through 3 or 4 gear changes...

    Trust me, the moment you start talking about shifting in terms of "depress clutch, then move lever, then....", you may as well be plowing dirt on a John Deere....

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:


    In comparison, doing "snick-snick-snick" quick shifts in my Porsche is like driving a toy car, it makes driving fast immensely easy.

    Me, I find my fun and satisfaction in mastering the old manual...



    EXACTLY! Shifting as you describe it is exactly how it is done - one motion - as fast as you can jab the clutch and release it. The joy of shifting! (by the way, in a really underpowered car like a Civic you can practice just lifting the throttle a little and finding the next gear without the clutch at all.) Next will come the launch control arguments...
    Way to go 69bossnine!
    Drive right!

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    Leawood911 said:
    Way to go 69bossnine!
    Drive right!



    Word up!!! I'm doing my part to carry the torch of man-made shifting!

    Seriously, just as you eluded to in vintage Porsches, it would do EVERYBODY some good to gain experience in older cars... Just trying to navigate busy traffic in a totally UNSYNCHRONIZED pre-1930's gearbox forces you to either get proficient, or get run over...

    I've been spending more time in my '67 Pontiac GTO 4-speed than any other car lately... And I can rip speed-shifts in that thing where you'd swear it was an automatic listening from the side of the road...

    Jumping in the 997, it's like taking the controls of a video game, everything's so light, short, fast and accommodating. Seat time in more archaic machines is the best practice on earth for mastering technique...

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Bossman, here is where the internet keyboard puts the conversation at a disadvantage. I typed out what actually happens in motions, you typed a LOT about the intracasies and how quick it should be.

    Let's all agree that were all athletic and coordinated. Funny though, i never meet Porsche owners in person who come any bit close to being natural athletes. I can shift and drive as well as anyone. I never needed instruction on either a car or motorcycle, just did it, no grinding.

    Yet I can't match my tranny, i have the 4 speed ZF in mine, that shifts in a blink of an eye with the gas floored the whole time, no lift, and programmed to shift at HP peak and hit TQ paek in the next gear.

    The only thing that may account for SUPPOSED faster times for some cars manual vs. auto is the shorter gearing of the manual. It's not a perfect world, a good auto will beat a manual.

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    I think the problem with shifting for most is that folks tend to overthink how shifting should be done. It's pretty straightforward and as long as you manage to separate the steps into a few simple steps then a perfectly matched shift is possible. I know because I've managed every time.

    Mr. 69bossnine, thanks for taking the time to write. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading your postings here.

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    RacerX,

    Traditional 3 or 4-speed automatics have considerably more parasitic drag (or driveline power-loss, however you wish to term it) than manuals... Combine that with less advantageous effective-ratios throughout the stretch you're measuring, and you get a disadvantage that overshadows the quicker shifting...

    I used to race sportsman class in a stock '93 Corvette 6-speed against another fellow in a stock '93 Corvette automatic... His tranny shifted quickly, but the ultimate result was that he ran (on average) 4-tenths and 4-5 mph slower than my 6-speed in the 1/4 mile... This wasn't just one grudge-match, this is us with tech-inspected cars running multiple rounds in the same conditions on the same tracks, weekend after weekend..

    However, as technology marches forward, and torque converters are replaced by mechanized clutches, and additional ratios (speeds) are introduced, the scales have been tilted....

    But if you've got an old 4-speed auto pushing fluid.... You'll be sadly disappointed up against a decently-shifted manual, regardless of how consistent and quick your shifts happen... It won't overcome the other handicaps...

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Correct me if I am wrong but even with Tiptronic which most agree is archaic, the 997TT time is faster than the manual. These test are done by Porsche drivers and I believe it is fair to assume they know had to use a manual.

    Also, for sport track times, a PDK type tranny will also be faster. Other than the rather dubious claim that it is more fun to drive a manual there is no reason to own one given the superiority of PDK in performance, convenience and driveability.

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Right, I've had a quick go, but unfortunately both attempts were in the wet and with PSM on. I know I can do a lot better.

    1st run I got 5.55 seconds and the 2nd I got 5.11 seconds, even though the timer showed dead on 5 seconds.

    Looking at one of the graphs and timing the gear change from 1st to second I lose about 2 x 10ths of a second and about 0.5mph. This was established between the car slowing and then increasing again so it's likely that the gear change took slightly longer but not too significant to make that much of a difference (for this test anyway). The loss of speed surprised me though. I need to look at this again just to check the math.

    I know we have seen them performance figures all before but I'll do a few 30 - 70 and 50 - 80mph runs just for fun. Yes, it'll be when it's safe to do so.

    Graphs...


    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    The reason the 997TT 0 - 60 times are faster with a tiptronic than with a manual is because you can apply the brake and throttle at the same time when launching. This increases the engine speed and puts the engine in the optimal rpm for turbo boost. You can't do that with a manual.

    read about it here:
    http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=4052


    When shifting out of any gear, for maximum shift times you should be applying pressure on the shifter just before you start to depress the clutch pedal. So when shifting from 1 - 2, you are already pulling on the shifter, but not quite enough to pull it out of gear. The pressure begins to come off the gear when the clutch is only about 20 - 25% 'out' causing it to pop out of first. The continuous pressure allows the shifter to hit second just as your foot hits the floor. Try it, you'll like.

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Correct me if I am wrong but even with Tiptronic which most agree is archaic, the 997TT time is faster than the manual. These test are done by Porsche drivers and I believe it is fair to assume they know had to use a manual.

    Also, for sport track times, a PDK type tranny will also be faster. Other than the rather dubious claim that it is more fun to drive a manual there is no reason to own one given the superiority of PDK in performance, convenience and driveability.



    This is retreading "old" ground... Factory performance figures... I love those... In real life, at a real drag strip, I've never seen a factory time that I couldn't obliterate by at least 3-4 tenths...

    With an auto, there's really no factor for driving-style used for the purposes of benchmarking, you just slam down the gas pedal and go (you know, the "superior" and "convenient" way... )

    But with manual, they've got to worry about publishing times that the average customer can expect to realize with their own car... So the factory driver may be a whiz, but he's not there to wring every last shred out of the car, he's there to benchmark a performance stat that will be "indicative" of what the car's reasonably capable of in anybody's hands.

    And in most cases, "anybody" is not terribly proficient at rowing a drag race.

    I invite ANYBODY on this forum with a tiptronic Carrera S to challenge me to a drag race at any 1/4 mile track... I'll race title-for-title, and won't even sweat a bead... But then I'd have to pay taxes on your car, and would have this tiptronic Porsche I never wanted....

    Can we please not confuse a car's potential with a driver's potential??

    It seems every time we debate this, it always degrades to "well, I'm a GREAT stick-shift driver (cough cough although I lose 2-tenths every time the clutch goes in cough cough) but I can't POSSIBLY make the car go faster than an auto, therefore autos are faster..."

    Lastly, they have the Tip turbo programmed to maintain full boost through shifts, something very very difficult to accomplish manually... So in any boosted car, yes, there are yet some more additional "tech" solutions that help tip the scales... If I'm not mistaken, the Tip Turbo posts slower trap-speeds, which indicates the flip-side of the coin, faster full-boost shifts are at the expense of less h.p. to the wheels...

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    RacerX,

    Traditional 3 or 4-speed automatics have considerably more parasitic drag (or driveline power-loss, however you wish to term it) than manuals... Combine that with less advantageous effective-ratios throughout the stretch you're measuring, and you get a disadvantage that overshadows the quicker shifting...

    I used to race sportsman class in a stock '93 Corvette 6-speed against another fellow in a stock '93 Corvette automatic... His tranny shifted quickly, but the ultimate result was that he ran (on average) 4-tenths and 4-5 mph slower than my 6-speed in the 1/4 mile... This wasn't just one grudge-match, this is us with tech-inspected cars running multiple rounds in the same conditions on the same tracks, weekend after weekend..

    However, as technology marches forward, and torque converters are replaced by mechanized clutches, and additional ratios (speeds) are introduced, the scales have been tilted....

    But if you've got an old 4-speed auto pushing fluid.... You'll be sadly disappointed up against a decently-shifted manual, regardless of how consistent and quick your shifts happen... It won't overcome the other handicaps...



    I agree with your points regarding tourque converter/ fluid and the less advantageous effective ratio's, i think i also mentioned that.

    As you yourself said they negate the "quicker shifting". That would explain you beating your friend. The original contention here is whether machine driven shifting is quicker than human driven shifting.

    Give me an auto with the same numbers of gears and same ratio's as a manual and same power plant and the auto will win as long as the auto driver feathers it right on take off, unless he has electronic aids.

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    I'd have to ride with you MMD to determine whether any of your shifts, much less 1-2, are worthy of praise for their speed...

    But the fact that you're even pondering the 1-2 shift, seeking "agreement", tells me that you must be horrifically slow at this. The slowness is AMPLIFIED on the 1-2, due to the amount of weight transfer due to the tall ratio in 1st-gear... Your slow shifting is the most noticeable in low gears, where the nose is pitching up, then falling flat as you bumble into 2nd, then yanking up again. With each successive gear, the violence of your slow shifts diminishes...

    No, I'm not trying to pile on you at all... I'm just writing as a fairly experienced manual-shift drag-racer with many years of NHRA track time...

    Shifting fast is all one motion in concert. It's like a quartet of musicians all coming together to hit ONE TIGHT BEAT.

    There's no series of steps, no 1. depress clutch, 2. disengage from 1st, 3. engage into 2nd carefully, 4. release clutch, 5. depress accelerator... Nope, if you approach shifting in steps, or even pause to ponder engagement, hell... I'm already at the timing-shack picking up my slip while you're still out on the track getting laughed at as the "rich guy who can't drive" by the local beer-swilling Chevy-small-block-loving spectators.. Fast shifting, once you've got it, comes in one fluid concerted motion of two feet and one hand, all working concurrently, the elapsed time of the shift limited by the most time-consuming motion, the clutch travel with your left leg.

    I've just got the standard shifter in my S, but swinging through the gears cleanly and rapidly is a breeze, limited only by how fast I can punch the clutch... In short, just sit in your car while it's parked, and see how fast you can press and release your clutch pedal.... That's how fast every shift can be, and should be, CLEAN, with the super gearbox Porsche supplies us with.

    The disengagement of the existing gear is happening concurrent with the engagement of the clutch, i.e. as the clutch is headed down, your right arm is already moving out of gear... Timed correctly, you're nestled into the next gear just as the clutch is swinging back up toward engagement... That's the slow-motion account. In real-time, my shifts sound basically like an automatic-tranny car going down the track, no wasted time, each gear engaged as the clutch is quickly tapped, usually so fast that my right foot only needs a perfectly timed "tap" off-and-on to stay off the rev-limiter...

    Lightning fast manual shifts, where the nose of the car stays up and the car maintains transfer, is achievable in old 60's muscle cars with archaic Borg Warner and Ford Toploader 4-speeds and enormously long-swing and heavy 11.5" clutches...

    In comparison, doing "snick-snick-snick" quick shifts in my Porsche is like driving a toy car, it makes driving fast immensely easy.

    If you've got the speed and coordination in you, if you're a natural athlete, you just need practice... Just practice in something else, not your 997TT... Practice in something low on power, it'll never break, won't have enough power to wear-out parts, and if you can perfect lightning-fast and clean shifts in a pedestrian grocery-getter, you'll be a MASTER once you hop back into your Porsche and apply your newfound talent to the faster/quicker hardware...

    But if it doesn't come natural, that's where PDK comes in handy... It's fast shifting for those who'd be hobbled otherwise. More consistent and technologically advanced? Yep... But let's not get into that "which is better" argument, different strokes for different folks...

    Me, I find my fun and satisfaction in mastering the old manual...



    That's what I've always done. Didn't think most performance car owners really did it differently .

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    racerx said: I agree with your points regarding tourque converter/ fluid and the less advantageous effective ratio's, i think i also mentioned that.

    As you yourself said they negate the "quicker shifting". That would explain you beating your friend. The original contention here is whether machine driven shifting is quicker than human driven shifting.

    Give me an auto with the same numbers of gears and same ratio's as a manual and same power plant and the auto will win as long as the auto driver feathers it right on take off, unless he has electronic aids.



    Well, keep in mind that the manual-shift car has the luxury of choosing his launch RPM right in the meat of the torque-curve, and there's little-to-zero traction concern in a rear-engine 997... So for the launch, non-turbo, the advantage I believe goes decidedly to the manual...

    Fast launches with an automatic tranny requires LOTS of low-end torque (or a performance-built "stall-speed" converter that allows you to build more revs at a standstill.).. Something you can "spool-up" with a turbo, but something that a naturally-aspirated 911 is extremely weak in... Let's face it, our cars are absolute weenies below 2-grand... And I don't think your converter is going to allow you to brake-stand it up to where it'll hold-check with the 3800 rpm monster-launch the 6-speed is doing next to you..

    I'll give up that boosted cars mate well with autos. You can manipulate the boost to gain certain advantages that you wouldn't have n/a...

    Like anything, there's no cut and dry answer.... Every car has it's optimal "setup" to get the most from it...

    My original point was simply, you can shift damn-close to automatic speed with practice and coordination... Once you achieve that, the mechanical advantages of less-drag and more available ratios will reward you with amazing performance...

    Or, you can just slide it into "D" and let your daughter drive, or play with paddles and keep telling yourself that you're "superior"

    With race cars, the checkered flag is all that matters...

    With street cars, the smile on your face is all that matters... Having full control of the entire machine (that includes shifting and power-modulation through the clutch) is what makes me smile... If allowing the car to do it for you so you can keep both hands on the wheel is what makes you smile, or simply having the "latest gizmos" makes you smile, or any combo thereof, well knock your designer socks off then!!

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    If I'm not mistaken, the Tip Turbo posts slower trap-speeds, which indicates the flip-side of the coin, faster full-boost shifts are at the expense of less h.p. to the wheels...



    Car & Driver's 1/4 mile test posted a higher trap speed with the tiptronic, and the 6 speed was also slower to 160.

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    And I don't think your converter is going to allow you to brake-stand it up to where it'll hold-check with the 3800 rpm monster-launch the 6-speed is doing next to you..




    It will, it's not something I'd want to do often but the tiptronic will indeed brake torque up to around the same RPM...

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    You obviously possess skills most drivers do not have (certainly not me). I suppose with your shifting skills against a poseur driving a Tip, you will prevail. Take a factory driver, you would have to be absolute perfect to stay with him.

    Around a track, it is not in dispute that a PDK is better, faster and as much fun if not more. Tell me, if you could do a time around a track let say the Ring in 7.50 driving a Tip and 7.55 driving a manual, which would you prefer and be more fun? Think about it. If the fun is in the shifting but losing time why not buy a Miata and be done with it. You can shift your brains out while losing.

    To me buying a performance car is about achieving it maximum PERFORMANCE as the manufacturer intended. For an example, Ferrari is on record stating the 430 was designed to perform best using an F1 tranny. I will wager that when Porsche introduces PDK it will no be a contest between the manual equipped car and PDK. I will also wager that the majority of Porsche's sold will be equipped with PDK about 3 years after PDK introduction.

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    This is a no-win discussion. On one side the manual aficionados will never give up and on the other side the auto drivers the same.

    69bossnine's technique is on the verge of "power shifting," that is, shifting without using the clutch. He will say he is always perfect and the dance of clutching/declutching gas-off/gas-on and synchro meshing is all perfect, but nothing like that is always perfect and the cost is added wear.

    I do not drive (or shift) for maximum performance, so I do not care. On my C4 with normal shifting I did a few 0-60 in a little over 5s (say 5.5s) and I thought it was fine.

    I have driven manuals all my life, and still have a car with a manual. I think though that the current autos are very good - MB and PAG has good autos and so does Corvette. I drive a C6 auto and like it a lot, both in full auto mode or in manual/paddle-shift mode.

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    swajames said:
    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    If I'm not mistaken, the Tip Turbo posts slower trap-speeds, which indicates the flip-side of the coin, faster full-boost shifts are at the expense of less h.p. to the wheels...



    Car & Driver's 1/4 mile test posted a higher trap speed with the tiptronic, and the 6 speed was also slower to 160.



    Take away the new 997TT launch control and a manual would smoke it! For example look at the 996 TT Tip. My 997 S w/6 speed is much quicker to 60!

    My choice will alway be to go with a manual. Mark my words - the PDK will eat clutches because drivers will abuse them like conventional automatics - which they are not. Why do you think the PDK has taken so long to deliver?

     
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