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    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Leawood911:

    Awesome time for a four door sedan. Shows what electric power can do. 
    And that M3 is on the tail of the Enzo. Very next car... (thought mention of it was illegal in the Taycan forum. Maybe okay if it’s behind?)

     

    Hmm, 2.5 seconds on a 80 second lap, an eternity.


    --

     

     


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    funniest when old times with "old" tire-technology is used to compare new cars with latest Tires just to make people believe they have such a amazing car....


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    BjoernB:

    funniest when old times with "old" tire-technology is used to compare new cars with latest Tires just to make people believe they have such a amazing car....

    These eco tires on the Taycan aren't the stickiest option imv... 


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Leawood911:

    I would enjoy a comparison to the model 3. Next generation Tech and a much better handling car in the same size category.  The model s comparison will be interesting when the next model S comes out.  Unless you enjoy comparing to 9 year old tech and relishing victory in categories not likely to encounter on the street.  

    Smiley I thought the latest Tesla S Performance has the same Dual Motor setup? Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Leawood911:

    Awesome time for a four door sedan. Shows what electric power can do. 
    And that M3 is on the tail of the Enzo. Very next car... (thought mention of it was illegal in the Taycan forum. Maybe okay if it’s behind?)

    2 seconds on the Stig lap are like 20 seconds on the Nordschleife. Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    RC:
    Leawood911:

    Awesome time for a four door sedan. Shows what electric power can do. 
    And that M3 is on the tail of the Enzo. Very next car... (thought mention of it was illegal in the Taycan forum. Maybe okay if it’s behind?)

    2 seconds on the Stig lap are like 20 seconds on the Nordschleife. Smiley Smiley

    Top Gear lap times...

    Lap Time Vehicle Series/Episode

    01:12.7 Ferrari 488 Pista - Series 27, Episode 01
    01:12.8 Dallara Stradale - Series 27, Episode 03
    01:13.4 Porsche 991 GT2 RS - Series 26, Episode 03
    01:13.7 McLaren 675LT - Series 23, Episode 02
    01:13.8 Pagani Huayra - Series 19, Episode 01
    01:14.3 BAC Mono - Series 20, Episode 02
    01:15.1 Ariel Atom V8 500 - Series 16, Episode 01
    01:15.1 Dodge Viper ACR - Series 23, Episode 01
    01:15.1 McLaren 600LT - Series 27, Episode 01
    01:15.7 Audi R8 V10 Plus - Series 23, Episode 03
    01:15.8 Lamborghini Huracán LP610-4 - Series 22, Episode 01
    01:16.0 Mercedes-AMG GT R - Series 24, Episode 06
    01:16.1 Porsche 991 GT3 RS - Series 24, Episode 06
    01:16.2 McLaren MP4-12C - Series 17, Episode 03
    01:16.5 Lamborghini Aventador LP700-4 - Series 17, Episode 06
    01:16.8 Bugatti Veyron Super Sport - Series 15, Episode 05
    01:17.1 Gumpert Apollo S - Series 11, Episode 06
    01:17.3 Ascari A10 - Series 10, Episode 09
    01:17.5 Mercedes-AMG GTS - Series 22, Episode 04
    01:17.6 Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Series 28, Episode 03
    ‎01:17.6 Koenigsegg CCX (with Top Gear Wing) Series 08, Episode 04
    01:17.6 Honda NSX - Series 23, Episode 06
    ‎01:17.7 Noble M600 - Series 14, Episode 05
    01:17.8 Nissan GT-R 2012 - Series 17, Episode 04
    01:17.8 Pagani Zonda Roadster F Clubsport - Series 12, Episode 04
    01:17.9 Caterham Seven Superlight R500 - Series 12, Episode 06
    01:18.3 Bugatti Veyron 16.4 - Series 12, Episode 04
    01:18.4 Pagani Zonda F - Series 07, Episode 04
    01:18.9 Maserati MC12 - Series 06, Episode 02
    01:19.0 Lamborghini Murciélago LP670-4 SuperVeloce - Series 13, Episode 02
    01:19.0 Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG Black Series - Series 20, Episode 04
    01:19.0 Ferrari Enzo - Series 05, Episode 02
    01:19.1 Ferrari 458 Italia - Series 15, Episode 06
    01:19.5 Lamborghini Gallardo LP560-4 - Series 12, Episode 01
    01:19.5 Porsche 997 GT2 - Series 12, Episode 01
    01:19.5 Ariel Atom 2 300 - Series 05, Episode 09
    01:19.6 Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG Roadster - Series 18, Episode 02
    01:19.7 Aston Martin V8 Vantage - Series 26, Episode 05
    01:19.7 Nissan GT-R - Series 11, Episode 05
    01:19.7 Ferrari 430 Scuderia - Series 11, Episode 01
    01:19.8 Chevrolet Corvette C7 Stingray - Series 22, Episode 05
    01:19.8 Ferrari 599 GTO - Series 16, Episode 02
    01:19.8 Lamborghini Murciélago LP640 - Series 09, Episode 05
    01:19.8 Porsche Carrera GT - Series 04, Episode 04
    01:20.4 Chevrolet Corvette C6 ZR1 - Series 14, Episode 02
    01:20.4 Koenigsegg CCX - Series 08, Episode 01
    01:20.7 Ascari KZ1 - Series 07, Episode 01
    01:20.9 Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren - Series 04, Episode 02
    01:21.0 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Black - Series Series 18, Episode 05
    01:21.2 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano - Series 10, Episode 03
    01:21.4 Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio - Series 24, Episode 02
    01:21.5 Aston Martin DB11 - Series 24, Episode 03
    01:21.5 Tesla Model 3 AWD Performance - Series 27, Episode 02

    Smiley


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    I’ll be waiting for the times for the new BMW M3.  I’m also sure that the Tesla cult is spinning the yarn that the Model 3 tested didn’t rely on the latest super-dooper s/w upgrade. 


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Whoopsy:
    Leawood911:

    Awesome time for a four door sedan. Shows what electric power can do. 
    And that M3 is on the tail of the Enzo. Very next car... (thought mention of it was illegal in the Taycan forum. Maybe okay if it’s behind?)

     

    Hmm, 2.5 seconds on a 80 second lap, an eternity.

    I always forget to include the sarcasm flag. Seriously guys do I have to do that each time?  Yes, as an avid racing fan I am 100% percent aware that it is an eternity. Lol. 


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    RC:
    Leawood911:

    I would enjoy a comparison to the model 3. Next generation Tech and a much better handling car in the same size category.  The model s comparison will be interesting when the next model S comes out.  Unless you enjoy comparing to 9 year old tech and relishing victory in categories not likely to encounter on the street.  

    Smiley I thought the latest Tesla S Performance has the same Dual Motor setup? Smiley

    Not the same types of motors front and rear. Different battery tech as well.  Just the label dual motor is similar but the implementation is not, nor is the tech. 


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Drag Times tests the Porsche Taycan Turbo S on a poorly prepped drag strip.  Even with wheel spin the quarter mile time was roughly 10.5 seconds and approaching 130 mph.  This car is a beast.  https://youtu.be/y0XlXAn23Y8


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlI1_P8V5dA

     


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Leawood911:
    RC:
    Leawood911:

    I would enjoy a comparison to the model 3. Next generation Tech and a much better handling car in the same size category.  The model s comparison will be interesting when the next model S comes out.  Unless you enjoy comparing to 9 year old tech and relishing victory in categories not likely to encounter on the street.  

    Smiley I thought the latest Tesla S Performance has the same Dual Motor setup? Smiley

    Not the same types of motors front and rear. Different battery tech as well.  Just the label dual motor is similar but the implementation is not, nor is the tech. 

    Any details on this? Thanks.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Even this Tesla troglodyte can answer your questions. 
     

    When Tesla introduced the Raven upgrade for the Model S/X, it replaced the front electric machine with the switched permanent magnetic one found in the Model 3.  The rear machine still uses the induction motor originally introduced with the Model S in 2012.  Tesla’s namesake invented the induction motor which uses AC current to develop both the stator and the rotator magnetic fields.  The permanent magnet motor needs to only generate one magnetic field so it is more efficient in energy consumption when compared to the induction machine.  Tesla also introduced a more efficient inverter design with the Model 3’s PM motor.   The induction motor uses an older inverter design Tesla licenses from AC Propulsion. 
     

    The Model 3 also relies on a larger lithium ion cell, the 2170, versus the smaller, more commoditized 18650.  Tesla also improved the cell cooling elements as well as improved the cell chemistry.  Fewer cells reduce battery pack costs; however, the 2170 cell is longer than the 18650 cells used in the Model S/X and it can’t be retrofitted because the battery pack would be too thick for that platform.  The change in cell chemistry is why the Model 3 is less fire prone and less susceptible to overheating. 


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    That lap time of the Taycan is ridiculous, its a 2.4 ton sedan ffs.

    Finally a proper EV for people who like cars, and its just their first installment in EV...


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    AEAE353A-1A37-4618-A1BB-13FB8AC2A6DD.jpegTopspeed:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlI1_P8V5dA

     

    Nice one. Chris nails the shortcomings of Tesla, and those of the Taycan too. I looked at the Taycan rear seats at Porsche Leipzig today and they really are smaller than they should be for the size of the car. 
     

     


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Indeed, that was a proper analysis by Harris


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    You battery experts out there—Is it reasonable to assume that, within the next five years or so, batteries will get much lighter and far more efficient? Similar to the evolution of cell phones?


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Wonderbar:

    You battery experts out there—Is it reasonable to assume that, within the next five years or so, batteries will get much lighter and far more efficient? Similar to the evolution of cell phones?

    Not a battery expert but know enough of the diffusion of innovation curves associated with lithium ion batteries to write that while costs will decrease as power densities increase, the advances will not follow the rates observed with semiconductors.  Recall that microprocessors followed Moore’s Law, which imply a doubling of computing power every eighteen to twenty-four months. Therefore, a microprocessor price falls in half over the same time period.  Batteries are reversible chemical reactions and improvements are under 5% per year.  
     

    If solid state batteries become commercially viable, battery technology would then follow a different technology curve than the current technologies.  Improvements, according to the literature I have read, could improve 15% to 20% per annum.  This implies that a liter of petrol retains its advantages in terms of energy density for a couple of more decades. 


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Fascinating, thank you. As I understand it, if batteries improve less than 5% per year, we should not see significant weight improvement for at least five or 10 more years.


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Wonderbar:

    Fascinating, thank you. As I understand it, if batteries improve less than 5% per year, we should not see significant weight improvement for at least five or 10 more years.

    Don’t forget that cells are only one part of the battery pack.  As energy densities increase thermo control and crash protection become even more important.  Under current technologies, a 100 kWh battery has the energy equivalence of approximately 11.4 liters of petrol and weighs about 8.2 kilograms.  The fuel storage and delivery system weighs about the same. The corresponding battery pack in a Tesla, Audi, or Porsche weighs from 550 to 680 kilograms.  

    Some argue that an internal combustion engine has 1/3 the energy efficiency of an EV so the petrol consumed is 3 times greater or 24 kilograms. Again, the energy delivery system for a petrol fuel vehicle weighs 20 times less than the current electrical storage systems.  Rerun the calculations, if an ICE system becomes more efficient.  The Atkinson cycle ICE used in a Toyota Prius is said obtain 40% efficiency and the Mahle Jet ignition system used on Ferrari’s F1 car is over 50% efficient.  These advances mean, absent regulations, ICEs can remain economically attractive for decades.  


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    CGX car nut:
    Wonderbar:

    You battery experts out there—Is it reasonable to assume that, within the next five years or so, batteries will get much lighter and far more efficient? Similar to the evolution of cell phones?

    Not a battery expert but know enough of the diffusion of innovation curves associated with lithium ion batteries to write that while costs will decrease as power densities increase, the advances will not follow the rates observed with semiconductors.  Recall that microprocessors followed Moore’s Law, which imply a doubling of computing power every eighteen to twenty-four months. Therefore, a microprocessor price falls in half over the same time period.  Batteries are reversible chemical reactions and improvements are under 5% per year.  
     

    If solid state batteries become commercially viable, battery technology would then follow a different technology curve than the current technologies.  Improvements, according to the literature I have read, could improve 15% to 20% per annum.  This implies that a liter of petrol retains its advantages in terms of energy density for a couple of more decades. 

    +1

     

    ...and 5% is quite optimistic. Porsche  (in the LMP1 days) used to talk about 3% battery improvement.

     

    Furthermore, replacing cars with EV's in the UK would take:

    • 200% of cobalt currently mined globally.
    • 75% of the Lithium
    • 50% copper.

    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Wonderbar:

    You battery experts out there—Is it reasonable to assume that, within the next five years or so, batteries will get much lighter and far more efficient? Similar to the evolution of cell phones?

    A real breakthrough could give EVs a major push.

    Real breakthrough = Full charge in 20% or less of the (average) time required now and at least 50% less weight.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    RC:
    Wonderbar:

    You battery experts out there—Is it reasonable to assume that, within the next five years or so, batteries will get much lighter and far more efficient? Similar to the evolution of cell phones?

    A real breakthrough could give EVs a major push.

    Real breakthrough = Full charge in 20% or less of the (average) time required now and at least 50% less weight.

    The transition time of that breakthrough from the research laboratory to commercialized product will take longer than you would expect because of its lengthy testing period.   Any breakthrough will not be a simple modification of compounds currently in use.  Instead, those breakthroughs will involve new processes and procedures requiring new machinery too after a testing period determines the breakthrough is safe, reliable, and economically viable. 


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Spyderidol:
    CGX car nut:
    Wonderbar:

    You battery experts out there—Is it reasonable to assume that, within the next five years or so, batteries will get much lighter and far more efficient? Similar to the evolution of cell phones?

    Not a battery expert but know enough of the diffusion of innovation curves associated with lithium ion batteries to write that while costs will decrease as power densities increase, the advances will not follow the rates observed with semiconductors.  Recall that microprocessors followed Moore’s Law, which imply a doubling of computing power every eighteen to twenty-four months. Therefore, a microprocessor price falls in half over the same time period.  Batteries are reversible chemical reactions and improvements are under 5% per year.  
     

    If solid state batteries become commercially viable, battery technology would then follow a different technology curve than the current technologies.  Improvements, according to the literature I have read, could improve 15% to 20% per annum.  This implies that a liter of petrol retains its advantages in terms of energy density for a couple of more decades. 

    +1

     

    ...and 5% is quite optimistic. Porsche  (in the LMP1 days) used to talk about 3% battery improvement.

     

    Furthermore, replacing cars with EV's in the UK would take:

    • 200% of cobalt currently mined globally.
    • 75% of the Lithium
    • 50% copper.

    One used a 5% factor to stem excessive criticism from a poster or two.  
     

    Completely agree that the transition to EV will require massive investment in mining and processing resources with corresponding environmental damage.  So much for it being good for the planet.  Cobalt mining, for example, depending on the geographic location may include the exploitation of children.  Copper mining and smelting is an environmental evil.  However, the world’s regulators and Greta know best.  


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Yes the Taycan is a beast!!  I love electric power and while I am sorry those in Europe feel that the time has not come yet it has for me and I am thrilled.  If batteries advance it will be just in time for when mine wears out in 10 years or so. Should cost less that a clutch for the Turbo at that point and will carry some nice improvements with it too I would assume. 
    The kick in the ass and the stealth nature of the above is my favorite aspect. 


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Leawood911:

    Yes the Taycan is a beast!!  I love electric power and while I am sorry those in Europe feel that the time has not come yet it has for me and I am thrilled.  If batteries advance it will be just in time for when mine wears out in 10 years or so. Should cost less that a clutch for the Turbo at that point and will carry some nice improvements with it too I would assume. 
    The kick in the ass and the stealth nature of the above is my favorite aspect. 

    Another cogent analysis, moving the dialogue ahead.  


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    CGX car nut:
    Spyderidol:
    CGX car nut:
    Wonderbar:

    You battery experts out there—Is it reasonable to assume that, within the next five years or so, batteries will get much lighter and far more efficient? Similar to the evolution of cell phones?

    Not a battery expert but know enough of the diffusion of innovation curves associated with lithium ion batteries to write that while costs will decrease as power densities increase, the advances will not follow the rates observed with semiconductors.  Recall that microprocessors followed Moore’s Law, which imply a doubling of computing power every eighteen to twenty-four months. Therefore, a microprocessor price falls in half over the same time period.  Batteries are reversible chemical reactions and improvements are under 5% per year.  
     

    If solid state batteries become commercially viable, battery technology would then follow a different technology curve than the current technologies.  Improvements, according to the literature I have read, could improve 15% to 20% per annum.  This implies that a liter of petrol retains its advantages in terms of energy density for a couple of more decades. 

    +1

     

    ...and 5% is quite optimistic. Porsche  (in the LMP1 days) used to talk about 3% battery improvement.

     

    Furthermore, replacing cars with EV's in the UK would take:

    • 200% of cobalt currently mined globally.
    • 75% of the Lithium
    • 50% copper.

    One used a 5% factor to stem excessive criticism from a poster or two.  
     

    Completely agree that the transition to EV will require massive investment in mining and processing resources with corresponding environmental damage.  So much for it being good for the planet.  Cobalt mining, for example, depending on the geographic location may include the exploitation of children.  Copper mining and smelting is an environmental evil.  However, the world’s regulators and Greta know best.  

    Yes, unfortunately Enviro-Fascism is not about saving the planet. It's about control.


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    So true.  Even more unfortunate is that those that want to control others neither have the skills, capabilities, or experience. 


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    CGX car nut:
     

    The transition time of that breakthrough from the research laboratory to commercialized product will take longer than you would expect because of its lengthy testing period.   Any breakthrough will not be a simple modification of compounds currently in use.  Instead, those breakthroughs will involve new processes and procedures requiring new machinery too after a testing period determines the breakthrough is safe, reliable, and economically viable. 

     

    Depends on which company you talking about, one particular one save money and time by using consumers as test subjects.


    --

     

     


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    CGX car nut:

    So true.  Even more unfortunate is that those that want to control others neither have the skills, capabilities, or experience. 

    Let’s not discuss US politics on here ;)))


     
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