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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:
     

    Meaner and Leaner ("fritz")...this sounds interesting but why would Porsche not use the same strategy? Wouldn't it be the smart way? I thought that VW Group left the responsibility of the sports cars to Weissach and the others (Cayenne, Panamera, etc.) were "outsourced"? Right now, I cannot see any advantage of that in Porsche sports cars. Smiley

    Think of the other thread currently running here citing Walter Röhrl's views about the current preponderance of people in suits  - Powerpoint engineers and coffee-break managers  -  that he is confronted with. All those people will have to make work to keep each other occupied.   Smiley

    With regard to your second point about the division of responsibilities: It's just the responsibilities for the basic platforms for different car models which are delegated to particular group companies. The design, development and testing of the individual models built on the basis of each of those platforms still remain with the actual brands, so that each of them should be able to ensure that its own "traditional" heritage and values are reflected in its particular product, so that, for example, Cayenne, Tuareg, Q7 and Bentayga all end up with quite different driving characteristics, not just different looks.  
    --

    fritz

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:
    Whoopsy:

    With only 1 platform, McLaren doesn't need to do much to push out new products, the major research has already been done. They just have to put some different skin on the outside, tweak the engine and boom another product.

    Doesn't actually Porsche do the same with the 911? I just wish the 991 Turbo S had the performance of the 675 or even the 650S. Smiley Yes, the facelifted Turbo S will get closer but... Smiley

    Meaner and Leaner ("fritz")...this sounds interesting but why would Porsche not use the same strategy? Wouldn't it be the smart way? I thought that VW Group left the responsibility of the sports cars to Weissach and the others (Cayenne, Panamera, etc.) were "outsourced"? Right now, I cannot see any advantage of that in Porsche sports cars. Smiley

     

    McLaren is copying the 911 strategy that's for sure, which I why I have been saying the P1 is the 911GT2 RS for them, not the 918 category car. Even when the performance is similar. The P1 is basically a money grab in order to support McLaren's survival. Heck, McLaren would have made a healthy profit on each P1 even if they sell it at 600k a piece.

    But now that they are set financially, their next real grounds up hypercar will be something to look forward to.

     

     


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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:

    I also know that Porsche tests and compares "competitor" products to their own cars, so when it comes to raw straight line performance (0-200 kph performance would be an example), they can clearly see the difference. Why is Porsche lagging behind? 


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     

     

    I think Fritz is correct, but there is also another factor that is relevant.  Market pressure or lack thereof.

    There is no doubt that Porsche has expertise and resources to make a car from the ground up like the 960 that could compete with the 675LT.  But the VAG board may not see a reason to do that.  Profit margins on each 911 sold are extremely high and the cars are still selling relatively well.  What market pressure is there to beat the performance figures of McLaren at the present time?  When it starts affecting the bottom line, then the management will give the green light.

    McLaren by contrast is a very talented upstart, but has to offer this kind of performance to attract new customers.  Lotus has also had some very talented people but they just don't have the business people behind them to give them proper resources.  This is perhaps why you see some talented Lotus people leave to McLaren and Aston Martin.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I lurk around the forum here but don't post often at all.  I am a 458 owner, recently test drove a 650S, and it blew me away.

    The 650S is a better car than the 458 because of the following:

    - Chasis.  Carbon fiber tub (strong, rigid, lightweight).  458 still uses Aluminum Space Frame (heavier, not as rigid, old tech).  LaFerrari gets a carbon fiber monocoque though.

    - Seat position.  Close to the center line of the car and lower, a pleasant by product of a carbon tub.  Compare it to the interior of a LaFerrari and see for yourself.

    - Active hydraulic suspension.  Smooth, no pitch, no roll, no jerkiness, planted, tie-down, confidence inspiring, I feel like I can go faster in a 650S.  458 uses magnetic suspension.  The new 488 still uses magnetic suspension though upgraded version.  I haven't driven a 488 but I can tell you a 458 pitches and bounces, and you are always not sure about the front end.

    - Aero brake.  Adjusts to provide down force to the rear, under hard braking it pulls the rear of the car and pushes it down almost cancelling the forward weight transfer resulting in the "entire" car slowing down fast rather than diving forward then slow down.  Note that LaFerrari also has an aero brake.

    - Brake steer.  Try taking a 25 mph corner in 3rd gear at about 4k to 5k rpm then you will feel it and believe it.

    - Weight.  a 650S coupe is about 150 pounds lighter than a 458.

    - Turbo power.  All you need is 3500 rpm.  Acceleration is like a jet.

    I am selling my 458.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    tony2006:

    I lurk around the forum here but don't post often at all.  I am a 458 owner, recently test drove a 650S, and it blew me away.

    The 650S is a better car than the 458 because of the following:

    - Chasis.  Carbon fiber tub (strong, rigid, lightweight).  458 still uses Aluminum Space Frame (heavier, not as rigid, old tech).  LaFerrari gets a carbon fiber monocoque though.

    - Seat position.  Close to the center line of the car and lower, a pleasant by product of a carbon tub.  Compare it to the interior of a LaFerrari and see for yourself.

    - Active hydraulic suspension.  Smooth, no pitch, no roll, no jerkiness, planted, tie-down, confidence inspiring, I feel like I can go faster in a 650S.  458 uses magnetic suspension.  The new 488 still uses magnetic suspension though upgraded version.  I haven't driven a 488 but I can tell you a 458 pitches and bounces, and you are always not sure about the front end.

    - Aero brake.  Adjusts to provide down force to the rear, under hard braking it pulls the rear of the car and pushes it down almost cancelling the forward weight transfer resulting in the "entire" car slowing down fast rather than diving forward then slow down.  Note that LaFerrari also has an aero brake.

    - Brake steer.  Try taking a 25 mph corner in 3rd gear at about 4k to 5k rpm then you will feel it and believe it.

    - Weight.  a 650S coupe is about 150 pounds lighter than a 458.

    - Turbo power.  All you need is 3500 rpm.  Acceleration is like a jet.

    I am selling my 458.

     

    Everything you said is old news from 3 years ago, describing the 12C. 650S just adds a little power on top.


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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:
    Futch:
    SciFrog:

    Coming from you François and after you trashed the speciale a bit it is a BIG statement... Said it before, I might consider an FF equivalent from them if they ever make one...

    I've liked everything about that brand ever since I met them. There's a boutique approach that Ferrari can only dream of, let alone Porsche. The 650 was truly brilliant. Most impressive was its steering feel and handling. It reminded me of my Carrera GT but better. Engine not as charismatic nor musical but it goes nonetheless . Anyway all 600hp + cars now all feel very fast at the limit. My test was only about 50km but to me it's a much better car than the floaty 458. I begged for an LT and I've just had a slot confirmed for later this year. I sat in an LT at the factory and the bucket is sublime. Narrow, enclined and extremely supportive. The interior is amazing. Very cocooning and the centre console reminds me of my CGT but with a proper infotainment system. The styling is still a bit much at the front but at least the brand now has it's own identity and the rear of the car is very nice on the LT. I was with my mate Paul Lanzante who looks after my F1 so we were well received. He bought the batch of P1 XP cars so we had a close look at that car too. I never looked at it in details and its a fine machine. 570S looks great too. It'll be interesting to see how it does but the interior is great!

     

    Congratulations, Futch! Smiley Smiley

    I enjoyed the read and yes, McLaren may not get the credit they deserve but maybe there is one little thing to think about: How can such a small company offer actually the same or better performance/quality than the "major" players in the business like Ferrari, Porsche or Lamborghini? Do they have some sort of secret ingredient or do they have the better engineers with the better understanding of sports cars? Or aren't they as profitable as Ferrari or Porsche for example? I understand your enthusiasm and I haven't driven the "new" 650 yet but the only McLaren I drove was the MP4-12C and I was underwhelmed (OK, amazing acceleration and fantastic ESP setup, no doubt about it).

    So why would McLaren do it better than Ferrari or Porsche with less resources and experience? Smiley Or have Porsche and Ferrari lost their touch? Please forgive my bluntness but I honestly think that McLaren could be onto something Ferrari and especially Porsche could have "missed".

    I also know that Porsche tests and compares "competitor" products to their own cars, so when it comes to raw straight line performance (0-200 kph performance would be an example), they can clearly see the difference. Why is Porsche lagging behind? 


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     

    Very good questions Christian. For me Ferrari and Porsches still make great cars of course. It's just over the years with the cars I own I've become extremely demanding. You've read my post and you know my tastes. For me ergonomy is key. A good car is a car with a perfect driving position and a good steering feel. Exit modern Ferraris then. (Again that's my opinion). Except laferrari who has a good driving and pedal position. Handling: Porsche is spot on. Ferraris are too light on their feet for me. I find the front end to have too much bite compared to the rear. Maybe more brake bias on the rear could help but you can't adjust that in a road car. Porsches are fantastic but of late the company has become bigger and that nice little firm approach is gone. A feeling shared by some of my factory drivers mates. The older ones of course. Still lovely cars. GT4 is epic. GT3RS should be a riot. 918 is not my cup of tea but it is the 959 of the modern era, a triumph of engineering. McLaren I only just recently discovered and I'm impressed. Great ethos. Nice small firm. Dennis doesn't mind losing tons of cash to develop nice cars. The genetics are good. A carbon tub chassis offers great rigidity from which you can setup your preferred handling traits. Driving position is the best I've ever experienced. You're very close to the centre. The controls are brilliant. It's like laferrari but with a better seat. The steering is hydraulic and much better than the GT4 for example. The front end reminds me of my 458GT2. Of course it has downsides. The engine had ample power but it's turbo so not the most responsive nor greatest to hear but when everything else is so good it's fine by me. And the paddles move with the wheel. Like a proper car. I hate it on Ferraris to have fixed paddles. Not sure it answers your question but I think Porsche and Ferrari have corporate constraints that Macca doesn't. A much smaller company with a lot less people takin decisions. The first years have been difficult, to be expected, actually to make such brilliant cars after only four years is rather amazing. It's an engineers car. It focuses a lot more in the performance rather than emotions and I like that. 

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Thank you, Futch. Again, a very nice (and highly informative) write up. kiss

    So maybe I will give McLaren a try again, sometimes in the future, when I can actually (maybe) afford one.  Why should I lie, the new 650S and of course the 675LT attract me a lot and even the new 570S seems to be an interesting product but they are a little bit of my price range for a weekend toy. laugh

    I love small firms and "genetics" and people who work there and still care about their work and every detail, this is something I always loved about Porsche but maybe this touch is fading away slowly, it would be very very sad indeed.

    There are people like Dr. Mössle or Achleitner at Porsche, who have fuel in their blood and are so connected to the cars they develop. I heard a lot of rumors of a "new beginning" regarding the 911, a major development step with the next 911 generation. Lets just hope this is true because each and every day I am driving my 991 C4 GTS Cab, not necessarily a high performance sportscar judging by it's weight and power to weight ratio, I am reminded why I love the brand Porsche and why I love the 911. I just wish I could have a GT4 and GT3 RS as well as weekend toys but life is good and I shouldn't complain. 

    Thanks again for your insight, I will take a closer look a McLaren as soon as my "pockets" will permit it. wink


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Very well said!!  after 6000km of track driving on my 650S, I must say an precision-guided engineering weapon!  hands down on the electronics which help makes the car extremely stable on all kinds of corners, and I believe entering high speed corners with faster speed.  To tackle down that 650horses on 2 rear wheels are impressive with all the helps from its suspension and break steer......  

    Many thinks this car is just fast on straight and lacks the attitude....  not much character....  I must say, I enjoyed much more from 650S than 458....  458 makes me nervous and that takes me less confidence into corners... Front end is very light and spontaneous.... but it takes much more efforts on the track to get a good stop watch read out....  650S in that comparsion is effortless to get a good result, in that sense, I agree it lacks character in the car...  Sound is inevitably been muted by its turbo, and that I already aware 15years ago when I started to play with different cars.  I am not disappointed, since I know I can not have best of two different world.   When I can hit corners faster than 991GT3 and passing that magic GT3, I think people talks 650S "lacking character" or "appearances looks bad" It does not matter!! Cause I am enjoying it, while others just talks about it........

    There was one point : Tires like Corsa, cup2, and TroferoR, u can push the car faster into corners and exit with earlier push speed.  it is when these tires exist now so regular 600+horses cars are able to drive on street.... looking back on CGT or GT2RS....  I wonder if these cars can out run these new 600+horses on the medium speed tracks....  

    McLaren just send 3 staffs from UK to Taiwan to have one on one personal chat with each customers to see what we need and what they lack off, and what they can improve.....  and only now they are listening to their initial customers to improve their cars and sales and managments.  They spent 2 hours with me! Only then I felt They care! and they listen! They hand written down on each point.  I am just a customer brought 1 car from them!  These people come for a week to talk as many customer as they could!  I must say after I brought 3 of 911s and 2 Cayenne from Porsche, I never had any chat with any one from Porsche anywhere...  only my sales man!!   I never know when my car comes, and I have to order it 9month ahead of time, and till the moment arrived into inspection point in Taiwan, we don't know when the stage of the car comes!  in that respect! I must say McLaren managed their customer relations 100times better than Porsche!  Small company is better in that sense.

    After 6000km of hardcore track driving; one instance a bigger rock hit the door air-intake mesh and caused the mesh to come loose and makes big noises.  That was the only problem I get from this car!  never had any problems. Realiable car from small company.  Yet my Cayenne!!!  break fluid leaks, and PCM failed and replaced the entire unit, sport-exhaust flap won't open..... problems goes on (for Cayenne), 911 has very few issues.....  

    Further the carbon MONOcell tub!!  I must say!!  what a differences it made.  not only made the car very light and safe, but the response from each corner is very direct and sensitive!!!  compared to 911s I must say all of the future sports cars should have Carbon MonoCell to some extent!!  its a must!!!  and with tech. now these days, should make it massive productional!!  u have to drive it and realize how good it is!!!    RC posted a 12C crash with old man driving at 170km/hour and walks out!!!  door still opens on one side!!  what more can u say.....  safety is the bottom line when we plays with these weapons!  The tub are extra insurance u brought urself when bad things does happen!!  

    going onto third sets of tires on this 650S, I must say, this car gives me absolute satisfaction!!  However, am waiting for my NA KING GT3RS, Then I have the best from both world!!  


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

     

    McLaren 650S Smokes The Tesla P850  http://youtu.be/y7j8BfIrfpY


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    If I would buy another sports car then the RS , it would be a McLaren ! Thanks for your write up huangester


    --

     997.2 C2 ,  -20mm  I 964 Carrera 4 I 991 GT3 RS on order delivery early Sept .


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I had the same perception in the MP4 - loved the car and would take a 650/675LT over anything if I had to choose right now


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Marco.9T3:

    Full technical details are released: http://media.mclarenautomotive.com/release/324/

    Performance figures:

    0-97 km/h (0-60 mph)                    2.8 seconds
    0-100 km/h (0-62 mph)                  2.9 seconds
    0-161 km/h (0-100 mph)                5.5 seconds              
    0-200 km/h (0-124 mph)                7.9 seconds
    0-300 km/h (0-186 mph)                22.5 seconds
    0-400m / ¼ mile                            10.45 seconds @ 228 km/h (142 mph)
    Top speed                                     330 km/h (205 mph)  
    Power-to-weight                            549PS per tonne

     

    Sport Auto got their hands on one

    Nurburgring GP - 1:34,4

    Slalom 18m: 73,0 km/h

    Acceleration:
    0-100:
    3,0
    0-160: 5,7
    0-200: 8,3
    0-300: 24,6

    Braking:
    100-0 (C/W):
    39,8m / 31,8m
    200-0: 128,9m
    300-0: 269,8m

    Weight w/fuel: 1,402 kg

    Tire(s): Pirelli P Zero Trofeo R
    F/R: 235/35/19 - 305/30/20


    Driver: Christian Gebhardt


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    If only they changed that god awful joker face front end, I would have taken a 675.


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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Whoopsy:

    If only they changed that god awful joker face front end, I would have taken a 675.

     

    Time to enter the world of coach builders.  :D  Seriously though, I've never really liked it the front end either, but seems to suit the 675 much better than the 650S.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Impressive numbers. The super car scene cleary marks underneath 3 seconds 0-60 now. WOW!

    Joker Face.... I have to say I like it much better than on that face on the first cars.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Actually this SA test is one of the most bashing against a single car, which I have ever seen.

    McLaren's fan forum is on fire in the last few hours... 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    0-200 kph in 8.3 seconds...I am impressed. kiss

    Not sure why the McLaren community would feel that the Sport Auto article is bashing the car, this is just not true. Maybe they expected a higher praise? yes


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:

    0-200 kph in 8.3 seconds...I am impressed. kiss

    Not sure why the McLaren community would feel that the Sport Auto article is bashing the car, this is just not true. Maybe they expected a higher praise? yes

    Main points are:

    1. Handling problems;

    2. Weight is far from expected... 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    hunterone:

    So many journalists and also testdrives compare the feeling between a 12C on P Zero a 650S on P Zero Corsa and a 675LT on Trofeo R. And after extensive time in the 650S its mainly the tire where all the magic comes from.

    Thats what i wrote 3 weeks ago - you cant tune the handling of the car to sharp turn in and no understeer with 235 front tires even with 20mm wider track - ive on my 12c 30mm wider front track and the understeer is nearly the same as without. Why does have a 918 or GT3 RS 265 front tires ? To get better turn in and less understeer.

    Also i see the same problem upcoming for the 570s with 225 front tires.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Those lads at MLife are a very sensitive bunch, they simply cannot take any criticisms, everything has to be reported at 100% great or else they will throw a fit. It's a circle jerk community. 

    P1 has maxed out the tire size at 245/315 for the 12C platform, one step up from the 235/305 on the 12C/650S, they can't possibly put those bigger tires on the 675, as if they do, the 675 will be awfully close to the P1 in performance. 

     


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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I have to say that from this video the S570 sounds v good. McLaren got this one right!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bZPf7N-Uho


    --

    2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2014 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab 2014 BMW i3 2017 Porsche Mission E on order


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Chris H drives the affordable one (570S).... seems to quite like it.  Especially that it wants to oversteer a bit... how to impress Harris lesson 101.  

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyBc1GnJVlM

    Quote from Chris: "the competition needs to watch out... what is the competition?  Because this feels a lot more special than, say, a 911 turbo..."    (cue discussion about rear seats, trunk space, not attracting attention, etc.... Smiley ). 

    And, now the XCar people drive it too... McL must have had a media event Smiley.   Key takeaways:  skinnier tires, bigger boot, and.... cup-holders!!! 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLKidHEmbJo


    --

     

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Solid reviews.



    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    This car is definitely going to take sales from the R8...


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    These McLarens are awesome, they will catch on in a serious way. Its got me on the configurator for a 675LT, Chicane, black wheels with all the carbon bits, I would add the carbon front bonnet and top ( if its available ) too. They are just so limited.


    --

    throt

    "I Have Done It!".

    991 GT3 pick up in October 2014.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I liked the 570S, you get pretty much 85-90% of the P1 at a fraction o the cost, it's a even better deal when compared with the 650S. Who would want to buy a 650S when the 570S is just as good, only a fraction slower? 

    The cycle of McLaren copying Porsche is almost complete. the 12C was the 911 Turbo, the 650S is the 911 Turbo S, P1 is the 911 GT2RS, and now the 570S is the 911 GTS, aka best value in the range. Heck, McLaren even copied the 918's rear, fixed metal mess engine cover and only a tiny door for oil fill up. 

     


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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Eh, I wouldn't say 911 GTS is the best value. GT3 is the best value because it actually retains value lol. GTS is the worst value because it's so expensive and will retain value no better than any normal 911.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Whoopsy:

    I liked the 570S, you get pretty much 85-90% of the P1 at a fraction o the cost, it's a even better deal when compared with the 650S. Who would want to buy a 650S when the 570S is just as good, only a fraction slower? 

    The cycle of McLaren copying Porsche is almost complete. the 12C was the 911 Turbo, the 650S is the 911 Turbo S, P1 is the 911 GT2RS, and now the 570S is the 911 GTS, aka best value in the range. Heck, McLaren even copied the 918's rear, fixed metal mess engine cover and only a tiny door for oil fill up. 

     

    C'mon Nick, you cant compare the P1 to the GT2 RS Smiley...P1 and 918 yes  Smiley


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    Eh, I wouldn't say 911 GTS is the best value. GT3 is the best value because it actually retains value lol. GTS is the worst value because it's so expensive and will retain value no better than any normal 911.

    Not really. The 991 Carrera S or especially the more expensive Carrera 4S models will have serious issues with resale value. I know a guy at my dealer who paid 158k EUR for his 991 Carrera 4S Coupe. My 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cab was 162k EUR. Most 991 Carrera S I saw at my dealer were in the 140k EUR price range. Most Carrera 4S around 155k EUR and most Cabs were over 160k EUR.

    I do not know how well the GTS models will hold their value (a lot depends on how well the new turbo charged models will be accepted) but I would worry much more about resale value if I'd own a 991 Carrera S or 4S, not the GTS. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


     
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