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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Italo:
    Whoopsy:

    I liked the 570S, you get pretty much 85-90% of the P1 at a fraction o the cost, it's a even better deal when compared with the 650S. Who would want to buy a 650S when the 570S is just as good, only a fraction slower? 

    The cycle of McLaren copying Porsche is almost complete. the 12C was the 911 Turbo, the 650S is the 911 Turbo S, P1 is the 911 GT2RS, and now the 570S is the 911 GTS, aka best value in the range. Heck, McLaren even copied the 918's rear, fixed metal mess engine cover and only a tiny door for oil fill up. 

     

    C'mon Nick, you cant compare the P1 to the GT2 RS Smiley...P1 and 918 yes  Smiley

     

    Performance wise, yes absolutely, it is equal to the 918.

    Architecturally speaking, it is not even close to the 918. Peel off the skin of the P1 and what's left is a souped up 12C. Peel off the skin of a GT2RS, it is a souped up 911 Turbo. Plain and simple. 

    The fact that the P1 is a souped up 12C with a different exterior is beyond debate, it's a proven fact. Even McLaren itself doesn't refute that claim anymore.


    --

     

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Italo:
    Whoopsy:

    I liked the 570S, you get pretty much 85-90% of the P1 at a fraction o the cost, it's a even better deal when compared with the 650S. Who would want to buy a 650S when the 570S is just as good, only a fraction slower? 

    The cycle of McLaren copying Porsche is almost complete. the 12C was the 911 Turbo, the 650S is the 911 Turbo S, P1 is the 911 GT2RS, and now the 570S is the 911 GTS, aka best value in the range. Heck, McLaren even copied the 918's rear, fixed metal mess engine cover and only a tiny door for oil fill up. 

     

    C'mon Nick, you cant compare the P1 to the GT2 RS Smiley...P1 and 918 yes  Smiley

     

    +1


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    This entry level macca at same price as the Turbo S will be a hell of a car, considering the weight difference and 2WD, it will be a lot more fun to drive.

    Torque is served progressively over an incredibly broad powerband, encouraging the driver to use all 8500rpm.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I am sure Porsche will have an answer, as usual Smiley

    BTW this cockpit looks very rough and rudimentary for a €200.000 car.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Porsche won't have the answer. 991.2 Turbo S is superfast but, it is not the natural competitor for 570s.

    R8 V10 Plus is the answer. According to my Motorpresse friend Audi is in his opinion a better sportscar from several points of view. Aside from steering system preferance he wrote to me that 570s is actually pretty nervous and demanding car for truly fast driving on country roads. Same on the track. He likes that R8 is providing confidence boost for spirited driving while 570s is more a car for someone who really have tons of experience with mid engine sportscars, a Kenner, Germans would say. 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    KresoF1:

    Porsche won't have the answer. 991.2 Turbo S is superfast but, it is not the natural competitor for 570s.

    R8 V10 Plus is the answer. According to my Motorpresse friend Audi is in his opinion a better sportscar from several points of view. Aside from steering system preferance he wrote to me that 570s is actually pretty nervous and demanding car for truly fast driving on country roads. Same on the track. He likes that R8 is providing confidence boost for spirited driving while 570s is more a car for someone who really have tons of experience with mid engine sportscars, a Kenner, Germans would say. 

    Competitors don't necessarily have to be of the same layout.

    A 991.2 GT3 variant (GT3 S or GT3 R or GT3 GTS etc)  could take away potential sales from the new McLaren.

    Similarly, people who have bought a GT3 RS might have bought a mid-engined 458/488 Ferrari instead if this 911 model wasn't available. Someone here has already mentioned that if he doesn't get a GT3 RS allotment he'll look into the 488.

    Or how Porsche have managed to make the 911 GTS into an AMG-GT competitor even if on paper the two cars have nothing in common.

    BTW in the CAR magazine 2015 Sports car group comparison the RS is placed #1 above the new Ferrari.

    According to your Motorpresse contact we'll see a lot of crashed 570s smiley

     


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    285mm rears, even Corsas do not provide excellent traction. Only good traction. My friend felt that 570s is"undertired" sportscar. 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Whoopsy mentioned how the P1 is under-tyred too.

    It seems that McLaren's one-size-fits-all carbon chassis forces them to make compromises.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    KresoF1:

    285mm rears, even Corsas do not provide excellent traction. Only good traction. My friend felt that 570s is"undertired" sportscar. 

    Which can be a good thing rather than a bad thing if the aim is to provide a fun steering car. We're seeing a lot of 'overtired' cars recently and it robs cars of balance, tactility and steering feel. 


    --

    2003 BMW M3 CSL (sold) / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS / 2013 MINI John Cooper Works GP / 2014 BMW Alpina D3 biturbo Touring


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Porker:
    KresoF1:

    285mm rears, even Corsas do not provide excellent traction. Only good traction. My friend felt that 570s is"undertired" sportscar. 

    Which can be a good thing rather than a bad thing if the aim is to provide a fun steering car. We're seeing a lot of 'overtired' cars recently and it robs cars of balance, tactility and steering feel. 

    Actually, I agree with you. Key word here is balance. 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    reginos:

    I am sure Porsche will have an answer, as usual Smiley

    BTW this cockpit looks very rough and rudimentary for a €200.000 car.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     

     

    Actually it is very nice in real life. I sat in a prototype, even that feels very nice inside. 


    --

     

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    KresoF1:

    Porsche won't have the answer. 991.2 Turbo S is superfast but, it is not the natural competitor for 570s.

    R8 V10 Plus is the answer. According to my Motorpresse friend Audi is in his opinion a better sportscar from several points of view. Aside from steering system preferance he wrote to me that 570s is actually pretty nervous and demanding car for truly fast driving on country roads. Same on the track. He likes that R8 is providing confidence boost for spirited driving while 570s is more a car for someone who really have tons of experience with mid engine sportscars, a Kenner, Germans would say. 

    Real life competition for the 570 includes the fact that McLaren is still hobbled by a dealer network nowhere near that of Audi or Porsche.  For many, whether it is a more rewarding drive is far less relevant than a 600 km drive to nearest dealer. But if you are close to a Macca dealer..... sounds worth a test drive at least.   The only reliability issue I am aware of with first gen 12C models, is a number of Graziano gearbox failures.    


    --

     

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    reginos:

    BTW this cockpit looks very rough and rudimentary for a €200.000 car.

     

    I suspect this is a function of this photo. In person the cockpit does have a quality feel to it - especially the TFT display.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Doesn't Aston have similar dealer reach issues?


    --

    991 Carrera Black\Black, XC90 Black\Black, 120 Cab Black\Coral Red - 2 kids, 1 dog


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    bridggar:

    Doesn't Aston have similar dealer reach issues?

    To some extent, but McLaren is worse; AM has about 44 dealers in Can/US compared to 18 for McLaren.  For either, many significant cities end up a large distance from the nearest authorized dealer...  On the plus side McLaren's dealers have mostly received good reviews from what I have picked up.    


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I don't think the difficulty of driving a 570S is necessarily bad. It's a trait that will be desirable to some, but not others.  In an age of cars becoming increasingly faster, we must have something to keep us engaged, otherwise cars will become point and shoot devices with no real driver necessary.

    285 rears on a car with 570hp.  Definitely makes the GT4 seem over tired with 295 Sport Cup 2, yet only 385hp.

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Comparing the 570S to the 991 Turbo S isn't really possible and yes, for the good old reasons like dealership network (I have a Porsche dealer every 50 km or so in Germany), parts availability (repairs, maintenance) and of course the fact that the 991 Turbo S looks like a 911 (less "in your face" sports car) and last but not least has two rear seats. Not to forget the AWD which may or may not be important in some regions of this world, especially in Europe but also Canada and parts of the US.

    If the 570S would have a base price of lets say 150k EUR, it could be an interesting alternative but for the same money as a 991 Turbo S? I don't think so. Sorry to say that. The only McLaren I would get right now is probably the 650S and of course the 675LT.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:

    Comparing the 570S to the 991 Turbo S isn't really possible and yes, for the good old reasons like dealership network (I have a Porsche dealer every 50 km or so in Germany), parts availability (repairs, maintenance) and of course the fact that the 991 Turbo S looks like a 911 (less "in your face" sports car) and last but not least has two rear seats. Not to forget the AWD which may or may not be important in some regions of this world, especially in Europe but also Canada and parts of the US.

    If the 570S would have a base price of lets say 150k EUR, it could be an interesting alternative but for the same money as a 991 Turbo S? I don't think so. Sorry to say that. The only McLaren I would get right now is probably the 650S and of course the 675LT.

    You got it the other way round, the 991 should be priced at 150k , if, they wanted to keep their faithful customers loyal to the brand which didn't happen Smiley


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    In Germany, if you would give the typical sports car customer a choice to get a 570S or a 991 Turbo S for the same money, I already know what this customer would choose. 

    1. 991 Turbo S has AWD (huge plus in Germany, Austria and Switzerland, these cars are used over the whole year, incl. winter time).

    2. 991 Turbo S has two backseats (many customers have kids or dogs or they just need the space for their golf bags). Why do you think the 911 is so successful in Germany?

    3. 991 Turbo S will be accepted by the German tax office as a business car, depending in which business you are and how much money you make. It is very unlikely that a McLaren would be accepted, unless you are really making tons of money and pay tons of taxes.

    4. 991 Turbo S can be maintained by every Porsche dealer in the vicinity, we have a Porsche dealership every 40-50 km over here. Parts are usually available within a day.

    5. 991 Turbo S insurance cost is pretty low because owners usually know how to drive and repair cost is quite OK.

    6. 991 Turbo S lease offers are quite good (however, McLaren offered some good deals on the 650S lately, so maybe their lease offers will improve as well).

    7. 991 Turbo S looks more or less like a regular 911, the 570S looks like an exotic (which can be a huge problem in Germany, depending on where you live and what business you're in).

    So this is why McLaren needs to be cheaper than Porsche if they want to sell their cars over here. Simple. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    It will differ from country to country, but more will be attracted towards the 911 because of the 1 - 7 points you brought up which imho is really sad, especially the backseat part. (buy a damn suv or a mini-bus) sad

    Lately, I've been hearing from my sales advisors/managers (Lambo/Ferrari etc,,,) customers are jumping into these sportscars with a starbucks cup checking out whether the cup holder is available or thier cups will fit or not. angry 

    488 GTB: there’s even a cupholder thanks to American customer lobbying heart

    I've been showing this interior to some owners and soon to take delivery of 488 / 911 Turbo and they spitted out one word "atrocious" indecision they thought it may be a kit car


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I don't think the McLarens are an obvious alternative for the average/normal sportscar buyer.

    They are mostly for people who have had most brands and several examples of 911s or Ferraris etc.  and they want to try something else and provided that the scarcity of dealerships is not an obstacle. 

    I don't think many aspire to a McLaren but rather some sportscar owners might divert to a McLaren.

     


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:

    In Germany, if you would give the typical sports car customer a choice to get a 570S or a 991 Turbo S for the same money, I already know what this customer would choose. 

    1. 991 Turbo S has AWD (huge plus in Germany, Austria and Switzerland, these cars are used over the whole year, incl. winter time).

    2. 991 Turbo S has two backseats (many customers have kids or dogs or they just need the space for their golf bags). Why do you think the 911 is so successful in Germany?

    3. 991 Turbo S will be accepted by the German tax office as a business car, depending in which business you are and how much money you make. It is very unlikely that a McLaren would be accepted, unless you are really making tons of money and pay tons of taxes.

    4. 991 Turbo S can be maintained by every Porsche dealer in the vicinity, we have a Porsche dealership every 40-50 km over here. Parts are usually available within a day.

    5. 991 Turbo S insurance cost is pretty low because owners usually know how to drive and repair cost is quite OK.

    6. 991 Turbo S lease offers are quite good (however, McLaren offered some good deals on the 650S lately, so maybe their lease offers will improve as well).

    7. 991 Turbo S looks more or less like a regular 911, the 570S looks like an exotic (which can be a huge problem in Germany, depending on where you live and what business you're in).

    So this is why McLaren needs to be cheaper than Porsche if they want to sell their cars over here. Simple. 


    Points one to seven are all true (though I'm not sure about the backseat argument), your conclusion the Mac has to be cheaper is not IMO.

    Of course a Porsche Turbo will always attract more buyers than a 570S and this is the reason why it will be sold in higher numbers than the McLaren. But there are customers, who will say the following:

    1. Turbo S is boring as hell, 570S gives me thrills whenenver I drive the car, even when parking. Smiley

    2. When I spend this kind of money, I want something more than a "ordinary" 911, so the 570S is the perfect choice (though I can't afford a 488 or Huracan or don't have the balls to order such an exotic).

    3. 570S gives me latest technology with CF-tub, 911 looks ancient in comparison.

    4. I want a midengined car, not a 911 with engine-layout like a Beetle, but please something more exciting than an Audi R8.

    Only some arguments and yes, the 570S will be sold in lower numbers, but as fas as I can judge so far, this car has great potential, even in Germany.


    --

    We're at the point where you can be the fastest or just sound like you're the fastest.



    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Just one remark-570S is base pricewise 20K € less in Germany then 991.1 Turbo S. Even with full exterior and interior CF options  570S is more or less the same money as full option 991.1 Turbo S. If you skip CF options 570S could be up to 15K € less.

    Car is actually priced very well, at least in Germany and Dörr is  having pretty decent  dealers network in southern Germany.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Being an Englishman I am a big McLaren fan - BUT - the 570S exterior looks horrible! I am very fortunate to have a McLaren and AM dealer only a few miles away. But the TTS ticks many more boxes for me that any McLaren right now.

     


    --

    2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2014 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab 2014 BMW i3 2017 Porsche Mission E on order


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I think we should not be too harsh to McLaren for their designs. It is not easy for a company without a heritage in road cars and no previous reference points to come up with a successful styling identity and design language after just 4-5 years.

    The British in general don't have a heritage in mid-engined sportscars. The Italians can draw from their exquisite designs of the 60s and 70s and the Germans apply the no-frills concept of the early motorsport Porsches even to their most expensive car the 918.

    Their 12C was a very generic and lacked any individuality. With their subsequent cars McLaren are trying to convey through their styling the message that they are avant garde, high-tech and state-of-the-art, Some people like these designs and buy their cars whilst others view the McLaren road cars as borderline cartoonish with kit car styling elements. You cannot please them all.

    Personally, I respect McLaren for trying very hard to bring something new to the world of high performance automobiles.

     


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Rossi:
     

    Of course a Porsche Turbo will always attract more buyers than a 570S and this is the reason why it will be sold in higher numbers than the McLaren. But there are customers, who will say the following:

    1. Turbo S is boring as hell, 570S gives me thrills whenenver I drive the car, even when parking. Smiley

    True, no argument from me here.

    2. When I spend this kind of money, I want something more than a "ordinary" 911, so the 570S is the perfect choice (though I can't afford a 488 or Huracan or don't have the balls to order such an exotic).

    True as well but I doubt there is much difference in prices and most people have the same "exotic" perception as for the 488 or Huracan.

    3. 570S gives me latest technology with CF-tub, 911 looks ancient in comparison.

    True but when you need maintenance and/or repairs... (not that 570S owners wouldn't have a second or third car they could enjoy).

    4. I want a midengined car, not a 911 with engine-layout like a Beetle, but please something more exciting than an Audi R8.

    The Beetle has a front engine layout Smiley but I get your point, even if it is far fetched (and usually used by people who don't have much of a clue about cars but I understand that you are using this analogy to make me understand how "others" would argue) but I'm not so sure the new R8 is less exciting, especially when it comes to engine/exhaust sound.

    Only some arguments and yes, the 570S will be sold in lower numbers, but as fas as I can judge so far, this car has great potential, even in Germany.

    Every McLaren has potential in Germany but great potential? I doubt it. Looking at the current McLaren sales figures, I really don't know and the fact that the lease offer for the 650S was actually better than the lease offer for a 991 Turbo S also raises some eyebrows here. Almost got myself the 650S but luckily, my wife talked me out of it. Doesn't make any sense, she was right.

    I still think that McLaren would sell more cars at a lower price level for their entry level model 570S but maybe they cannot sell it cheaper, I don't have a clue about their build cost and so on.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:

    I still think that McLaren would sell more cars at a lower price level for their entry level model 570S but maybe they cannot sell it cheaper, I don't have a clue about their build cost and so on.

    My guess is that 570S doesn't cost much less to build than 675LT, just as 2.7L Boxster doesn't cost that much less to build than GT2 RS (certainly the build cost delta is not reflected in the price delta).  I would guess they need to sell quite a few 570S to make much profit and that the real reason for this car is to grow the dealer network and brand awareness.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Honestly I cannot see how McLaren could survive in the medium term.

    If Ferrari, the most historic and celebrated supercar manufacturer and the doyen of the exotics needed to be part of a large automotive group I cannot see how a small aspiring sportscar company with a very limited range and appeal could last long.

    Even the F1 team which could arouse some enthusiasm is not achieving anything.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    reginos:

    I think we should not be too harsh to McLaren for their designs. It is not easy for a company without a heritage in road cars and no previous reference points to come up with a successful styling identity and design language after just 4-5 years.

    The British in general don't have a heritage in mid-engined sportscars. The Italians can draw from their exquisite designs of the 60s and 70s and the Germans apply the no-frills concept of the early motorsport Porsches even to their most expensive car the 918.

    Their 12C was a very generic and lacked any individuality. With their subsequent cars McLaren are trying to convey through their styling the message that they are avant garde, high-tech and state-of-the-art, Some people like these designs and buy their cars whilst others view the McLaren road cars as borderline cartoonish with kit car styling elements. You cannot please them all.

    Personally, I respect McLaren for trying very hard to bring something new to the world of high performance automobiles.

    Agreed 100% 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    ooh, i'm liking the 570..  interesting.. 


    --

    2015 911 GT3, 2011 987S, 1964 Type 1


     
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