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    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    nberry said:

    I just read about an excellent Ferrari customer in Germany ordering a Scud and twice being told by his delaer there were delays and later found out his car was sold by his dealer for 60,000k over MSRP to someone else. This nonsense will kill Ferrari.



    Not quite correct: the guy you mention ordered a Scuderia at a German grey market dealer - NOT an official Ferrari dealer... Anyway, his story is very sad. He really looked forward to owning this car. You could tell from his posts

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Tom, with the 149 and Ferrari production doubling, the exclusivity factor will take a hit. If Porsche could visually distnguish the car form the 911 lineup, it would certainly get my attention.

    I just read about an excellent Ferrari customer in Germany ordering a Scud and twice being told by his delaer there were delays and later found out his car was sold by his dealer for 60,000k over MSRP to someone else. This nonsense will kill Ferrari.



    This happened to my friend's 997RS. But Porsche is much more likely to pull these kinds of shennanigans than Ferrari.

    Edit: After reading MKSGR it is apparent. A grey market dealer is very likely to do this while a primary dealership will probably value its customers more. Unfortunately the Porsche RS incident with my friend was at a primary dealer.

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:

    I just read about an excellent Ferrari customer in Germany ordering a Scud and twice being told by his delaer there were delays and later found out his car was sold by his dealer for 60,000k over MSRP to someone else. This nonsense will kill Ferrari.



    Not quite correct: the guy you mention ordered a Scuderia at a German grey market dealer - NOT an official Ferrari dealer... Anyway, his story is very sad. He really looked forward to owning this car. You could tell from his posts



    This guy had a wealth of information regarding future Ferrari models which he claimed he obtained from his dealer. A grey market dealer would have that kind of information? I am surprised but thanks for the correction.

    I have increasingly become concerned that Ferrari dealers are unable to resist the bushels of dollars they are being offered for some of these models. Customer loyalty often takes a back seat to huge profits on a very limited production item you are selling.

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Nick,

    I take it you are referring to the guy on F-Chat? Direct quotes from his story: -

    "I have purchased my car from as I was told one of the most reputable and well-known independent exotic car delaers in Germany"

    ...and

    "If everything will be well this time, I will secure "F149" spot for May 2009. I will go on with Ferraris. I have started way to my dream and do not want to stop. Promise."

    My interpretation of that last statement is that the Scuderia would/will be his first F car. If you check out his current cars owned you'll see he doesn't list any Ferrari's.

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    If Ferrari does look to copy Porsche and its sales growth, they must have also realized that the daily (and all season) usability of the 911 has been a huge factor in driving sales. It must drive Nick crazy to hear the knocks against the 360/430 as being unsuitable as a DD, but the street views, rightly or wrongly, see virtually all mid-engined sports cars as compromised from a usability standpoint. Just look at Easy_rider's post re. the idea of trading up from his 997 - immediately lots of Rennteam views that the 430 is not usable enough to justify as a DD (or perhaps as a sole vehicle).

    The Cayman has brought mid-engine feel to a much larger audience while solving much of the storage complaint, and still the sales are not telling P that this is a direction that the mainstream sports buyer wants. So - I think Ferrari has concluded that it will never achieve the sales volumes the brand could generate for an entry level car in a mid-engine layout that "common wisdom" says is not a daily driver car - and the F149 is the result. We talk all the time about performance here (yes, we like driving) but most car purchases at least consider other factors.

    PS; If I am even remotely correct, then:
    1. sales of the Audi R8 will also never approach 911 sales no matter how many they are able to hand-build.

    2. The rumoured mid-engined Aston Martin (or Corvette for that matter) will not happen, as they will decide to keep making money with front engined cars and leave the mid-market to others.

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Aston Martin nixed the mid-engine project because they realized the only way to be profitable was to use the same platform for all models.

    I suspect Ferrari is doing the same: one platform for the entire Ferrari and Maserati line-up. It saves a lot of money. A separate, mid-engine F142 is still possible but would require a much higher price than the F430 to recoup development costs.

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    The Groom said:
    So it confirms the speculation that the F430 is replaced by the F149, and the Scuderia by the F142.



    Why does everybody think the F149 is replacing the 430? Where does it say that? I thought the F149 is intended as an all new model while the 430 evolves down its natural path???


    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    4trac said:
    If Ferrari does look to copy Porsche and its sales growth, they must have also realized that the daily (and all season) usability of the 911 has been a huge factor in driving sales. It must drive Nick crazy to hear the knocks against the 360/430 as being unsuitable as a DD, but the street views, rightly or wrongly, see virtually all mid-engined sports cars as compromised from a usability standpoint. Just look at Easy_rider's post re. the idea of trading up from his 997 - immediately lots of Rennteam views that the 430 is not usable enough to justify as a DD (or perhaps as a sole vehicle).

    The Cayman has brought mid-engine feel to a much larger audience while solving much of the storage complaint, and still the sales are not telling P that this is a direction that the mainstream sports buyer wants. So - I think Ferrari has concluded that it will never achieve the sales volumes the brand could generate for an entry level car in a mid-engine layout that "common wisdom" says is not a daily driver car - and the F149 is the result. We talk all the time about performance here (yes, we like driving) but most car purchases at least consider other factors.

    PS; If I am even remotely correct, then:
    1. sales of the Audi R8 will also never approach 911 sales no matter how many they are able to hand-build.

    2. The rumoured mid-engined Aston Martin (or Corvette for that matter) will not happen, as they will decide to keep making money with front engined cars and leave the mid-market to others.



    I fully agree with everything you said in that post. The F149 is Ferrari's best way of creating a "volume" selling daily driver. It front engined leaving space for a boot, comes with a folding hard top and it has two doors like a traditional Ferrari! Perfect way of increasing revenue without diluting the brand especially when the car will command a high price leaving all those "traditionalists" with nothing to whine about.

    As for the rumored mid engine Aston you can all forget about it. Aston is still completing the process of it's acquisition and already have their hands full with the Rapide which will debut late next year! they simply don't have time or money for an unprofitable mid engine car. Like we have seen they are still milking the DB9 with the DBS and up coming DBS Volante, the DB9 just got facelifted so you can expect it to be the main car in portfolio for the next 3 years.

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    4trac said:
    If Ferrari does look to copy Porsche and its sales growth, they must have also realized that the daily (and all season) usability of the 911 has been a huge factor in driving sales. It must drive Nick crazy to hear the knocks against the 360/430 as being unsuitable as a DD, but the street views, rightly or wrongly, see virtually all mid-engined sports cars as compromised from a usability standpoint. Just look at Easy_rider's post re. the idea of trading up from his 997 - immediately lots of Rennteam views that the 430 is not usable enough to justify as a DD (or perhaps as a sole vehicle).

    The Cayman has brought mid-engine feel to a much larger audience while solving much of the storage complaint, and still the sales are not telling P that this is a direction that the mainstream sports buyer wants. So - I think Ferrari has concluded that it will never achieve the sales volumes the brand could generate for an entry level car in a mid-engine layout that "common wisdom" says is not a daily driver car - and the F149 is the result. We talk all the time about performance here (yes, we like driving) but most car purchases at least consider other factors.

    PS; If I am even remotely correct, then:
    1. sales of the Audi R8 will also never approach 911 sales no matter how many they are able to hand-build.

    2. The rumoured mid-engined Aston Martin (or Corvette for that matter) will not happen, as they will decide to keep making money with front engined cars and leave the mid-market to others.



    You make some good points. However, I do not see high performance cars for daily driving as the wave of the future. If anything, it will be the opposite. I have always felt a daily car should not be high performance but economical, comfortable and safe.

    If Ferrari is headed in the direction I think they are they probably will loss a lot of customer. I use my Ferrari as a retreat, sanctuary, play room etc. and to use everyday greatly diminish the enjoyment of ownership.

    I have cars for daily driving. They are safe comfortable and very utiliatrian. You cannot say that about any sport car.

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Any word on how much its supposed to weigh?

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    My Spider weighs about 3200lbs. The 149 will have a retractable hardtop plus two back seats. I would estimate 3600-3800lbs. The only way they can make it lighter is to make it much smaller and I just don't see that happening if its going to be 2+2.

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Indeed, this is very sad news. The mid engine configuration has elevated the Ferrari lure and prestige. To now change to a front engine baby 599 is insanity. What market are they targeting?

    To add insult to injury the car is priced at about the same price as the 599 at least here in the US.

    I guess I will wait to get more information about the car. Ferrari dealers make their money by reselling used Ferrari's that loyal customers turn in. If the 360/430 owners are unhappy with the 149 they will sell their cars on the open market and go and buy a Gallardo or something else with a mid engine set up.

    Porsche has a great opportunity here. Retool the GT and sell it for about $250,000 and they would have a gold mine.



    A mid-engined car, based on a CGT, with a slightly detuned V10 would certainly hit the spot and eat into Ferrari's sales, provided it is exclusive enough.



    Or a front engine 928 with a V10 + PDK or 6-spd

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    BiTurbo said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Indeed, this is very sad news. The mid engine configuration has elevated the Ferrari lure and prestige. To now change to a front engine baby 599 is insanity. What market are they targeting?

    To add insult to injury the car is priced at about the same price as the 599 at least here in the US.

    I guess I will wait to get more information about the car. Ferrari dealers make their money by reselling used Ferrari's that loyal customers turn in. If the 360/430 owners are unhappy with the 149 they will sell their cars on the open market and go and buy a Gallardo or something else with a mid engine set up.

    Porsche has a great opportunity here. Retool the GT and sell it for about $250,000 and they would have a gold mine.



    A mid-engined car, based on a CGT, with a slightly detuned V10 would certainly hit the spot and eat into Ferrari's sales, provided it is exclusive enough.



    Or a front engine 928 with a V10 + PDK or 6-spd



    928, 2+2, large boot, reliable, V10 twin-turbo, 700 PS... Yes, I think we have a winner !

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    BiTurbo said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Indeed, this is very sad news. The mid engine configuration has elevated the Ferrari lure and prestige. To now change to a front engine baby 599 is insanity. What market are they targeting?

    To add insult to injury the car is priced at about the same price as the 599 at least here in the US.

    I guess I will wait to get more information about the car. Ferrari dealers make their money by reselling used Ferrari's that loyal customers turn in. If the 360/430 owners are unhappy with the 149 they will sell their cars on the open market and go and buy a Gallardo or something else with a mid engine set up.

    Porsche has a great opportunity here. Retool the GT and sell it for about $250,000 and they would have a gold mine.



    A mid-engined car, based on a CGT, with a slightly detuned V10 would certainly hit the spot and eat into Ferrari's sales, provided it is exclusive enough.



    Or a front engine 928 with a V10 + PDK or 6-spd



    928, 2+2, large boot, reliable, V10 twin-turbo, 700 PS... Yes, I think we have a winner !



    Crash, there are guys already living that dream. Supercharged 928's put that power out reliably, w/o turbo lag, good gas mileage, and GT2 performance.

    If only porsche would see the light.

     
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