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    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

     

    Thanks for your kind words. We strive to do our best ;-)

    On your later point, I don't think it could factually be the case. The 991 development was kicked off in 2007. At the time, Porsche was well under way ... to buy VW. Discussing the genesis of styling with Michael Mauer and platform design with Michael Schaetzle, the genesis of the 991 is pretty clear. There is a lot - perhaps excess - of conservatism in styling, it really sounds like Porsche is paranoid to mess with the 911 visual signature and traumatized by the 996 experience. In terms of platform design, everything comes down to assembling the best product for the broad base of target customers. From that standpoint, it's hard to argue that the 911 would be a better product if it carried more of these rugged/idiosyncratic/quirky aspects of older models. It's clear that these are not the genes that they see as being a valuable part of Porsche DNA.


    --

    997 GT3 - 550M - 355 GTS F1 - Prius - Audi S5 Sportback


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    I stand corrected. With the VW merger taking place mid-2009, there wouldn't have been enough time to influence the 991.

    I suppose I wish Porsche placed a bit more value in those idiosyncratic genes :)

     


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Porsche has been, wisely so, consistently improving on " those idiosyncratic genes".  Bottom line is, IMHO, that violent oversteer and light front ends are dangerous to all--including professional drivers.  If you prefer a steering feel more to your taste, then don't get the power plus option. 

    No other manufacturer comes close to Porsche in offering the full range of model (and steering) experiences.  The base 991S is a massive improvement on its own, and anyone can elect many options (up to virtually a track car) to cater to tastes.  That's paying attention to, and improving, the gene pool.


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    I wonder how bad the steering would be if they dialed back the assist?  Since the steering wheel to rack is not mechanically decoupled and the electrical system is there to assist, they conceivably can offer modes which dial this assist back, or disable it altogether (ie, provide a manual steering).  Maybe via the "sport button".


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    SoCal Alan:

    I wonder how bad the steering would be if they dialed back the assist?  Since the steering wheel to rack is not mechanically decoupled and the electrical system is there to assist, they conceivably can offer modes which dial this assist back, or disable it altogether (ie, provide a manual steering).  Maybe via the "sport button".


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk

    While the electric motor could theoretically be turned off, I don't think its presence could be made seamless from the rack.  It would be still be connected with all the gears, etc that it uses to move the rack.  If you've ever turned a large electric motor by hand when it's been turned off, there is quite a bit of friction and cogging.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Interesting review of the base Carrera 7 speed:

    http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/RoadTestsHistory/Porsche-911-3.4-Carrera/261765/


    --

     911 Carrera 3.2 - Cayenne Diesel


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Wonderbar:

    Porsche has been, wisely so, consistently improving on " those idiosyncratic genes".  Bottom line is, IMHO, that violent oversteer and light front ends are dangerous to all--including professional drivers. [..]

    I definitely agree. I am certainly not advocating cars that can kill you on a whim, just so that things can be interesting! A '70's 911 can be scary in the wet but that does not mean it is fun - especially if you are coming home from a long day at the office.

    Also, I definitely don't mean to come across as "whining" about the new car because then the simple answer is "just don't buy it".

    All I am discussing is that, mostly due to the steering but maybe other things as well, the 991 seemed (to me) to possess a notch less of that, addictive, "Porsche feel". I am referring to the combined sensory experience which, although not quantifiable, is clearly present in a Porsche.

    The adoption of this particular steering technology, (which I bet we will not see in important racing for many years to come - not before it is, perhaps, improved) reveals to me a slight shift in direction: pure sports driving experience is now somewhat less important than emission and consumption target-figures.

    I know I am risking eating humble pie here, if we soon hear of electric steering being adopted in motorsport indecision and frankly, I wish that I do. It will mean the system can succeed on the track.

    OTOH, I just read on another forum that this is what McLaren have done with the MP4-12C when faced with the question of using the fully electric option:

    The MP4-12C uses rack-and-pinion steering, and McLaren engineers told me they wanted to use hydraulic power steering for its superior feel. But electric power steering would have helped engine-bay packaging and parasitic power loss by eliminating the belt-driven pump, the belt hardware itself and the need for long hose runs. To get both benefits, McLaren fitted this electric-driven hydraulic pump (black), which feeds the rack directly via short lines (yellow). This, then, is electro-hydraulic or electric-over-hydraulic power steering, and it's the best of both worlds.

    I am only quoting this as indirect proof of the all-electric system's inherent inferiority in terms of feel or feedback and of the insurmountable difficulties involved in programming the software to make up for it.


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Aviator:
    OTOH, I just read on another forum that this is what McLaren have done with the MP4-12C when faced with the question of using the fully electric option:
    The MP4-12C uses rack-and-pinion steering, and McLaren engineers told me they wanted to use hydraulic power steering for its superior feel. But electric power steering would have helped engine-bay packaging and parasitic power loss by eliminating the belt-driven pump, the belt hardware itself and the need for long hose runs. To get both benefits, McLaren fitted this electric-driven hydraulic pump (black), which feeds the rack directly via short lines (yellow). This, then, is electro-hydraulic or electric-over-hydraulic power steering, and it's the best of both worlds.

    I am only quoting this as indirect proof of the all-electric system's inherent inferiority in terms of feel or feedback and of the insurmountable difficulties involved in programming the software to make up for it.

    That actually sounds like the ideal steering pump idea.


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    SoCal Alan:
    Aviator:
    OTOH, I just read on another forum that this is what McLaren have done with the MP4-12C when faced with the question of using the fully electric option:
    The MP4-12C uses rack-and-pinion steering, and McLaren engineers told me they wanted to use hydraulic power steering for its superior feel. But electric power steering would have helped engine-bay packaging and parasitic power loss by eliminating the belt-driven pump, the belt hardware itself and the need for long hose runs. To get both benefits, McLaren fitted this electric-driven hydraulic pump (black), which feeds the rack directly via short lines (yellow). This, then, is electro-hydraulic or electric-over-hydraulic power steering, and it's the best of both worlds.

    I am only quoting this as indirect proof of the all-electric system's inherent inferiority in terms of feel or feedback and of the insurmountable difficulties involved in programming the software to make up for it.

    That actually sounds like the ideal steering pump idea.


    This is the same solution used for the 997 Cup car.  Could have been easily adapted to the 991Smiley


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Grant:
    SoCal Alan:
    Aviator:
    OTOH, I just read on another forum that this is what McLaren have done with the MP4-12C when faced with the question of using the fully electric option:
    The MP4-12C uses rack-and-pinion steering, and McLaren engineers told me they wanted to use hydraulic power steering for its superior feel. But electric power steering would have helped engine-bay packaging and parasitic power loss by eliminating the belt-driven pump, the belt hardware itself and the need for long hose runs. To get both benefits, McLaren fitted this electric-driven hydraulic pump (black), which feeds the rack directly via short lines (yellow). This, then, is electro-hydraulic or electric-over-hydraulic power steering, and it's the best of both worlds.

    I am only quoting this as indirect proof of the all-electric system's inherent inferiority in terms of feel or feedback and of the insurmountable difficulties involved in programming the software to make up for it.

    That actually sounds like the ideal steering pump idea.


    This is the same solution used for the 997 Cup car.  Could have been easily adapted to the 991Smiley


    Damn.


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Wonderbar:

    Porsche has been, wisely so, consistently improving on " those idiosyncratic genes".  Bottom line is, IMHO, that violent oversteer and light front ends are dangerous to all--including professional drivers. 

    The "violent" handling characteristics of the early 911 are grossly exaggerated and experienced by those who provoke them because they don't know how to drive these cars properly (i.e. braking mid-corner, etc.).  My car on the track is extremely predictable and breaks away in a very linear and controllable manner (can be driven at any slip angle consistently without spinning).


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Not going to try to argue the point, Grant.  Let's agree to disagree...Smiley


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Wonderbar:

    Not going to try to argue the point, Grant.  Let's agree to disagree...Smiley

    Fair enoughSmiley  But if you're ever curious to experience it first-hand, you're welcome to come visit me in Denver.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Aviator:
    zeshark:
    Steering feel bothered me during my first day with the car, I completely forgot about it a month later during the second.

    Your reviews are superb! I plan to keep an eye on asphalte.ch from now on.

     

    Agree 100%

    Congratulations Zeshark! Asphalte.ch has been on my fav list for some time now and it is simply the best webzine out there, indepth review of new cars, and some cars!

    Always fair, and you actually weigh the cars! Now that's interesting to compare your numbers with the manufacturers numbers!

    Keep it up please!

     


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Some people are ridiculous. They're are some people complaining that the radio is too good quality and that the 911 is dead all because of the fact that the radio isn't crackly, hissy, and distracting. 

    http://sniffpetrol.com/2012/03/16/new-911-criticised/


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    ‘We are sorry that British car journalists feel this way,’ said Porsche’s head of audio systems, Dr Wolf Teeshirt. ‘I can assure them that the 991 radio installation is of the highest quality and it was tested extensively on Nurburgring FM.’

     OWNED!

    Seriously I don't think this news is real though Smiley

    ...and if they would of been real sportcar enthusiats they would not have tested the radio anyway, I had the car for a whole weekend and the last thing that came to my mind while behind the wheel at any moment was checking out how the radio sounded, I actually have no clue how it sounds 1325269639981rolleyes.gif


    --


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    When drove the car, I didn't listen to the stereo either.  But, when I parked the car I listened to the Burmester system (with official Burmester test CD) and it sounds really excellent - best OEM car audio I've ever heard.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Carrara:

    Some people are ridiculous. They're are some people complaining that the radio is too good quality and that the 911 is dead all because of the fact that the radio isn't crackly, hissy, and distracting. 

    http://sniffpetrol.com/2012/03/16/new-911-criticised/

    Sniffpetrol is not a serious site, it's just to be taken light-hearted.


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Yep, when at his best he's hilarious :).


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Carlos from Spain:

    ‘We are sorry that British car journalists feel this way,’ said Porsche’s head of audio systems, Dr Wolf Teeshirt. ‘I can assure them that the 991 radio installation is of the highest quality and it was tested extensively on Nurburgring FM.’

     OWNED!

    Hahaha, great answer SmileySmiley....from Dr. Teeshirt Smiley


    --

    public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Does anybody know what color this is?


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Looks like Dunkelblaumetallic (dark blue metallic ?)  to me.


    --

    public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Dark Blue Metallic?


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Hell has frozen over, Clarkson like the 991.

    His review from The Sunday Times:

    When I was growing up in the 1960s and 1970s, labour- and time-saving devices were all the rage. The Ronco Buttoneer, for instance, made putting on a button a quick and easy job. Which was just as well because the button you’d just attached often came adrift again in a matter of moments.

    The top-loading washing machine had replaced the front step, and then came the remote control box for the television, which meant we no longer had to sit through Nationwide because we couldn’t be bothered to get off our backsides. We also waved goodbye to the punka wallah with the invention of the Pifco fan. Life was very good.

    But at some point in recent years someone decided to put the complication back. So now, instead of adding boiling water to a spoonful of instant coffee, we have machines that require constant attention. Every single morning mine wants more water, or more beans. Then it wants me to empty its trays and clean its pipes and decalcify its innards. Making a simple cup of coffee has become a 30-minute palaver.

    It’s much the same story with my* mobile phone. Because it turns out that even when you are not using an application, it’s still open, in the background, chewing the battery. And shutting it down is a complex procedure that usually ends up with you taking a photograph of your own nose.

    Televisions are massively complicated now. And gone are the days when you simply loaded a VHS tape and watched a movie. Now, with Blu-ray, the machinery takes 10 minutes to warm up and you have to sit through hours and hours of waivers and copyright threats and trailers.

    My dishwasher is more complex than Apollo 11, my juicer has a 200-page instruction book and have you tried to use a pay-by-phone parking meter? Of course not, or you’d still be out there, in the street, asking yourself what on earth was wrong with putting a pound coin in a little slot.

    Naturally, cars are now very complicated as well. It’s almost certainly true to say that the ignition key for your modern car is more complex than the whole of an Austin A35. Which means, of course, it rarely works. I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve been in a car* that keeps flashing up a message saying, “No key detected,” when I’m sitting there waving the damn thing in front of its dash, whimpering slightly and wondering out loud what was wrong with the old system.

    Then there’s the BMW M5, which can get from 0 to 62mph in about 13 minutes. You spend 12 minutes and 55.7 seconds telling the on-board computer what sort of setting you’d like from the gearbox, the chassis and the engine, and then 4.3 seconds going from 0 to 62.

    You might imagine that the new Porsche 911 had been spared all this nonsense — 911s, after all, are meant to be pure, clean, unfettered sports cars. And there is no place for complexity in such things.

    Well, dream on, because the new 911 is a geek’s fantasy. Every component can be tuned while you’re on the move to deliver something different, and there are now two read-outs on the dash telling you what gear you’re in. Which seems a bit odd in a manual. I know I’m in third. I just moved the lever.

    The thing is, though, this being a Porsche, it’s all very instinctive and commonsensical. Amazingly, since there are no buttons on the steering wheel itself, you don’t have to go into submenus or hold knobs down for two seconds to make stuff happen. I hate to admit it, but I thought it was brilliant. But that’s probably because I never bought the whole 911 sports car thing in the first place.

    There was a lot more I liked as well. The styling may be ludicrously similar to that of the previous model — and the one before that. And the one before that as well. But the little things that have changed have given the new model some nice new curves. You could even call it good-looking.

    The big debate about this new car is its electric steering. Because of European Union rules on emissions, manufacturers are under pressure to introduce systems that use less energy, whether or not they are better at the job. So the conventional hydraulic power-steering setup has been ditched in favour of one that works off the battery.

    In the same way as Neil Young keeps banging on about the awfulness of digital sound compared with vinyl, various 911 purists say that the classic “feel” of a 911 is now gone. And I’d agree with that. But since I’m not a 911 purist, I must say I think the new system is better. For sure, you are getting an artificial sense of how the tyres are interacting with the road and, yes, on a track you can spot this. But for everyday driving, the electric system is meaty and tremendous.

    Emissions regulations have had other effects as well. The engine now shuts down at the lights and Porsche has had to fit a seven-speed gearbox. In theory this is fine. You lope up the motorway at tickover, sipping fuel like a vicar sips sherry. But when you’re in seventh, doing 60mph, you don’t get the twitching and fizzing you expect from a car of this type. It feels a bit puddingy.

    Of course, when you get off the motorway and realise you’re running late and you need to make up some time, it’s not puddingy at all. It’s just delightful. That said, I would opt for the bigger-engined S model. The standard car I drove, while lovely, sometimes didn’t feel as fast as I’d been expecting.

    Now normally when I’ve reviewed 911s in the past, I’d get to this point and say that while the car is jolly clever, it’s not for me. The rear-engined Porsche is like Greece and marzipan and Piers Morgan. Simply not my cup of tea.

    But this one is different. Over the years, the engine has crept forward in the chassis so that it’s no longer slung behind the rear axle waiting to become a giant pendulum. It’s water-cooled, too, these days, which means the Volkswagen air-cooled clatter is gone.

    Inside, the silly buttons that looked like half-sucked boiled sweets and felt about as cheap as an Albanian’s suit have been replaced with good, high-quality items. The driving position is better, the seats are wonderful and though the car is now bigger than ever, it’s still small compared with all its rivals. That’s a good thing.

    Drawbacks? Two, as I see it. The boot’s at the front, which means you get dirty fingers every time you open it; and Porsche has never shaken off the City boy braces-and-Bollinger image it earned in the Eighties. Which means you are never, ever, let out of side turnings.

    Okay. Two and a half. The engine isn’t quite gutsy enough. But go for the S and that’s resolved. In spades. Just avoid the convertibles. Unless you enjoy looking a plonker.

    I’m sure there is much that will disappoint the diehard 911 fan in the new effort. But there is so much to delight those of us who have never liked 911s. I could even see myself buying one. It’s a fab car. Really, really fab. And, all things considered, good value as well.

    PS: Since finishing this piece, I’ve realised the Porsche actually gets no stars at all because it’s useless. Last Sunday the tyre went flat. There is no spare. And no depot carried anything that would fit.

    Recently a friend of mind had a flat tyre in his 911 and it took Porsche two weeks to find a replacement. Unless the manufacturer can address this, there is simply no point buying its cars. Because one day you will need, say, to take your mum to hospital and you will have to phone and cancel.


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Is this a car review?

    More of an exhibitionist's disarray of words and odd metaphors, trying to be entertaining.

    A proof that JC is a joker rather than a car journalist, as if proof was ever needed yes

    He is right about the spare wheel, though.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    dr.j:

    .... I hate to admit it, but I thought it was brilliant. ... the little things that have changed have given the new model some nice new curves. You could even call it good-looking.

    ... But this one is different. Over the years, the engine has crept forward in the chassis so that it’s no longer slung behind the rear axle waiting to become a giant pendulum. It’s water-cooled, too, these days, which means the Volkswagen air-cooled clatter is gone.

    Inside, the silly buttons that looked like half-sucked boiled sweets and felt about as cheap as an Albanian’s suit have been replaced with good, high-quality items. ... The boot’s at the front, which means you get dirty fingers every time you open it; and Porsche has never shaken off the City boy braces-and-Bollinger image it earned in the Eighties. Which means you are never, ever, let out of side turnings.

    ... Just avoid the convertibles. Unless you enjoy looking a plonker.

    ... I could even see myself buying one. ... Porsche actually gets no stars at all because it’s useless. Last Sunday the tyre went flat. There is no spare. And no depot carried anything that would fit.

    Recently a friend of mind had a flat tyre in his 911 and it took Porsche two weeks to find a replacement. Unless the manufacturer can address this, there is simply no point buying its cars.

     It's a typical JC review ... even when he can bring himself to praise a 911, he does so grudgingly ...

    So, JC uses the fact that the wheelbase has been extended to argue that it is no longer a rear-engined car with the engine in the wrong place? It still is.

    And he portrays the water-cooled engine almost as though it is something new compared to the air-cooled engines. Well, he kept on complaining about the 996 and 997 and they were both water-cooled engines.

    He seems to prefer the quality of the switchgear to that of the 997. That was something various people here had differing views on ...

    I cannot remember a single time I have ever got my fingers dirty by opening the boot.

    I have never, ever struggled to exit from side turnings ... I find a 911 gets far more respect than a BMW .. and JC loves the M5. I don't think he knows what he is talking about ... as usual.

    JC's anti-convertible stance is just because he is a middle-aged man who has not looked after himself, his weight, his hair etc ... so no wonder he feels self-conscious in a convertible ... any convertible ... if you drive a convertible, you need to care a bit more about your appearance since you are going to be a bit more noticeable ...

    I agree about the spare tyre ... thank goodness I have never been stranded anywhere without a spare ...

    I can remember JC loved the 997.2 GT3 ... he has a selective memory ...


    --


    997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)


    I can remember JC loved the 997.2 GT3 ... he has a selective memory ...



     

    He also loved the 997.1 S in the original top gear test. Then later he went back to mocking it. I think part of it is just to mess with Hammond. At any rate I found the review fine. It's nice when an old grump like him softens a bit.


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Brilliant as ever.  Funny, controversial, different, thought provoking and well written in his own inimitable style.  And he knows more about cars than anyone on RT as its his job to drive and compare them - and of course that means much of what he says is subjective (when he's not just joking).

     


    --


    Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    On the spare tire issue, would you folks really change a tire on your modern Porsches?  Seems a gigantic and dangerous hassle, given roadside assistance programs like Porsche, AAA, etc. 


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Wonderbar:

    On the spare tire issue, would you folks really change a tire on your modern Porsches?  Seems a gigantic and dangerous hassle, given roadside assistance programs like Porsche, AAA, etc. 

    Last time I changed a tire on a 911 was the 964 with the little inflatable mini spare. It took at least as long as it would have taken AAA to arrive and tow me to the tire shop. So score one for having no spare.

    OTOH, I'm about to blast out of here and drive from Austin to Sundance and back. If I get a flat in halfway from Santa Fe to Moab, I could be sitting there a week ... or paying somebody to transport the car all the way to Salt Lake City. Definitely taking a can of Fix-A-Flat.Smiley

     


    --

    "I don't mean to brag, but I am really good at self-deprecation."


     
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