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    Re: 991.2 R?

    As AP said in one of the GT3 launch interviews, Porsche is in the business of selling cars, and as long as they build exceptional cars that people want, depreciation will not be too bad. Porsche is not however in the business of caring about actual depreciation of the cars they sell. Right now Porsche AG does not benefit by a speculator selling a GT3 RS at 100G over, only the speculator does and if anything, upsets some loyal clients in the process that can't get an allocation. Judging  by this forum (and yours truly) a touring version with rear seats would sell very well so why not make it if that is what your clients want...


    Re: 991.2 R?

    Car manufacturers are not interested in depreciation of their cars. Only we, owners, are. 

    It's silly to think a business like theirs will take this into account. 


    Re: 991.2 R?

    Integra:

    Car manufacturers are not interested in depreciation of their cars. Only we, owners, are. 

    It's silly to think a business like theirs will take this into account. 

    I think they do take it into account to the extent that it affects future sales...


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: 991.2 R?

    Integra:

    Car manufacturers are not interested in depreciation of their cars. Only we, owners, are. 

    It's silly to think a business like theirs will take this into account. 

    You couldn't be more wrong. Depreciation is a significant issue to car manufacturers. It has a direct bearing on sales. Have you asked yourself why Porsche does only evolution styling and performance changes? Why Ferrari bring new models out every five years or so? DEPRECIATION considerations.

    McLaren in order to get sales off the ground started to introduce models more frequently and the result has been a disaster for resale values.


    --

    "A man wrapped up in himself makes for a very small bundle."


    Re: 991.2 R?

    Porsche is not the only brand that does only evolution styling. Look at the Volvo xc60 and Audi q5. Both are bestsellers but haven't been facelifted deeply for many years. But this had zero impact on their prices for second-hand. They still depreciate lightning fast (and painful for the owner). ROI for manufacturers doesn't depend on the second-hand market. 

    I may agree for what happened to McLaren (or any brand), but how does that impact revenue of McLaren? They only make money on newly sold cars. Second-hand is not even their business. 


    Re: 991.2 R?

    Price and production numbers also are relevant.  But I think the incremental approach also works well for sales, independent of depreciation.  Provide enough marginal benefit to encourage new sales, but not so much to make continuous improvement unsustainable.  Furthermore, large leaps every year would also be costly from an R&D perspective.  In short, Porsche makes a good car, milks it, and then moves on. 

    But not everyone can do that.  McLaren on the other hand is just trying to acquire new customers and generate short term revenue with their approach.

     

     


    Re: 991.2 R?

    nberry:
    Integra:

    Car manufacturers are not interested in depreciation of their cars. Only we, owners, are. 

    It's silly to think a business like theirs will take this into account. 

    You couldn't be more wrong. Depreciation is a significant issue to car manufacturers. It has a direct bearing on sales. Have you asked yourself why Porsche does only evolution styling and performance changes? Why Ferrari bring new models out every five years or so? DEPRECIATION considerations.

    McLaren in order to get sales off the ground started to introduce models more frequently and the result has been a disaster for resale values.

    That doesn't hold water when you look at Bentleys, RR, AM, and AMG. Rich people just do give a fuck in the majority of cases.


    Re: 991.2 R?

    nberry:
    Integra:

    Car manufacturers are not interested in depreciation of their cars. Only we, owners, are. 

    It's silly to think a business like theirs will take this into account. 

    You couldn't be more wrong. Depreciation is a significant issue to car manufacturers. It has a direct bearing on sales. Have you asked yourself why Porsche does only evolution styling and performance changes? Why Ferrari bring new models out every five years or so? DEPRECIATION considerations.

    McLaren in order to get sales off the ground started to introduce models more frequently and the result has been a disaster for resale values.

    I fully agree - for me the depreciation is also a key factor in deciding between cars.

    The reliability of Porsche's model strategyis a huge advantage. Just thought yesterday that the last GT2RS was launched 7 (!) years ago. The turbo gets its customary updates in fixed intervals of 3-3.5 years etc. Everything is very reliable. Also, there are many long-term fans for these cars and consequently buyers. 

    As a result, just to mention an example, you can find about 10 (!) 991.2 turbo s cabriolets on mobile.de (for central Europe). At the same time you can find approx. 3.5x as many 488 Spider and more than 5x as many 650s Spider for sale - despite the much smaller customer base for these cars... The 488 Spiders trade at good prices though which points to the fact that Ferrari also has a stable and reliable model policy. If you order the new model early enough (like the successor of the 488 now) you can be sure you don't destroy too much money, even after the market will have come down in some months/years.

    With the 720s I appreciate the new technology and even the design. At the same time I am concerned with their model policy, the limited size of the market for this car, the limited customer base and - consequently - resale values. This car I would only get with a subsidized leasing offer as McLaren had it for the 650s as well. If they take the resale risk I feel fine Smiley


    Re: 991.2 R?

    +1 - the main thing stopping me getting a McLaren is resale value.


    --

    2015 911 GT3, 1964 Type 1


    Re: 991.2 R?

    Integra:

    Car manufacturers are not interested in depreciation of their cars. Only we, owners, are. 

    It's silly to think a business like theirs will take this into account. 

    Actually, this is not exactly true and especially Porsche seems to try to control the depreciation narrative by putting a certain amount of pressure on dealers not to give away their (used) cars for "free". 

    Not controlling the used car market, especially for newer models, can have disastrous consequences. Look at the new R8 and those 24 h Experience models Audi threw on the used car markets. Dealers had access to these cars at special prices and they offered them for huge rebates. These cars are gone now (thanks god Audi reacted...) but the prices have dropped substantially. These 24 h Experience cars ruined the used R8 car market in Germany and I'm not sure it will recover any time soon.

    I doubt however that car manufacturers put limited edition models on the market to raise value of their models. Of course some "really" limited edition models (not only some Porsche Exclusive cars in limited numbers) can raise the value of a certain model line and the brand but in the end, the customers decide.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: 991.2 R?

    Depreciation is always relative the first thing when I buy a car is do I like it or not. You should buy a car for that, later you can see about the value. Buying a car just because you have a good resale value is not so smart, cars will always cost you. True is though that the resale value in Germany is higher compaired the surrounding countries. Both my 911 Cab and R8 I have traded in in Germany (in stead of Belgium) and got good value. On my R8 I lost 60% after 8 years on my 911 24% after 3 years. Yes on a R8 you lose a lot of money when trading in in 3 years, but after 8 years I found the value okay for the R8. The dealer sold my care (with a small up) within 3 weeks.


    Re: 991.2 R?

    JR-550:

    Depreciation is always relative the first thing when I buy a car is do I like it or not. You should buy a car for that, later you can see about the value. Buying a car just because you have a good resale value is not so smart, cars will always cost you. True is though that the resale value in Germany is higher compaired the surrounding countries. Both my 911 Cab and R8 I have traded in in Germany (in stead of Belgium) and got good value. On my R8 I lost 60% after 8 years on my 911 24% after 3 years. Yes on a R8 you lose a lot of money when trading in in 3 years, but after 8 years I found the value okay for the R8. The dealer sold my care (with a small up) within 3 weeks.

    The longer you keep the car, the better the financial part. True. 

    I never bought or leased a car having depreciation in mind. I never cared. Maybe I should have cared (hint: 918 and 911R, since I could have had them) but I'm not in the car business.

    I always get my cars based on a gut feeling and desire. Maybe not the best (cheapest) approach but this is me. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991.2 R?

    MKSGR:

    With the 720s I appreciate the new technology and even the design. At the same time I am concerned with their model policy, the limited size of the market for this car, the limited customer base and - consequently - resale values. This car I would only get with a subsidized leasing offer as McLaren had it for the 650s as well. If they take the resale risk I feel fine Smiley

    They say the 720S has been sold out for the next year and the very positive reviews has just been released. I guess some people realized that the 720S is an entry into the hypercar class at the cost of a supercar. The 488 remains the most emotional execution of a V8 biturbo supercar but the carbon-fiber body and the numbers of the 720S are really something.


    Re: 991.2 R?

    Herbaliser:
    MKSGR:

    With the 720s I appreciate the new technology and even the design. At the same time I am concerned with their model policy, the limited size of the market for this car, the limited customer base and - consequently - resale values. This car I would only get with a subsidized leasing offer as McLaren had it for the 650s as well. If they take the resale risk I feel fine Smiley

    They say the 720S has been sold out for the next year and the very positive reviews has just been released. I guess some people realized that the 720S is an entry into the hypercar class at the cost of a supercar. The 488 remains the most emotional execution of a V8 biturbo supercar but the carbon-fiber body and the numbers of the 720S are really something.

    True. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991.2 R?

    Herbaliser:
    MKSGR:

    With the 720s I appreciate the new technology and even the design. At the same time I am concerned with their model policy, the limited size of the market for this car, the limited customer base and - consequently - resale values. This car I would only get with a subsidized leasing offer as McLaren had it for the 650s as well. If they take the resale risk I feel fine Smiley

    They say the 720S has been sold out for the next year and the very positive reviews has just been released. I guess some people realized that the 720S is an entry into the hypercar class at the cost of a supercar. The 488 remains the most emotional execution of a V8 biturbo supercar but the carbon-fiber body and the numbers of the 720S are really something.

    You mean: sold out for 2017 (with about 1400 orders to date) Smiley I agree, on paper the 720s is a wonderful product Smiley


    Re: 991.2 R?

    I am pretty sure the 720S is a wonderful product in real life as well. I mean c'mon...hypercar performance for 240k? Wow.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991.2 R?

    German magazin Auto, Motor, Sport has some critic points and only gives 4 from 5 stars.


    --

    daily: BMW 430d
    for fun: Porsche Boxster GTS


    Re: 991.2 R?

    acky:

    German magazin Auto, Motor, Sport has some critic points and only gives 4 from 5 stars.

    Which are? Smiley

    I can only see three more or less minor issues: Sound (from the inside, it sounds like crap, from the outside it is OK but not really great), still a bit of understeer if you don't drive a clean line and still a bit of turbo lag (despite the new twin scroll chargers). The lack of a proper sound would be the only thing I would really be worried about, everything else is...how to put it...excusable for a hypercar for supercar money. Smiley

    Looking forward to the 745 LT or whatever model designation the LT will get. Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: 991.2 R?

    RC:

    I am pretty sure the 720S is a wonderful product in real life as well. I mean c'mon...hypercar performance for 240k? Wow.

    What I am thinking about right now is if the (I would expect) 50hp difference to the new GT2RS are really a relevant advantage. The GT2RS will be amazing to drive, probably significantly quicker on the track (based on my gut feeling) but not much slower in the straight line... Tough questions Smiley


    Re: 991.2 R?

    MKSGR:
    RC:

    I am pretty sure the 720S is a wonderful product in real life as well. I mean c'mon...hypercar performance for 240k? Wow.

    What I am thinking about right now is if the (I would expect) 50hp difference to the new GT2RS are really a relevant advantage. The GT2RS will be amazing to drive, probably significantly quicker on the track (based on my gut feeling) but not much slower in the straight line... Tough questions Smiley

    True but the GT2 RS will be "just" another 911 variant, while the 720S is looking like an exotic. 

    Please don't get me wrong: I am pretty sure the GT2 RS is going to be a beast, I heard that Porsche "adjusted" some specs to be able to compete with the latest super sports cars but it is questionable if the performance alone will sell this car. The GT2 RS won't be a very stealthy 911 variant, so people could argue that for similar money, they want to have supercar/hypercar looks as well. Not easy...

    I doubt that the GT2 RS is going to do 0-200 kph below 8 seconds though, more likely around 8.5 seconds from what I heard but you never know...this rumor is a couple of months old and they already "adjusted" the specs twice or so. The GT2 RS "needs" at least 700 hp to be competitive, the rumored 650 hp won't cut it. Porsche knows that.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: 991.2 R?

    RC:
    MKSGR:
    RC:

    I am pretty sure the 720S is a wonderful product in real life as well. I mean c'mon...hypercar performance for 240k? Wow.

    What I am thinking about right now is if the (I would expect) 50hp difference to the new GT2RS are really a relevant advantage. The GT2RS will be amazing to drive, probably significantly quicker on the track (based on my gut feeling) but not much slower in the straight line... Tough questions Smiley

    True but the GT2 RS will be "just" another 911 variant, while the 720S is looking like an exotic. 

    Please don't get me wrong: I am pretty sure the GT2 RS is going to be a beast, I heard that Porsche "adjusted" some specs to be able to compete with the latest super sports cars but it is questionable if the performance alone will sell this car. The GT2 RS won't be a very stealthy 911 variant, so people could argue that for similar money, they want to have supercar/hypercar looks as well. Not easy...

    I doubt that the GT2 RS is going to do 0-200 kph below 8 seconds though, more likely around 8.5 seconds from what I heard but you never know...this rumor is a couple of months old and they already "adjusted" the specs twice or so. The GT2 RS "needs" at least 700 hp to be competitive, the rumored 650 hp won't cut it. Porsche knows that.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     

    My bet for the GT2RS: 670hp Smiley

    One should not forget the practicality of a car... Have you tried to enter these gull-wing cars like the McLaren? Not ideal for daily usage. Also, the fact that the GT2RS will still look like a Porsche (with a bigger wing) is also something good as I like the Porsche design Smiley Another point: the GT2RS will be more desirable/sought after in the medium term as it is produced in much smaller numbers and has a heritage (continuation of the GT2 line). The 720s will be produced in as many numbers as they can sell and will be replaced by an improved / more special version in the shorter term...


    Re: 991.2 R?

    The GT2RS buyer will be very different IMO than the typical 720S buyer...


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: 991.2 R?

    670 hp was the last number I heard, so you could be right. 

    First...700...second...650...now 670...will be interesting. 

    Yes, especially in Germany, a GT2 RS would be more "acceptable" but I think that Porsche knows that McLaren has turned up the heat, so they need to keep up or even better...start to be ahead. Won't be easy though.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991.2 R?

    Carlos from Spain:

    The GT2RS buyer will be very different IMO than the typical 720S buyer...

    Don't be too sure...the GT2 RS buyer isn't exactly the buyer who bought a GT3 or GT3 RS. Many GT2 RS buyers will come from the 991 Turbo S (it happened before).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991.2 R?

    Carlos from Spain:

    The GT2RS buyer will be very different IMO than the typical 720S buyer...

    You probably mean: fatter & less sporty, with problems in fitting through this narrow door Smiley


    Re: 991.2 R?

    MKSGR:
    Carlos from Spain:

    The GT2RS buyer will be very different IMO than the typical 720S buyer...

    You probably mean: fatter & less sporty Smiley

    Smiley 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991.2 R?

    RC:

    670 hp was the last number I heard, so you could be right. 

    First...700...second...650...now 670...will be interesting. 

    Yes, especially in Germany, a GT2 RS would be more "acceptable" but I think that Porsche knows that McLaren has turned up the heat, so they need to keep up or even better...start to be ahead. Won't be easy though.

    I would assume that  for marketing reasons  the flagship GT2 RS should have more than 680 Hp which is the power output of the hybrid Panamera Turbo S. My bet is anything above 680 Hp (imho).


    Re: 991.2 R?

    m4ever:
    RC:

    670 hp was the last number I heard, so you could be right. 

    First...700...second...650...now 670...will be interesting. 

    Yes, especially in Germany, a GT2 RS would be more "acceptable" but I think that Porsche knows that McLaren has turned up the heat, so they need to keep up or even better...start to be ahead. Won't be easy though.

    I would assume that  for marketing reasons  the flagship GT2 RS should have more than 680 Hp which is the power output of the hybrid Panamera Turbo S. My bet is anything above 680 Hp (imho).

    I fully agree with you and I actually think that a 7 needs to be the first digit but Porsche isn't always very logical when it comes to marketing. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991.2 R?

    A contributor on RL stated that the touring package had been confirmed at a GT3 event he attended in Belgium. Reportedly no wing, PDK or MT. Fewer options. 


    --

    "Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill


    Re: 991.2 R?

    Rear seats?


     
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