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    Re: You've talked me out of it

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Quote:
    69bossnine, you have over 140 cars!!! Care to describe?



    My father and I collect american cars, with a focus on low-mileage unrestored examples. 75% of our collection is unrestored. A car with 30,000 original miles would be high-mile in our collection. Many are "in the wrapper", like a '64 Galaxie 500XL 390-4V 4-speed with only 14 miles on it, or a 1968 Torino GT with 8 miles, or a 1963 Chevy Impala SS 409 with 102 miles. And a large number of them are just really low-mile such as a 4,900 mile 1970 Mustang Mach 1, or a 11,000 mile 1967 Buick Riviera, or a 3,800 mile 1968 Lincoln Continental Mark III, or a 14,000 mile 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville. Pretty much all wonderful, good old American iron!! A 1911 White Touring is the oldest, and we've got alot of speculative newer cars hanging out, like my 506 h.p. '97 Saleen S351 Speedster, and 1995 and 1993 Cobra R models, 1996 Impala SS, etc...

    I've got THREE, count 'em, THREE "imports" LOL!!! (not counting my 997 ) a fully optioned-out 17,000 mile 1993 Dodge Stealth Twin Turbo (really a Mitsubishi), a 1990 Chrysler/Maserati TC (A lousy car, but it's only got 6,000 miles, one of 500 Maser-powered built, #498 to be exact. The last three built were the only triple black cars built, our car #498 was built for Henry Carlini, who was the head of Chrysler's Performance group at the time, #499 still belongs to Lee Iacocca, and #500 resides in the Chrysler museum), and a 1979 Porsche 928 5-speed with 6,600 miles.

    My favorite is the basis for my username, my 28,000 original mile Raven Black 1969 Mustang Boss 429. Thank God I bought it back in 1997 when the prices were relatively low, as they've gone through the roof lately, with another black '69 like mine selling at auction for $256K three months ago!! American muscle car values are absolutely silly right now.



    You're the man, respect!!!

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    Quote:
    Later Porsche acknowledged the 996 was only a transitional vehicle and deviated from the true spirit of the 911.The 997 is the true 911. WTF?????




    When and where did Porsche say that Nick?
    Do you have a copy of the article please?
    It would indeed be outrageous. I've never heard that before but would be extremely disappointed.



    Francoise, the retired head engineer for the 996 acknowledged that the 996 was cobbled together to deal with cost issue and deviated from the usual hardcore driveability of the 911. He claimed because Porsche got over the financial hump the 997 was more in the spirit of the Porsche 911.





    Getting OT here,
    Please don't take this personally Nick, you're not the only one. Rossi, Zz, etc. have also made the mistake.
    If you want to use my real name (I'd prefer my username though on the forum) it's Francois!!!
    No S, Francoise is the chick's name in France.
    I hope all Francophones feel my pain here.
    I know my car is a Cabriolet, but I promise you, I am not gay! Ask Ron!

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Carlos the 997TT will no doubt be an excellent performer and may even outperform the 430. So what? They will be produced en mass and if I wanted one I could have it by flashing two nickels to any Porsche sales person. However, once I have it what am I going to do with it? It will look like every other Porsche and drop like a rock in value as did the 996 TT.



    That was great! what are you going to do with it?? DRIVE THE HELL OUT OF IT! not just show it off! who cares if they produce twice as many more 997TT's than F430s, how is that affect your driving enjoyment, what are sportcars made for!!
    Drive which ever gives you more pleasure to drive sportly, wether the F430 or the 997TT, both are great sportcars, but you are wasting your time using that mass production argument in a sportcar enthusiast forum please, maybe in a pret a porter fashion forum for ladies but not here...

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Carlos the 997TT will no doubt be an excellent performer and may even outperform the 430. So what? They will be produced en mass and if I wanted one I could have it by flashing two nickels to any Porsche sales person. However, once I have it what am I going to do with it? It will look like every other Porsche and drop like a rock in value as did the 996 TT.



    That was great! what are you going to do with it?? DRIVE THE HELL OUT OF IT! not just show it off! who cares if they produce twice as many more 997TT's than F430s, how is that affect your driving enjoyment, what are sportcars made for!!
    Drive which ever gives you more pleasure to drive sportly, wether the F430 or the 997TT, both are great sportcars, but you are wasting your time using that mass production argument in a sportcar enthusiast forum please, maybe in a pret a porter fashion forum for ladies but not here...




    "pret a porter fashion" is funny comment

    yes, all of Nicks comments about Porsche "non exclusivity" and "mass production" are wearing thin, like Jessica Simpson complaining that the wrong M&Ms are in her dressing room.....

    So Nick we ask you to at least approach your anti Porsche crusade differently! Stick to engineering controversies like oil scavenging rates,PPI per HP,clutch life and brake replacement costs

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    Look at the common needed cam variators fix for Ferrari 360s. Mechanics laugh at the factory fix method which is to fix in situ, where you need to twist the entire cam to 300 ft lbs to undo a loctited end cap . The TSB needed cam lockdown tool breaks all the time ( never mind the unknown metal fatigue through the long axis of the cam ) and is flimsily built and is occas back ordered. Mechanics have many of their own special tools made to spec as some of the Ferrari factory ones are so poorly made.
    Ferrari 355s all have valve guide wear and header burn- through as almost " wear items " if you look at Ferrari's take on it.
    You pays your money and you takes your chances on ANYTHING mechanical .

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    Quote:
    MKW said:
    Look at the common needed cam variators fix for Ferrari 360s. Mechanics laugh at the factory fix method which is to fix in situ, where you need to twist the entire cam to 300 ft lbs to undo a loctited end cap . The TSB needed cam lockdown tool breaks all the time ( never mind the unknown metal fatigue through the long axis of the cam ) and is flimsily built and is occas back ordered. Mechanics have many of their own special tools made to spec as some of the Ferrari factory ones are so poorly made.
    Ferrari 355s all have valve guide wear and header burn- through as almost " wear items " if you look at Ferrari's take on it.
    You pays your money and you takes your chances on ANYTHING mechanical .



    You might as well have included the not uncommon poor leak down test results on 355's and 360's with very low miles.

    But hey, a Ferrari is not a '60's Dodge Dart with a
    slant six!

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    Quote:

    Carlos the 997TT will no doubt be an excellent performer and may even outperform the 430. So what? They will be produced en mass and if I wanted one I could have it by flashing two nickels to any Porsche sales person. However, once I have it what am I going to do with it? It will look like every other Porsche and drop like a rock in value as did the 996 TT.



    go ahead buy the limited F430 but If you see the mass production that turbo or turbo S writtin on its back you better pretend to be tired or not in the mood for racing , then you can do this ->

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    well are we gone a little off topic?

    anotherstranger, what was the ammount of your deposit and will you finally loose it?

    Your opinion,is more than respected,at least from me, BUT i think you use your arguments in the wrong Brand.

    -Porsche is well known as a very reliable car.
    -Porsche has proven to be a very reliable car
    -The maintance costs are little higher that BMW and much less than a Ferrari
    -Maserati and Esprit are much much more unreliable cars.

    Think of these, and if it is to loose you pre-payment deposit,then buy the damn car and think that you saved the money that you would loose from loosing your deposit

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    You must be foolish to think porsche is not reliable... I had 3 already 965, 993targa , 996 cabrio and no probs at all...
    My 997S cabrio is going to be delivered in 3 weeks and I expect no problems at aLL... And when there are some starting up problems, they will be solved by the dealer, i'm sure about that.That's the risk of buying a brand new car... In 6 months problems, if there are any, will be solved i'm sure

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    nberry,

    I completely understand your passion for Ferrari. However, when you relent to the prowess and aesthetic's of the 911 and cherish both Ferrari and Porsche AT THE SAME TIME, holding them tight to your bosom,,,,, loving them BOTH as your own children, giving up your destain for Porsche will your tortured soul truely be free....... Do this nberry and you will feel enlightened... The power of the road and track God will be yours for all eternity..........


    Re: You've talked me out of it

    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Quote:
    69bossnine, you have over 140 cars!!! Care to describe?



    My father and I collect american cars, with a focus on low-mileage unrestored examples. 75% of our collection is unrestored. A car with 30,000 original miles would be high-mile in our collection. Many are "in the wrapper", like a '64 Galaxie 500XL 390-4V 4-speed with only 14 miles on it, or a 1968 Torino GT with 8 miles, or a 1963 Chevy Impala SS 409 with 102 miles. And a large number of them are just really low-mile such as a 4,900 mile 1970 Mustang Mach 1, or a 11,000 mile 1967 Buick Riviera, or a 3,800 mile 1968 Lincoln Continental Mark III, or a 14,000 mile 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville. Pretty much all wonderful, good old American iron!! A 1911 White Touring is the oldest, and we've got alot of speculative newer cars hanging out, like my 506 h.p. '97 Saleen S351 Speedster, and 1995 and 1993 Cobra R models, 1996 Impala SS, etc...

    I've got THREE, count 'em, THREE "imports" LOL!!! (not counting my 997 ) a fully optioned-out 17,000 mile 1993 Dodge Stealth Twin Turbo (really a Mitsubishi), a 1990 Chrysler/Maserati TC (A lousy car, but it's only got 6,000 miles, one of 500 Maser-powered built, #498 to be exact. The last three built were the only triple black cars built, our car #498 was built for Henry Carlini, who was the head of Chrysler's Performance group at the time, #499 still belongs to Lee Iacocca, and #500 resides in the Chrysler museum), and a 1979 Porsche 928 5-speed with 6,600 miles.

    My favorite is the basis for my username, my 28,000 original mile Raven Black 1969 Mustang Boss 429. Thank God I bought it back in 1997 when the prices were relatively low, as they've gone through the roof lately, with another black '69 like mine selling at auction for $256K three months ago!! American muscle car values are absolutely silly right now.



    You're the man, respect!!!






    69bossnine had a picture in a few days back of his 'two angry americans' - Loved that description of his Mustangs and you could see a garage filled with eye candy auto's.

    69bossnine- Maybe you can put that pic in again ?

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    Quote:
    Dilinger said:-The maintance costs are little higher that BMW...

    Think of these, and if it is to loose you pre-payment deposit,then buy the damn car and think that you saved the money that you would loose from loosing your deposit



    BMW has free maintenance (EVERYTHING but tires - ie: brakes, windshield wipers, battery, etc all included) for the first 3 year/36k miles (it may even be 4 year/50k now). so i'd say maintainence on a BMW is substantially less (ie: free). however, my experience is that you get what you pay for under this program of free service. further, your car can sit way longer than necessary sometimes in there while they take care of higher margin repairs in front of you.

    not sure why it would be suggested he just buy the car instead of losing the deposit given his sales tax is likely more than his deposit.

    I LOVE MY 997S

    OK I had ONE issue - airbag light - it's fixed now and I would have rather put a sticker over the light than be without the car !!

    I LOVE THE CAR and post issues with it more to find answers than out of frustration. I had a 996 for FOUR YEARS with only MINOR issues that were fixed QUICKLY and both times the car was in the shop I missed the hell out of having it !! I did the maintenance on the car myself which was very easy and not that expensive!!

    LOVE THE CAR !!!

    I vote you change your mind and buy one... I'm not going to try to tell you I respect your opinion blah blah blah... go get one !! THE CAR KICKS A$$ !!!

    RR4 that was a LAME comment - what we don't need is

    ... comments like THAT. Let him make his decision and be happy. Why be an A$$ ???

    Re: I LOVE MY 997S

    For good people, who think Ferrari is an "investiment," checkout this quote from the Ferrari section of this website: "Nick, My pads were gone after 5K miles, my clutch was gone after 7K (F1 tranny, covered under warranty)."

    Good grief! How pathetic. What kind of investiment sucks your wallet dry like that!? Not a 911.

    Or how about this Ferrari quote: "The F1 clutch will last around 20,000 in traffic and 30,000 highway." Dude, my 1st oil change will be in 20k miles! Ouch! Now go checkout the parts and labor costs for an F1 clutch (try not to puke). Sounds like whatever you think you "save" after driving a Ferrari off the lot is gone anyway because of either poor reliability or not very durable parts. Unless that situation changes I doubt I would ever want a Ferrari. What an eye opener!!!

    Re: I LOVE MY 997S

    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    For good people, who think Ferrari is an "investiment," checkout this quote from the Ferrari section of this website: "Nick, My pads were gone after 5K miles, my clutch was gone after 7K (F1 tranny, covered under warranty)."

    Good grief! How pathetic. What kind of investiment sucks your wallet dry like that!? Not a 911.

    Or how about this Ferrari quote: "The F1 clutch will last around 20,000 in traffic and 30,000 highway." Dude, my 1st oil change will be in 20k miles! Ouch! Now go checkout the parts and labor costs for an F1 clutch (try not to puke). Sounds like whatever you think you "save" after driving a Ferrari off the lot is gone anyway because of either poor reliability or not very durable parts. Unless that situation changes I doubt I would ever want a Ferrari. What an eye opener!!!




    This car has seen quite a bit of track time and Malibu mountain carving:

    watt
    Veteran


    Reged: Fri
    Posts: 354
    Loc: Malibu Stradale mileage report 8900 miles
    #87060 - Wed Mar 23 2005 09:29 PM

    went in early [not at 10,000]. the CS is proving bulletproof "like a Porsche" and very mild on consumables.

    - 6% clutch wear at 8900 miles. Service mgr says not unuusual for him to see 50% wear in his 360 pool
    - 20% pad wear on first set of brake pads
    - rotors perfect


    all Strads need is oil and brake fluid changes!!!! "Like a rock", or is it "no substitute"?

    --------------------
    Challenge Stradale, Argento -- a Lightning Bolt from the Hand of God

    Re: I LOVE MY 997S

    Sorry, Watt. That I didn't know. I take it back.

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    Leong, that's the the best photo i 've seen on this forum. Well done!!!

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Quote:
    Dilinger said:-The maintance costs are little higher that BMW...

    Think of these, and if it is to loose you pre-payment deposit,then buy the damn car and think that you saved the money that you would loose from loosing your deposit



    BMW has free maintenance (EVERYTHING but tires - ie: brakes, windshield wipers, battery, etc all included) for the first 3 year/36k miles (it may even be 4 year/50k now). so i'd say maintainence on a BMW is substantially less (ie: free). however, my experience is that you get what you pay for under this program of free service. further, your car can sit way longer than necessary sometimes in there while they take care of higher margin repairs in front of you.

    not sure why it would be suggested he just buy the car instead of losing the deposit given his sales tax is likely more than his deposit.



    Ben this is not the case with BMW in Greece, they just offer 2 years warranty but disposable issues like brake pads,etc from usage are charged accordsingly, only fault items are replaced.

    Could you also please specify
    "further, your car can sit way longer than necessary sometimes in there while they take care of higher margin repairs in front of you." What do you mean with that?

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    Dear Anotheruser,

    OK, You're reasonable enough not to buy a maybe unreliable, certainly expensive, certainly uncomfortable, and certainly exciting car! But you're sad too, as it seems in your posts...
    It's a game, mon vieux.
    If you don't play you'll never loose,...and never win.
    Anyway, that's my 2 Euro opinion, as they say here...

    Certified FDP (first degree post)

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    i agree cartouche, moreover his statements are sound but not for Porsche ,for another manufacturer maybe!

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    Quote:
    Dilinger said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Quote:
    Dilinger said:-The maintance costs are little higher that BMW...

    Think of these, and if it is to loose you pre-payment deposit,then buy the damn car and think that you saved the money that you would loose from loosing your deposit



    BMW has free maintenance (EVERYTHING but tires - ie: brakes, windshield wipers, battery, etc all included) for the first 3 year/36k miles (it may even be 4 year/50k now). so i'd say maintainence on a BMW is substantially less (ie: free). however, my experience is that you get what you pay for under this program of free service. further, your car can sit way longer than necessary sometimes in there while they take care of higher margin repairs in front of you.

    not sure why it would be suggested he just buy the car instead of losing the deposit given his sales tax is likely more than his deposit.



    Ben this is not the case with BMW in Greece, they just offer 2 years warranty but disposable issues like brake pads,etc from usage are charged accordsingly, only fault items are replaced.

    Could you also please specify
    "further, your car can sit way longer than necessary sometimes in there while they take care of higher margin repairs in front of you." What do you mean with that?



    sorry about the nationalistic perspective re: my assumptions re: bmw maintenance.

    yes, i don't think the bmw service depts get the same $ for maintenance/hr they do for repairs paid for by customers (hence a covered maintenance car can be put behind the higher margin work). i've had "appointments" for such free maintenance service and had the car be there for more than a full day before work even commenced! in fact, i'm not certain they even get as much as they do for warranty repairs.

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    Quote:
    i've had "appointments" for such free maintenance service and had the car be there for more than a full day before work even commenced! in fact, i'm not certain they even get as much as they do for warranty repairs.




    This obviously varies a great deal, depending on the dealer. My initial service experience with my wife's 2001 X-5 was good, better than the local Porsche dealer. I couldn't tell any difference between warranty and service work. It was all done promptly and it was free. And the X-5 initially had an enormous amount of warranty work, a really startling number of hard to diagnois problem areas.

    Then United Auto Group bought the local BMW dealership and what was already good service turned into excellent service. Now they sometimes fix things while we wait, if that's possible. Service is just amazingly good. My wife often says she would not put up with the number of problems the X-5 has had if it wern't for the outstanding performance of the X-5 and the amazing service of the dealer. She rarely has to wait more than a day for major service, sometimes same day, and always gets an X-5 loaner. I think she is now sold on BMW's for life.

    For my car, I just have the amazing performance of the Cayenne to balance this equation. The Porsche dealer service is OK, better than an American manufacturers dealership, but nowhere near the level of our BMW dealer. Plus, I have to pay out the nose for maintenance work.

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    Quote:
    GM Austin said:
    Quote:
    i've had "appointments" for such free maintenance service and had the car be there for more than a full day before work even commenced! in fact, i'm not certain they even get as much as they do for warranty repairs.




    This obviously varies a great deal, depending on the dealer. My initial service experience with my wife's 2001 X-5 was good, better than the local Porsche dealer. I couldn't tell any difference between warranty and service work. It was all done promptly and it was free. And the X-5 initially had an enormous amount of warranty work, a really startling number of hard to diagnois problem areas.

    Then United Auto Group bought the local BMW dealership and what was already good service turned into excellent service. Now they sometimes fix things while we wait, if that's possible. Service is just amazingly good. My wife often says she would not put up with the number of problems the X-5 has had if it wern't for the outstanding performance of the X-5 and the amazing service of the dealer. She rarely has to wait more than a day for major service, sometimes same day, and always gets an X-5 loaner. I think she is now sold on BMW's for life.

    For my car, I just have the amazing performance of the Cayenne to balance this equation. The Porsche dealer service is OK, better than an American manufacturers dealership, but nowhere near the level of our BMW dealer. Plus, I have to pay out the nose for maintenance work.


    I think its the attitude of the dealer. In the Los Angeles area, there are numerous dealers (maybe 20?) to choose from and they are ranked for service in this area. The dealer where I got my BMW consistently ranked in the top 2 for service and their service was very very good.

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    BIG MISTAKE! Let me explain: my 997 Carrera S has now around 9000 km, it is one of the first cars built (march/april 2004) and it is to my knowledge one of the first cars which got into private hands after the introduction in early summer 2004.
    Reliability problems so far? None. No RMS issue (which is very seldom on the 997 compared to the 996), no blown engine (and I doubt that many people drive this car as hard as I do), no other issues except a renewed clutch (there was a strange and very rare whistling noise and I insisted on the new clutch ) and a sometimes difficult to operate first gear (which might be related to the clutch thing).
    This car is the most reliable 911 AND overall car I ever owned and I just love it.

    The RMS situation is completely out of control? Sorry but this is NOT true. My dealer had NO RMS issue up til now and he sold dozens of cars, I also don't know of any friends, relatives or people I personally know who had RMS issues with their 997. Leaks? Ask your local Mercedes dealer about them, our ML55 had to be fixed twice because of nice oil spots on the ground.

    Driving experience? Have you ever wondered why the 911 is THAT succesful? Drive a 997 Carrera S for a day or a weekend and you'll understand. The steering, the suspension, body roll, traction, etc., these are things you won't find on any other car in the world with the exception of a few for big money or with almost non-existant comfort.

    Porsche quality has improved substantially over the past few years, I followed their advances very carefully.
    Of course this quality improvement comes at a price: Porsche cars aren't that seldom anymore on the street, they're pretty close to mass production.

    I just decided to get a Boxster S for my wife, this should say a lot about my confidence in Porsche quality.

    Yes, this is the first year of production and a lot of issues can rise up. But this happens with all car manufacturers. And another thing you shouldn't forget: the internet is mostly anonymous, a lot of reported problems aren't actually problems or are untrue. We already deleted two Users who evidently made false statements about fictious problems they had with their non-existant cars.
    And of course people join internet forums to discuss issues, only a few come to share their happiness or satisfaction, you should bear this in mind too.

    You're missing an opportunity to drive one of the world's best sportscars and enjoy all the fun which comes with it.
    But of course it is YOUR money.

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    RC, you know just how to put it. My sentiments exactly only put much more politely!
    Chris

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    Quote:
    RC said:

    Driving experience? Have you ever wondered why the 911 is THAT succesful? Drive a 997 Carrera S for a day or a weekend and you'll understand.



    Spot on. I never liked 911's until I drove a Carrera S (because I'd never driven one until then) and I was totally amazed. The last truly fast car I drove was a Ferrari 355 and whilst that was a real treat I didn't come away with the same degree of respect for it. The Ferrari was a "toy" and the Porsche a "tool", if you understand my meaning. And I am as impressed with my Boxster S as I was the Carrera, well nearly, anyway! And it's the first car ever I haven't had to take back because something wasn't quite right. Even the collection experience was faultless.
    A Honda S2000? A piece of junk compared with the Boxster, and it isn't that much cheaper than a 2.7. AND I had far more faults in the first few miles, blown HID headlights, uncharacteristically stiff gearbox, stupid soft top cover that was so difficult to put on it stayed off the car, an engine that had no power at all under 5,000 rpm and would only run on 98 octane fuel without pinking and no stowage room at all. It actually felt like a soft top Civic in normal driving, not what I bought a sports car for. The Boxster feels special all the time, at any speed.

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    think we all proved the point that Porsche is a good buy.(if you got the cash).

    Its his personal desicion to choose.

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    Quote:
    dreamcar said:
    an engine that had no power at all under 5,000 rpm and would only run on 98 octane fuel without pinking and no stowage room at all. It actually felt like a soft top Civic in normal driving, not what I bought a sports car for. The Boxster feels special all the time, at any speed.



    Porsches have torque, the S2000 has none (whatsoever!!)

    Re: You've talked me out of it

    but S2000 has nothing to do with a carrera! for God's shake

     
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