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    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    Nick, nick, nick, 1965...
    Great year, that was the last time Ferrari won Le Mans... Le Mans has been the single road race where most manufacturers have tried to win and some have except for Ferrari, who has not won at Le Mans for forty years!



    Have you heard of the Care Racing/Prodrive 550s? They were not factory supported, but they're still Ferraris. 2003 was not that long ago...

    Greg A

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Just put Tom Kristensen in the car.
    He can probably beat the Enzo on Le Mans...in a Yugo

    Sorry, we Danes don't have many motorsport personalities to be proud of, but this guy kicks butt.

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Quote:
    NeverLift said:
    In the 6+ past years Porsche 911GT3s have been spanking Ferrari's 360s in sportscar racing.



    Oh, I didn't know those were Porsche factory teams.



    Technically they haven't been Factory teams. Although you have factory made race cars supported by the race dept. You have top teams getting factory drivers and engineers. Case in point Alex Job racing lost their privateer status because they had so much factory help. So even though the Porsche factory hasn't raced since 98, the race dept is still winning. Soon they'll do it in the higher classes.

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    nberry said:

    Hmnn, I am a sap? I buy one of the world best sport cars coveted by 99% of sport car enthusiasts. I drive it for as long as I want and turn around a sell it for more than what I paid for it.




    In Europe you would make a loss. The stable prices in the US are due to the weak dollar not due to the strong demand for Ferraris Simple economcis.

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Quote:
    NeverLift said:
    In the 6+ past years Porsche 911GT3s have been spanking Ferrari's 360s in sportscar racing.



    Oh, I didn't know those were Porsche factory teams.



    Ben,
    Isn't that the whole point though?
    I mean they were not even factory teams but still kicked ass.

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:

    I'm not denigrating Top Gear, I'm just pointing out its just an "show" that is more oriented on entertainment that on being empirical abourt their info. Its very funny and entertaining but I hope no one takes then seriuosly for a source for info. If you have been following the show these years you will know how they conduct their tests and how they focus their stories. There is not "one" stig that tests all cars, the tests are not conducted under the same conditions, some days its raining some days is hot, the airport field they use can hardly be called a track, etc... its just for fun and entertainent.

    Yet you denigrate the source I posted but take Top Gear seriously? let me tell you that in that true test, each car had its own factory team to oversee that the cars were in OK shape during the test and that the test was fair, all the cars were tested the same day and under the same conditions, and all with the same driver. In the handling track, the CGT pulled 1 second per lap over the ENZO, but let me say this can't be extrapolated to the nurburgring BTW since it was a tight smooth track that has nothing to do with the ring. The reason I pulled it out is because its the only real handling comparison I'm aware of between the CGT and Enzo.



    I understand weather affects driving conditons. From what I saw, it looks like both cars were driven under same condition. So, I'll stick with my prediction time of 7:24.37.

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    Jean said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Quote:
    NeverLift said:
    In the 6+ past years Porsche 911GT3s have been spanking Ferrari's 360s in sportscar racing.



    Oh, I didn't know those were Porsche factory teams.



    Ben,
    Isn't that the whole point though?
    I mean they were not even factory teams but still kicked ass.



    I'm not sure I get it. How does someone other than the factory winning say something positive about the factory and their ability to win?

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    teflon said:
    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    Nick, nick, nick, 1965...
    Great year, that was the last time Ferrari won Le Mans... Le Mans has been the single road race where most manufacturers have tried to win and some have except for Ferrari, who has not won at Le Mans for forty years!



    Have you heard of the Care Racing/Prodrive 550s? They were not factory supported, but they're still Ferraris. 2003 was not that long ago...

    Greg A


    I was talking about the top class/overall winner with a factory-backed team. Even Porsche GT3s are still racing at Le Mans but not in the top class. And neither Porsche or Ferrari has had a factory-backed team there in a long time. The last time Porsche won was 1999 and Ferrari was 1965.

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    Quote:
    teflon said:
    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    Nick, nick, nick, 1965...
    Great year, that was the last time Ferrari won Le Mans... Le Mans has been the single road race where most manufacturers have tried to win and some have except for Ferrari, who has not won at Le Mans for forty years!



    Have you heard of the Care Racing/Prodrive 550s? They were not factory supported, but they're still Ferraris. 2003 was not that long ago...

    Greg A


    I was talking about the top class/overall winner with a factory-backed team. Even Porsche GT3s are still racing at Le Mans but not in the top class. And neither Porsche or Ferrari has had a factory-backed team there in a long time. The last time Porsche won was 1999 and Ferrari was 1965.



    I think it was 1998 for Porsche Vtrader, but I'm not sure, with the 911 GT1! What a great car!!!

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Ferrari and cheating?

    Isn't Ferrari from Italy? ... the country which invented cheating

    Sooner or later, reality catches up with you - so if a customer Enzo car then posted a NS time much slower than the facotry car then you have the answer....

    The best thing to do, test a customer Enzo vs a customer CGT on the same day and there will be peace and quite once the flying lap is done....

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    vtrader,

    Fanch is right, it was '98.

    Ultimately, I don't see how it makes a bit of difference. Please explain it to me. I wonder if your explanation will include Ferrari's artificially limited production numbers. If it does, keep in mind that Ferrari sold all of the ~1349 F40s produced while, at the same time, Porsche struggled to sell, what, 200 959s?

    Porsche won OA at Le Mans in '98 and they are having trouble selling the entire production run of CGTs.

    As you said, Ferrari hasn't won OA since the 60s but they sold every F40, F50 and Enzo produced.

    Greg A

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    Jonas Ribbelov said:
    Ferrari and cheating?

    Isn't Ferrari from Italy? ... the country which invented cheating




    This statement sounds offense to itialian.

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    Jonas Ribbelov said:
    Ferrari and cheating?

    Isn't Ferrari from Italy? ... the country which invented cheating




    Careful, it is the country that invented the mafia!

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    teflon said:
    keep in mind that Ferrari sold all of the ~1349 F40s produced while, at the same time, Porsche struggled to sell, what, 200 959s?
    Greg A



    You have to remember though that at the time the F40 came out, there were MANY Ferrari speculators who didn't really care about the car itself - it was purely for the profit they could earn. We all know how that turned out. I also remember hearing many stories from genuine F car enthusiasts and investors alike who were pissed at Ferrari for increasing production on the supposedly limited F40 which didn't do much to help the speculators. The speculation boom also caused Ferrari to introduce a factory lease program for the F50 so that no one could actually own, and therefore sell or flip, the F50 when it came out.

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    Jeff (in SF) said:
    Quote:
    teflon said:
    keep in mind that Ferrari sold all of the ~1349 F40s produced while, at the same time, Porsche struggled to sell, what, 200 959s?
    Greg A



    You have to remember though that at the time the F40 came out, there were MANY Ferrari speculators who didn't really care about the car itself - it was purely for the profit they could earn. We all know how that turned out. I also remember hearing many stories from genuine F car enthusiasts and investors alike who were pissed at Ferrari for increasing production on the supposedly limited F40 which didn't do much to help the speculators. The speculation boom also caused Ferrari to introduce a factory lease program for the F50 so that no one could actually own, and therefore sell or flip, the F50 when it came out.



    And there weren't "MANY" speculators in the CGT? Heck, one of the S. Cal Pcar dealers is actually forgoing all of the $50k deposits they put up for 8 CGT allocations for which they had no customers! (same dealer that turned down $700k offers for their first CGT before finally having to sell it at MSRP - they're doing the same thing with their first SLR!). It was this deposit speculation by the dealers and speculators which led Porsche to think they could make 50 to 75% more CGTs than they'll actually be able to sell anywhere near MSRP. Oh yeah, and Porsche increased production to 1500 over earlier estimates as well - along with the price by $100k+.

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    iia said:
    Quote:
    Jonas Ribbelov said:
    Ferrari and cheating?

    Isn't Ferrari from Italy? ... the country which invented cheating




    This statement sounds offense to itialian.



    Well, I know some Italians who are actually proud of their "cleverness". But to be honest: we Germans learned fast, we can cheat too.
    What about Americans, lots of them have italian ancestors?

    But to be serious: don't take it too serious.

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    iia said:
    Quote:
    Jonas Ribbelov said:
    Ferrari and cheating?

    Isn't Ferrari from Italy? ... the country which invented cheating






    But to be honest: we Germans learned fast, we can cheat too.



    You mean like the "integrated dry sump" on the window sticker of 996/7s?

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:

    (same dealer that turned down $700k offers for their first CGT before finally having to sell it at MSRP - they're doing the same thing with their first SLR!).




    Doh!

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    Jonas Ribbelov said:
    Ferrari and cheating?

    Isn't Ferrari from Italy? ... the country which invented cheating



    Isn't Sweden the country that invented IKEA (the ultimate scam), crackers that look and taste like wood, Volvos (!!)... and Stefan Johansson? Any discussion about speed should end right there!

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    teflon said:
    vtrader,

    Fanch is right, it was '98.

    Ultimately, I don't see how it makes a bit of difference. Please explain it to me. I wonder if your explanation will include Ferrari's artificially limited production numbers. If it does, keep in mind that Ferrari sold all of the ~1349 F40s produced while, at the same time, Porsche struggled to sell, what, 200 959s?

    Porsche won OA at Le Mans in '98 and they are having trouble selling the entire production run of CGTs.

    As you said, Ferrari hasn't won OA since the 60s but they sold every F40, F50 and Enzo produced.

    Greg A



    Greg, this all started from a comment that Nick said earlier:

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Carlos there is a venue where all car manufacturers can set up their cars as they like to compete. It is called Formula One racing. Oops I forgot Porsche does not like to compete in any race events where engineering really matters.

    Better to dope the public and live off your pass laurels. Why not, the sap's continue to buy their cars.



    All I was doing was pointing out to Nick is that Ferrari switched over to Formula One when they were first defeated by Ford and then Porsche at Le Mans. IMHO, Le Mans race cars have more in common with street cars than a Formula One car. And more manufacturers compete at Le Mans than at Formula One. And reliability and engineering are more important for a LeMans race car than a Formula One car.

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    Jonas Ribbelov said:
    Ferrari and cheating?

    Isn't Ferrari from Italy? ... the country which invented cheating

    Sooner or later, reality catches up with you - so if a customer Enzo car then posted a NS time much slower than the facotry car then you have the answer....

    The best thing to do, test a customer Enzo vs a customer CGT on the same day and there will be peace and quite once the flying lap is done....



    Wow...I am not even Italien and I find your comments above very general and very stupid What's next... all swed's are blonds, therefore they are dumb!

    Let me add some more fuel to the fire...

    Anyone remember the CGT and Enzo swap between Porsche and Ferrari?...supposedly arranged by the company that make the monocoque for both cars??? Well, rumor has it that Porsche took both cars out and the CGT beat the Enzo by a massive 21 seconds at the Ring. Take it with a grain of salt of course...I heard this while talking to a Porsche employee at Leipzig for the CGT Customer Event. I'm just adding more fuel to the fire. hehehe.

    Cheers,
    -Nick

    Re: Let me add some more fuel to the fire...

    I heard something similar, but I was told specifically that it was not under dry conditions. It wasn't raining or anything, but they suspected the Enzo would be significantly closer under normal testing conditions.

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    strawman said:
    What's next... all swed's are blonds, therefore they are dumb!


    You took the words right out of my mouth... (JOKE!!!)

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    And more manufacturers compete at Le Mans than at Formula One. And reliability and engineering are more important for a LeMans race car than a Formula One car.


    In the GT class that Porsche involves, I only see GT3, 360, Morgan and TVR. And ultimate performance and technologies are more important for F1 than LeMans.

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    iia said:
    In the GT class that Porsche involves, I only see GT3, 360, Morgan and TVR. And ultimate performance and technologies are more important for F1 than LeMans.



    I also see Audi, Corvette, the 550, Caterpillar, Saleen in the other classes. Le Mans sees a more variety of manufacturers than F1.

    F1 and Indy races are nice to watch, but they only go for an hour or two. Would a F1 car be able to go 24 hours? Not likely.

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Funny all that technology wouldn't last more than 4hrs at Lemans. It is beyond crazy the costs it takes to build and run an F1 team. More than most 3rd world countries GDPs.

    Re: Let me add some more fuel to the fire...

    Quote:
    A430v said:
    Anyone remember the CGT and Enzo swap between Porsche and Ferrari?...supposedly arranged by the company that make the monocoque for both cars??? Well, rumor has it that Porsche took both cars out and the CGT beat the Enzo by a massive 21 seconds at the Ring. Take it with a grain of salt of course...I heard this while talking to a Porsche employee at Leipzig for the CGT Customer Event. I'm just adding more fuel to the fire. hehehe.

    Cheers,
    -Nick



    Yep, I'm most definetely taking the 7:32 or so achieved around that time (7:28 since) + 21 seconds with a MAJOR grain of salt! Look at the cars in that 7:53 time slot and tell me you for a second believe that BS.

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    NeverLift said:
    Funny all that technology wouldn't last more than 4hrs at Lemans. It is beyond crazy the costs it takes to build and run an F1 team. More than most 3rd world countries GDPs.



    Look what they're achieving out of the displacement they are working with. One could easily argue that majorly detuning that stuff to still sick power would most definetely well extend the duty cycle. But, that's not how F1 works.

    Re: ***BREAKING NEWS - official Enzo lap time @ Nordschleife

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    Quote:
    iia said:
    In the GT class that Porsche involves, I only see GT3, 360, Morgan and TVR. And ultimate performance and technologies are more important for F1 than LeMans.



    I also see Audi, Corvette, the 550, Caterpillar, Saleen in the other classes. Le Mans sees a more variety of manufacturers than F1.

    F1 and Indy races are nice to watch, but they only go for an hour or two. Would a F1 car be able to go 24 hours? Not likely.


    I know there are other brands in other classes, but they're not compete to Porsche compare to the # of different brands in F1 that Ferrari has to compete with (although not much).

    How fast can a car in GT finishes a lap then? It all depends on what you want. Why does F1 has to run over 3 hrs? Why does GT has to run as fast as F1? My point is if the manufactors want the image of reliability, go for LeMans. If they want the image of ultimate technologies, go for F1.

     
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