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    Cayman market position

    I agree with what RC says in a previous post elsewhere: Porsche sees and wants us to see the Cayman as a new product.
    It needs to be a new product (not just a Boxster Coupe) since it'll be more expensive than a Boxster. If they wanted it to be perceived as a Boxster with hardtop it would less expensive and be the entry level Porsche - that's what the rumours said about 12-18 months ago.

    From a marketing and brand management standpoint I see problems and have a lot of questions about the way Porsche is now positioning the Cayman - especially if there's (like RC says) going to be a Cayman Turbo with 350 hp.

    With a new product Porsche must want to reach new buyers, but what new buyers are they trying to reach with a product so close in price and performance to the 911? My conclusion is that it won't reach many new buyers; it will reach the ones that would have bought a Porsche anyway.

    Porsche's aim must be to sell a lot of cars, right?! If they had made the Cayman into an entry level Porsche (let's say a modern 944/968) they could have reached a bigger market with potential buyers. How great wouldn't that be for Porsche fans if there was a Porsche in the same price range as Audi TT, Nissan 350Z and Mazda RX-8?! With Porsches strong brand it would be a smash hit, sales would go through the roof! This would have been the best way for Porsche to reach many new buyers. Although it would probably damage Porsche's upscale image.

    With the Cayman being positioned so close to the 911, what will happen to the 911? Are they planning to move it further upmarket (both price and performance)? Maybe Porsche has plans for/want a 911 that will compete with Ferrari's F430 and the Gallardo?

    FYI: I will buy a Cayman S, but I would have bought a Porsche anyway.

    Re: Cayman market position

    The latest marketing spin stated that Porsche wants to sell the Cayman to "younger" buyers.....even below the average age of the Boxster buyer.

    The way I still see it is that the Cayman S is still a Boxster with a roof, slightly bigger engine, and a few body tweeks. If someone really thinks this thing is totally different than a Boxster I got some good swamp land to sell 'em. Yes it will handle a little better and be a little faster.....both are defaults of adding a roof and a bigger engine. If I welded a roof on a Boxster S and added the bigger engine it would perform the same.

    Lately I don't know how many cars Porsche wants to sell. They seem to want to sell a lot more than in the past, but still want to keep their prestigious image......theories that don't often work together. They have no problem bringing out a cheap VW based V6 Cayenne, but just can't bring themselves to produce a decently priced fixed roof sports car.

    What I also find interesting is that a lot of the press still pins the Caymans competitors as the Audi TT, 350z, G35, Corvette etc. Clearly at the price range that Porsche seems to be sticking to for the Cayman.....none of the above are anywhere near being competitors....all are priced at least $10K-$20K less.

    I for one have always stated that I didn't want to see a cheap entry level Porsche. Just something with a fixed roof at a decent price with performance equal to a Boxster. Porsche seems to have answered a question that no one was really asking in my opinion.....but they may have something else in mind with the Cayman.....who knows.

    There's no doubt the Cayman will be a fantasic performer.....but being a Porsche its expected. Its really a car they should have been building all along ever since the Boxster was brought out in '97. Now that they finally realized that the sport coupe market is back with a vengeance they want to bend us over on the price for their late to the game entry. I'm still first in line for one, but don't *have* to have it.....if its something that doesn't fit me in all aspects.....price, performance, style, etc......I can walk away with no problem.

    Re: Cayman market position

    I think someone else posted the theory that the cayman is merely testing the water to see how succesful a mid-engined model will be in comparison to the 911. Which porsche are rumoured to be considering replacing / phasing out. For me this theory holds water as they've done this before. I think when the 928 was brought out in the 70s it was intended as a 911 replacement, but market reponse was so bad that porsche decided to manufacture both models side by side, with the 911 being the eventual "winner".
    There was also talk a few years ago of Porsche offering a mid-engined variant of the 911 (probably the 998 series) for the high performance models i.e. GT2, Turbo, GT3. Basically a 911 with the engine in place of the rear seats. Perhaps the Cayman is testing the water for this idea? This would seem logical given the price is so close to the 911, so both vehicles would be targeting the same type of customer.

    Re: Cayman market position

    Quote:
    JohnJohn said:

    Porsche's aim must be to sell a lot of cars, right?! If they had made the Cayman into an entry level Porsche (let's say a modern 944/968) they could have reached a bigger market with potential buyers. How great wouldn't that be for Porsche fans if there was a Porsche in the same price range as Audi TT, Nissan 350Z and Mazda RX-8?! With Porsches strong brand it would be a smash hit, sales would go through the roof! This would have been the best way for Porsche to reach many new buyers. Although it would probably damage Porsche's upscale image.





    I agree with what you said Johnjohn, but regarding the paragraph above, that's what Porsche did in 96 with the Boxster don't you think?
    They already had a nice convertible on the market, the 993 Cab, great car, but they introduced a cheaper car.
    And I don't think it has devalued the brand at all.
    FWIW, the Boxster saved Porsche from being bought by a bigger company and the image is still intact, people still buy 911 Turbo S cab, Carrera GT and I don't think it bothers them that the same brand makes a Cayenne V6 or Boxster 2.7L.
    Just my opinion.
    I think it's because People buy Porsches for performance more than image.
    I think there will be a cheaper Cayman, actually, the one coming out now being the S version, I don't think, I'm sure!
    And this one will be targeting cheaper models like the Z, the TT V6, etc. but still upmarket though.
    As for competition with 911, yes, some 911 costumers will switch to the Cayman but only the ones focused solely on performance, the 911 carries a strong image.
    Porsche is the 911 and the 911 is Porsche, all in all, I don't think the 911 sales will suffer much.
    Boxster S sales more IMO.
    Capex wise, this can't have been a huge development for Porsche I think, all the elements were there, just some body mods and there you go, Boxster coupe! So even though the incremental number of new costumers is not huge, it'll still be beneficial.
    A bit like the Mercedes-Benz CLS vs the E class.

    Re: Cayman market position

    "Porsche is the 911 and the 911 is Porsche, all in all, I don't think the 911 sales will suffer much.
    Boxster S sales more IMO."

    I agree, as i'm undecided between the two at the moment, but will wait to see the cayman S in the flesh, and more importantly the price list!

    Re: Cayman market position

    Quote:
    NM said:
    I think someone else posted the theory that the cayman is merely testing the water to see how succesful a mid-engined model will be in comparison to the 911. Which porsche are rumoured to be considering replacing / phasing out. For me this theory holds water as they've done this before. I think when the 928 was brought out in the 70s it was intended as a 911 replacement, but market reponse was so bad that porsche decided to manufacture both models side by side, with the 911 being the eventual "winner".
    There was also talk a few years ago of Porsche offering a mid-engined variant of the 911 (probably the 998 series) for the high performance models i.e. GT2, Turbo, GT3. Basically a 911 with the engine in place of the rear seats. Perhaps the Cayman is testing the water for this idea? This would seem logical given the price is so close to the 911, so both vehicles would be targeting the same type of customer.



    Interesting theory NM,
    I think it was RC or Ron who mentionned that too.
    It could be true, I am personally not 100% convinced.
    Maybe because I am too much in love with the 911 and its history.
    Two things characterise a 911, 6 Cyl Boxer and Rear engine.
    So if you take of the rear engine layout, the 911 dies (in glory nonetheless! ).
    You could be right, I mean, how much better can they make it? I don't know I am not a car engineer, direct injection will optimise performance but in terms of displacement I cannot see the Flat6 going pass 4 litres, we'll see.

    Truth is, Porsche has so much cash right now that they can actually afford the luxury of testing the market with a mid enginer variant of the 911, which essentially is not a 911
    I buy your theory! for now...

    Re: Cayman market position

    Fanch,

    I also remember reading a few years ago that the 997 or 998 (can't remember which) engine bay was large enough to accomodate an 8 cylinder engine - possibly from the Cayenne. Which would give enough growth potential for future 911s, although the increased weight would be a major issue.

    Re: Cayman market position

    Quote:
    NM said:
    Fanch,

    I also remember reading a few years ago that the 997 or 998 (can't remember which) engine bay was large enough to accomodate an 8 cylinder engine - possibly from the Cayenne. Which would give enough growth potential for future 911s, although the increased weight would be a major issue.



    That, I think will never happened.
    Remember the other characteristic of the 911, its 6 Cyl Boxer
    Seriously, Durheimer himself quoted it.

    Porsche officials don't say much officially to the press, but when they say something, they keep to their word. (so far!):

    - There will never be a cheaper model than the 2.7L Boxster (which BTW leads me to believe that the Base Cayman will be slightly more expensive than the base Boxster and maybe something like 260 hp)

    - There will never be a Cayenne diesel

    - There will never be a V8 in the 911.

    The last quote is also from Wolfgang Durheimer (chief of R&D) basically explaining that it wouldn't be a 911 anymore but more importantly, as you wrote, that the weight bias would seriously compromise the integrity of the car.

    Let's not forget that since the 996, the 911 is not really rear engined anymore, the engine actually "sits" on the rear axle.

    Re: Cayman market position

    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    Quote:
    NM said:
    Fanch,

    I also remember reading a few years ago that the 997 or 998 (can't remember which) engine bay was large enough to accomodate an 8 cylinder engine - possibly from the Cayenne. Which would give enough growth potential for future 911s, although the increased weight would be a major issue.



    That, I think will never happened.
    Remember the other characteristic of the 911, its 6 Cyl Boxer
    Seriously, Durheimer himself quoted it.

    Porsche officials don't say much officially to the press, but when they say something, they keep to their word. (so far!):

    - There will never be a cheaper model than the 2.7L Boxster (which BTW leads me to believe that the Base Cayman will be slightly more expensive than the base Boxster and maybe something like 260 hp)

    - There will never be a Cayenne diesel

    - There will never be a V8 in the 911.

    The last quote is also from Wolfgang Durheimer (chief of R&D) basically explaining that it wouldn't be a 911 anymore but more importantly, as you wrote, that the weight bias would seriously compromise the integrity of the car.

    Let's not forget that since the 996, the 911 is not really rear engined anymore, the engine actually "sits" on the rear axle.


    But in the past Porsche has put a 4 cylinder engine inside a 911, so an 8? I think anything is possible.

    Re: Cayman market position


    "But in the past Porsche has put a 4 cylinder engine inside a 911, so an 8? I think anything is possible."

    Vtrader - when did they do this? I know they put a 4 in the 912, but cannot remember when a 911 badged model had a 4 cylinder.

    Re: Cayman market position

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    Quote:
    NM said:

    But in the past Porsche has put a 4 cylinder engine inside a 911, so an 8? I think anything is possible.



    That's why they called it 912

    Re: Cayman market position

    Quote:
    Zürich said:
    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    Quote:
    NM said:

    But in the past Porsche has put a 4 cylinder engine inside a 911, so an 8? I think anything is possible.



    That's why they called it 912



    Gents,
    Let's not be cynical , Vtrader has a point, we all know that although badged as a different model for marketing reasons, the 912 was essentially a 911 with a 356 engine at the back.
    My point Vtrader is that, who can do more can do less.
    But it's not true the other way round.
    If Durheimer stated it, it's good enough for me, the guy is slightly more knowledgeable on the 911 that I am, just slightly
    But even if you think about, current weight distribution of the car is 62/38 (rear/front) I think.
    And althought it can prove a handful at the limit, it's great for traction and feedback.
    More than that would be compromising I think.

     
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