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    Maybe Porsche needs to fail...

    I get the feeling that there are many people disgruntled with the fact that Porsche has become very greedy in the last few years due to their arrogant attitude in expecting people to flock to their products because on the strength of their brand.

    RC's thread to urge Porsche to listen and put out the 997 TT with at least 500bhp reflects the majority of enthusiasts on this board. If 480bhp is confirmed then I will be very dissapointed even though I won't be in a position to afford one in the meantime.

    In an age where the likes of BMW is preparing to unleash the E90 M3 with at least 420bhp and with the M5 & M6 starting with 507bhp with pretty decent spec, a 997 Carrera S with a 'puny' 355bhp seems pretty poor value (heck, you even have to pay extra for bleeding metalic paint and PCM Nav module!).

    I wonder how long Porsche's loyal customer base will put up with this prolonged ass-rape situation with releasing every successive evolution with tiny bhp increase cancelled by weight gain.

    Surely, it can't be long when people will wake up and smell the coffee and think the unthinkable: maybe to jolt Porsche back into doing what they do best and put out products that is truly the fastest and most cutting edge, we may have to desert their products and make them suffer financially to bring them out of complacency...

    maybe by bringing them down to it's knees back in the 993 days is the only way for them to listen to the most important people: you

    Re: Maybe Porsche needs to fail...

    I agree. Porsche's pricing policies do not make any sense - Pure marketing and profitablility. By reducing their prices Porsche cars will somewhat lose their prestige and allure so you pay a premium for the Porsche name and pedigree. Don't get me wrong, Porsche performance is what sells these cars, but c'mon - did you look at the options list? You can easily configure a Boxster to be more expensive than a base 911. It's getting a little out of hand. Also, regarding the performance, well, Porsche makes you pay huge premiums for power, but once you get hooked , it's like a drug. As long as there are willing buyers, Porsche will keep creeping their prices up. But buying a Porsche is not a rational choice, it's an emotional choice and a pure luxury. No one NEEDS a Porsche but those willing to "join the family" are willing to pay the price. You know, I'm sure they do a ton of market research, and they know their prospective buyers very well. Damn them!!!

    Re: Maybe Porsche needs to fail...

    I somewhat agree. But, compared to the price of a Ferrari ( in the USA), I think the price is right.

    Re: Maybe Porsche needs to fail...

    I totaly agree Lavaman. Even a current generation M3 can challenge THE PORSCHE, so imagine what the new M3 will do. This can't be good for the reputation and image of Porsche.

    Re: Maybe Porsche needs to fail...

    In my mind the point of the porsche is that that you are driving a prestige vehicle with pedigree; style; character; enough power and speed to satisfy 99% of my urges to become a racing driver; and above all it is a relatively un-common sight on the roads which gives me a satisfying glow that I am driving an aspirational car.

    The marketing and price are 'spot on' - any cheaper and the prestige and aspirational qualities of ownership would deteriorate. I would be interested to know how many of us would drive them if they were as common as a mazda mx5 and cost the same?...I suspect not many.

    This is an emotional purchase, for me there is no point in justifying the cost..I can't..but i'd buy one tomorrow if the price was 20%+ higher and I could still afford it - porsche know what motivates me and you guys very well indeed..and price the product accordingly.

    (Oh yeh..and its not a BMW!)

    Re: Maybe Porsche needs to fail...

    Yup, pretty much agree with that.... Which is why my next performance car will be an E90 M3.

    Done the porsche thing now, and whilst I love my 987 to bits... it aint fast enough (Drag fast that is) and the options are soooooooooo expensive. My guess is that my base M3 will come with the majority of things that I would normally have to pay for on a Porker.... Oh and then theres the little matter of it most likely having 410+ bhp, which I would guess probably leave a 911s standing in a drag race.

    Re: Maybe Porsche needs to fail...

    Bet your back in a Porsche one day! The M3 is a nice car but once the novelty wears off Porsche will be a fond memory in your mind with a 911 calling.

    I admit that my experience is with the current outgoing M3 but it matches so many other peoples experience on here. My M3 was great, fast, handled well, loads of toys. But after a while there was nothing to hold me to it.

    Nice to have tried it though - have fun trying and let us know what you think of the new M3 when you get a drive.

    Re: Maybe Porsche needs to fail...

    Sorry but I disagree. I think that 355hp and Pounds65K for the carrera s is good value. You are focusing too much on an absolute horse power figure. Want counts is how the car utilises its available power. The 997 does this better than the competition. Read the thread on the TOP Gear TT race drag, where the 997S was 6 Secs quicker than the Baby Aston and the New M6.

    If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

    All the horsepower in the world won't attract me to an ugly car. The only BMWs I find 'tolerable' are the X5 and the Z4. Everything else just makes me grimmace with repulsion. Chris Bangle's designs don't challenge me, they attack my sense of good taste, fail to impress me, leave me feeling cold towards BMWs and finally make me resolve that no matter how good a new BMW may be technically, I can never bring myself to close my eyes to how ugly it is. And this is coming from me as a E46 BMW owner who loves the shape of his car.

    I guess it's like attraction to women. It doesn't matter if she can cook like a restaurant chef, is an expert flower arranger, can gift wrap presents etc etc... if she's ugly, you won't want to sleep with her unless you're really desperate. But you'll hate yourself for having done it afterwards with someone so repulsive.

    Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    .

    I guess it's like attraction to women. It doesn't matter if she can cook like a restaurant chef, is an expert flower arranger, can gift wrap presents etc etc... if she's ugly, you won't want to sleep with her unless you're really desperate. But you'll hate yourself for having done it afterwards with someone so repulsive.



    Thats a bloody corker ..

    throt..

    Re: Maybe Porsche needs to fail...

    As for Porsche's greed (excessive option list, only moderate HP-increase over time) I think we should not blame Porsche in the first place, but Porsche's competitors!

    Porsche generated an EBT-margin of nearly 19% in the most recent FY (04/05) - not including the dealership's additional margin of course. As such a high margin is unparalleled in the car industry it is a clear sign of lacking competition. I think most people would recognise a BMW M3 more as a superfast sedan than a sports car, so there is not a too big overlap in the respective audiences.

    Traditionally Ferrari and Lamborghini are regarded as P's competitors building sports cars which you can enjoy for everyday use also (that a lot of F-car owners abusing their cars as garage queens, is another topic though), although pricewise there is only a small overlap with Porsche's most expensive models.

    The problem is, that Ferrari sticks to an ancient business model which does not allow to create value for the company due to it's self-imposed limitation of production capacity (I think it's max. 4,300 cars p.a.), not allowing for economies of scale. To me it's very sad that Ferrari (which I have a lot of respect and passion for) generates a ridiculous appr. 1.5 bn Euro sales (ridiculous compared to the world-wide awareness and reputation of the brand) with NO PROFIT at all (Porsches EBT nowadays is close to Ferrari's sales). The only people making profits with Ferraris are some dealers and customers (specifically in the US) abusing the closed shop system.

    Why does Ferrari not learn from the Porsche experience and would offer some new model range at least in the 100 k Euro market ? They might loose some existing snob customers who are after the exclusivity thing (BTW I don't think that Porsche has lost any 911 customer by introducing the Boxster), but overall I bet they would create big value for their shareholders AND (new) customers.

    The same rule should apply to Lamborghini, but I doubt that they would allow to compete with Porsche in a broader range after Porsche has bought the 20% share in VW.

    So basically Porsche might feel like having created almost a monopoly in the midrange (pricewise) market for Sportscars with a "everyday use option" (F-cars and L-cars being too expensive for most of P's customers, maybe a little bit too flashy for some others, Lotus & Co. not too expensive, but more track-toys than for everyday use).

    So it's natural for Porsche to exploit their USP to the max. until really being challenged by their competitors.

    To me it compares to the situation in F1 when everybody has been complaining that Schumi and Ferrari would bore the audience to death with their endless seeming string of victories - in a competitive environment they should have been complaining about the poor performance of the competitors rather than blaming Ferrari/Schumi.

    Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

    I have to chuckle when I read threads like this about horsepower deficits and drag racing when taken into the context of everday driving. Just how many traffic light burn offs do you want to be doing? If you take these arguements to their extremes there are hot hatches out there now that offer a bigger bang for the buck than a Porsche relatively speaking. Advances in electronic driver aids, engine mapping, metals technology, tyres etc etc now mean that sum pretty humdrum cars are extremely rapid - including diesels! I think you are missing the point on the whole Porsche experience if you only consider on paper stats. I can understand people's concern about the TT having sub 500 bhp but we'll have to wait and see how it performs when it finally arrives but I think ACA summed it up perfectly on the point about the C2S vs the much higher bhp M6 and the AMV8 on Top Gear. The 997 walked all over them due to it's sublime combination of handling and ability to lay down all of it's power more of the time.

    Perhaps it's an age thing or a need to have bigger bragging rights....who knows. I agree with Kev on the aspirational point as well. You are buying into a brand with a long pedigree and as with all brands this involves a premium. One thing I can say, having just switched from a 997 to a Ferrari 360, is that the Porsche suddenly feels like a real bargain in terms of quality, handling and performance.

    Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

    Quote:
    ISUK said:
    . One thing I can say, having just switched from a 997 to a Ferrari 360, is that the Porsche suddenly feels like a real bargain in terms of quality, handling and performance.



    I think the threads at the moment miss the main issue here with Porsche , and that is the gizmos that dont come as standard and the prices of the gizmos on selecting them.

    Main culprit and gripe here at Rennteam appears to be the PK , am I wrong guys ? I think I am right and this has just become a big " Principle " issue because we feel its a tactical rip off..

    throt...

    Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

    I just bought my first Porsche C2 Conv. For me I have plenty of power but I am not a race fan. I don't try to be the first from light to light and I don't burn my tires, etc. I love driving the car through the turns. Now would I like more power, sure but power is not what made me want a Porsche. Hey if people stop buying the cars then Porsche will make a change to bring them back. As for the options, yes they are pricey. If someone finds a car they like better then by all means buy it and enjoy. I have owned a BMW X5, 540, 745 and they are all great cars. I like my 997 better but for different reasons. Hey when my kids get bigger and I need a bigger car maybe I will look at a 5 series again. But until then I will enjoy my 997 Cab.

    Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

    Yes, the PK pricetag is crazy..When I think my 246 GTS Dino was $17K out the door, and now I am dropping the same $ for 27 BHP and some engine enhancements.....But it's all a matter of choice and ability to afford. That supply and demand thing is inherent in the P pricing theory, and the fact that HP is an addictive drug. Point in fact is the threads concerning whether the TT will have 480 HP 0r the magic 500.
    That's 20HP! How much difference in performance is 20HP. But we are all hooked on power numbers and they know it. In the end we should all be happy with our option choices, after deciding on how much we are willing to spend.

    Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

    Quote:
    ISUK said:
    I have to chuckle when I read threads like this about horsepower deficits and drag racing when taken into the context of everday driving. Just how many traffic light burn offs do you want to be doing? If you take these arguements to their extremes there are hot hatches out there now that offer a bigger bang for the buck than a Porsche relatively speaking. Advances in electronic driver aids, engine mapping, metals technology, tyres etc etc now mean that sum pretty humdrum cars are extremely rapid - including diesels! I think you are missing the point on the whole Porsche experience if you only consider on paper stats. I can understand people's concern about the TT having sub 500 bhp but we'll have to wait and see how it performs when it finally arrives but I think ACA summed it up perfectly on the point about the C2S vs the much higher bhp M6 and the AMV8 on Top Gear. The 997 walked all over them due to it's sublime combination of handling and ability to lay down all of it's power more of the time.

    Perhaps it's an age thing or a need to have bigger bragging rights....who knows. I agree with Kev on the aspirational point as well. You are buying into a brand with a long pedigree and as with all brands this involves a premium. One thing I can say, having just switched from a 997 to a Ferrari 360, is that the Porsche suddenly feels like a real bargain in terms of quality, handling and performance.



    I couldn't have said it any better if I tried.

    I think Porsche tends to be conservative with its power ratings. Even if we see 480hp on a press release, the car could easily have more and Porsche is just saving that magic '500+ on paper' for the powerkit/Turbo S.

    Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

    Porsche to me is not about ultimate horsepower. Its about passion, style, elitism and individuality. M3's etc are ten a penny they're like assholes everyone has one. BMW have no style, no beauty, no finesse no downright look at me I stand out from the crowd, forgods sake their ugly. How many people do you know who wait a lifetime to buy a BMW. How many people do you know that drool over the siight of a BMW. Please don't degrade the 911 anymore by comparing it to inferior cars that don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath never mind sit in the same drive.Superior horsepower doesn't make the car.

    In Porsche's Case Looks Represent Power

    What's the worth of a P-car (any car)? It's worth what people will pay for it.

    If they will pay less it's worth less. Something to do with the concept "market forces." Porsche's doing very well as a market-driven company.

    Just buy what you like and can afford. If you can't afford it don't buy it. Horsepower and performance figures still make Porsche a very worthy car since, today, people prefer to buy Porsches.

    Sorry for the harsh reality check.

    As for the HP wars? I'm sure there's a group at Porsche who has a strategy for winning them..., er..., ah..., I mean, they have a strategy for NOT LOSING them.


    Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

    Quote:
    samuel said:
    BMW have no style, no beauty, no finesse no downright look at me I stand out from the crowd, forgods sake their ugly. Please don't degrade the 911 anymore by comparing it to inferior cars that don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath never mind sit in the same drive.Superior horsepower doesn't make the car.



    I'm sorry, I disagree; BMW makes fine automobiles. You're right about BMW becoming RECENTLY ugly, hopefully that will change in the not-too-distant future. Comparing the Porsche to other cars? It's a hobby we're enjoying it's FUN to compare. If this were playing with people's lives or spiritual beliefs then maybe some comparisons would be nasty.

    Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

    But isn't that the nature of where these discussions brew from, I mean, sometimes they read like when I was growing up and playing "Top Trumps" with friends (no bad feeling intended to anyone at all)

    Enjoy your car, and enjoy the experience..

    Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

    Quote:
    samuel said:
    Porsche to me is not about ultimate horsepower. Its about passion, style, elitism and individuality. M3's etc are ten a penny they're like assholes everyone has one. BMW have no style, no beauty, no finesse no downright look at me I stand out from the crowd, forgods sake their ugly. How many people do you know who wait a lifetime to buy a BMW. How many people do you know that drool over the siight of a BMW. Please don't degrade the 911 anymore by comparing it to inferior cars that don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath never mind sit in the same drive.Superior horsepower doesn't make the car.




    Excellent post!

    Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

    IMO what ever car you buy there is always something that is going to be more powerfull and more beautiful.

    Just like having a wife or girlfriend. There's always something better but you stay with you stay with them if they make you happy.

    It all boils down to what you want and what makes you happy.

    Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

    Quote:
    samuel said:
    Porsche to me is not about ultimate horsepower. Its about passion, style, elitism and individuality. M3's etc are ten a penny they're like assholes everyone has one. BMW have no style, no beauty, no finesse no downright look at me I stand out from the crowd, forgods sake their ugly. How many people do you know who wait a lifetime to buy a BMW. How many people do you know that drool over the siight of a BMW. Please don't degrade the 911 anymore by comparing it to inferior cars that don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath never mind sit in the same drive.Superior horsepower doesn't make the car.



    Everything you wrote about BMW applies to Porsche. Within the next couple of years, they will be producing over 100,000 cars! All models share parts and design. They are the Ford and GM of the sport car world.

    As for drooling over the design of a Porsche, clearly you have a physical problem. The design has been around for years and unless you are in a state of perpetual drooling, you may have a vision problem as well

    Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

    Quote:
    chili said:
    .

    Just like having a wife or girlfriend. There's always something better but you stay with you stay with them if they make you happy.





    But you can always have a dabble cant you ? , but the Mrs says if she catches me ,, " I be wearing my bollocks as earings " ..

    Is it worth wearing hairy earings , what yu think ??..

    throt..

    Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    samuel said:
    Porsche to me is not about ultimate horsepower. Its about passion, style, elitism and individuality. M3's etc are ten a penny they're like assholes everyone has one. BMW have no style, no beauty, no finesse no downright look at me I stand out from the crowd, forgods sake their ugly. How many people do you know who wait a lifetime to buy a BMW. How many people do you know that drool over the siight of a BMW. Please don't degrade the 911 anymore by comparing it to inferior cars that don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath never mind sit in the same drive.Superior horsepower doesn't make the car.



    Everything you wrote about BMW applies to Porsche. Within the next couple of years, they will be producing over 100,000 cars! All models share parts and design. They are the Ford and GM of the sport car world.

    As for drooling over the design of a Porsche, clearly you have a physical problem. The design has been around for years and unless you are in a state of perpetual drooling, you may have a vision problem as well




    Most car nuts from here see Porsche as I have written. BMW are everywhere bland and ugly. They are a good basic car as someone else said but nonetheless still bland and ugly. Porsche here are seen as the lead sports brand and are something to behold, a rare and beautiful sight. Don't take my comments to heart they are only my opinion take them to bed instead.

    Re: Maybe Porsche needs to fail...

    Maybe PORSCHE's marketing and profitting will ensure they survive the harsh world of the automobile industry for future generations (I want to see the 998, 999, etc.)

    Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

    Quote:
    nberry said:

    As for drooling over the design of a Porsche, clearly you have a physical problem. The design has been around for years and unless you are in a state of perpetual drooling, you may have a vision problem as well



    The three-piece suit and evening dress as the classic appearance of the formally dressed couple from Western society has been around for a long time, as well, and doesn't diminish, and for sports cars, classic styles (and colors) persist-those fruit green and tangerine orange 996Turbo's pictorialized recently on the 996Turbo Board to me were god-awful. Of course, love is in the eye of the beholder-I still can't warm up to the basic lines of a Lambo, but I do approve of most Ferrari styling (the 612 Scag, even the Enzo notwithstanding).

    For me, when it comes to looks and HP, for something as UNnecessary as a sports car, I demand both.

    Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    samuel said:
    Porsche to me is not about ultimate horsepower. Its about passion, style, elitism and individuality. M3's etc are ten a penny they're like assholes everyone has one. BMW have no style, no beauty, no finesse no downright look at me I stand out from the crowd, forgods sake their ugly. How many people do you know who wait a lifetime to buy a BMW. How many people do you know that drool over the siight of a BMW. Please don't degrade the 911 anymore by comparing it to inferior cars that don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath never mind sit in the same drive.Superior horsepower doesn't make the car.



    Everything you wrote about BMW applies to Porsche. Within the next couple of years, they will be producing over 100,000 cars! All models share parts and design. They are the Ford and GM of the sport car world.

    As for drooling over the design of a Porsche, clearly you have a physical problem. The design has been around for years and unless you are in a state of perpetual drooling, you may have a vision problem as well



    I guess the person who brainwashed you must also work for Porsche

    Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

    Quote:
    samuel said:
    Porsche to me is not about ultimate horsepower. Its about passion, style, elitism and individuality. M3's etc are ten a penny they're like assholes everyone has one. BMW have no style, no beauty, no finesse no downright look at me I stand out from the crowd, forgods sake their ugly. How many people do you know who wait a lifetime to buy a BMW. How many people do you know that drool over the siight of a BMW. Please don't degrade the 911 anymore by comparing it to inferior cars that don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath never mind sit in the same drive.Superior horsepower doesn't make the car.



    Hey this is your personal opinion. As you know everyone has one. I don't agree with you at all. I like the new BMW designs and I know people who have waited to buy a BMW. It's all about personal choice. I have owned both [BMW and Porsche] and both of them offer things that I like. I can see myself buying another BMW in the future as soon as my kids can't fit into the back of my 997. One of the things I enjoy doing is putting the top down on my 997 and riding with my family. As soon as the kids get too big to fit in the 997 it will be time for the 997 to go. Now will I replace it with a BMW, I don't know but until that time comes it is an option.

    Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

    a few more interest rate hikes with a slowdown in real estate continuing thru next year and then you'll see much more inventory on the lots plus larger discounts. Happens every cycle.

     
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