Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

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    Re: Nevada roads

    Porsche-Jeck said:
    ... Nevada roads (are there some curves in the desert roads ? ) ...

    Exactly Porsche-Jeck

    I've driven on the interstate roads in Nevada. As many people do, I rented a car in Las Vegas, Nevada and drove to the South Rim of the Grand Canyon in Arizona. I swear - the roads were so straight, it felt like I could have set the cruise control to 55mph and fallen asleep at the wheel for 3-4 hours waking up at my destination!

    Re: You can also cry foul on Motor Bland

    It's not pretty (translation: It's damn homely..), and for the money, I don't understand the draw...

    I find the styling clumsy and hunched-over like a cat wretching-up a fur-ball, and picture guys in tight black leggings and turtlenecks (like Dieter from Sprockets) snapping them up...

    If it ain't pretty, it better run like a scalded mule on crack... This car accomplishes neither, and is completely off my radar of "cars I would own if money didn't matter". I wouldn't even buy a 1/18" scale die cast model of it...

    Re: You can also cry foul on Motor Bland

    I think we can all agree that the 911 could use another 20 to 30 hp to make it more competitive. This might come with the face lift, or for sure with the 998. They have the technology, they seem to hold back and release the stuff slowly, for marketing.
    I still love the 911, for what it has and what it does it is remarkable.

    Re: You can also cry foul on Motor Bland

    I believe that for the USA market Audi still has reputation issues that will continue for a long time. Remember the days of the "sudden acceleration" when in reality, some grandmother confused the accelerator pedal for the brake.

    Audis have always been a good value for the money than BMWs MB, etc.

    Re: You can also cry foul on Motor Bland

    IMHO the point of the R8 is not to sell a $120k car. It's to tell the world (especially the US) that Audi actually sells a $120k car.

    As you mentioned, Audi still has to recover from the "sudden acceleration" hatchet job.

    Re: You can also cry foul on Motor Bland

    I agree that it's time for Porsche to step up to the plate, the 997S should be 385 h.p + with the GT3 at 450+ and Turbo 500+. It makes you wonder what the problem is?? The cost fo more h.p. will be slightly higher but almost most of us are willing to pay

    "Could a Would a Should a"?

    The "problem" is that the flat-6 is about maxed out. According to Porsche it can grow to 4 liters but that's it, tops. Based on 100hp/liter that means the flat-6 could produce 400hp.

    You can get more juice out of the engine (Obviously the GT3 proves that point), but it starts to cost a lot more money. When you start getting beyond 100hp/liter the engineering gets more challenging and reliability becomes a bigger factor. And how much are you prepared to pay for that hp?

    I don't have the data to hand but it would be an interesting exercise to plot the $cost for Xhp/liter, for N/A engines using 100hp/liter as the index benchmark, then everything else either more or less efficient. Plot cost on the vertical axis and efficiency on the horizontal axis and see where Porsche's various N/A engines fall compared to AMG, Aston Martin, BMW, Chevrolet, Dodge, Ferrari, Ford, Honda, Lamborghini, Maserati, etc.

    Then if you really want to get complicated factor in the weight of each vehicle to get a hp/lb ratio to see how fat these cars are...

    Re: "Could a Would a Should a"?

    They could simply supercharge it

    Seriously, why not an "S" version with a low pressure turbo. HP problem solved.

    BMW just reintroduced some gas turbo cars in the 3 series.

    Porsche has the experience obviously

    Re: "Could a Would a Should a"?

    I can't a 911 with a V8 engine as it will then become a different car and therefore no longer a 911. Supercharging or turbocharging and working on ways to reduce the weight of the car will be perhaps the only chance the 911 has to compete with super fast cars. Look at the new M3 it's now a V8 and M5 and M6 with V10 engines. Yet Porsche stands up against all of them rather well considering the difference in the engine size. Who knows even the Cayman S might soon catch up with the C2S. Perhaps squeeze out the 415 H.P.out of the 997S and then offer a supercharger on the GT2 and Turbo's on the 997TT and the GT2. I am in love with 911 because of it's timeless design and the rear engine and hate to see that go away

    Re: "Could a Would a Should a"?

    I totally agree with you and comparing that BUTT UGLY R8 to a 997C4 is a joke!! The editor rates the R8's interior as more ergonomic. Give me a break! NOT! Why did they not use a 997S4? or a straight 997S for the comparison?

    Re: "Could a Would a Should a"?

    i totally agree that p car is better all round

    but there is a BUT

    as someone said before its not the issue of which car is better that frightens me

    its the issue of another car (from the household industry) competing so close with PORSCHE

    whether the porsche was an S or not ,that doesnt change the fact that AUDI is really close this time, as some other car makers.

    In the older days, Porsche was far ahaid from the competition.
    In our days Porsche is in a race where other competitors are in its tale.

    One day, sooner or later, someone will make a totally better car.Thats a fact IF porsche does not concentrate on SPORTS CARS, instead of giving the lead to its marketing and finance dept.
    i envy the 80's where no one even dared to compare another car with the Porsche
    in 2007 every week we face a new car magazine cover saying
    porsche Vs 1,2,3,4,5 cars that they will steal its 1st place over competition.

    I think that Porsche is still the leader.
    I m just disliking the fact that other car makers gained the priviledge to compare their makings with porsche.

    Lets face it. If they keep up finding ways to take our money with so many variations of models, and facelifts and all these useless extras, somewhere in the end they will distract their mission from making the best sports car in the world

    in my opinion, porsche should do something in the near future to

    win the lost UNCOMPARABLE position it had in the old years

    i m not saying its DEFEATED but its surely COMPARABLE in nowdays.

    i just wish it was both

    happy evening

    A tough world we live in

    International rules and regulations make it more difficult to be both innovative and profitable. Engineers use the same basic programs to engineer the mechanics of cars. Designers all use the same CAD programs. The manufacturers all use the same basic group of component suppliers. The customers are getting smarter, but also more risk averse. Market research kills the truly different rather than champions it. The shelf life of a car has dropped dramatically meaning customers expect change (not neccessarily improvement) every 3 - 4 years. It means you have to recoup your investment faster so you use more existing components and take fewer risks. If one manufacturer innovates then everyone rushes to copy and follow. Look at the "Bangleisation" of styling and the rise of the "Guppy" grill, or the sprouting of iDrive copies.

    All of these things have levelled the playing field. It's like the salary cap in NFL.

    If at the end of all that you can truly innovate and stay two or more steps ahead of the pack then you're a genius. 30 years ago it was much, much easier to stand apart from the crowd. Today you need to a Steve Jobs/Jonathon Ives like team to make it happen.

    I'm not sure that Porsche has that team nor would marketing and finance let them have that team as it would create an internal powershift that would cause those two groups to lose the control they have built up since Wiedeking took control of the company. For that kind of change Wiedeking would have to go, the market for Porsches decline so dramatically, or profitability collapse, or environmental controls become so prohibitive that they would have to make the kind of radical changes forced on them back in the early 90's when Wiedeking took over from Bez.

    Re: A tough world we live in

    Le Chef said:
    If one manufacturer innovates then everyone rushes to copy and follow. Look at the "Bangleisation" of styling and the rise of the "Guppy" grill, or the sprouting of iDrive copies.

    It's like BMW has been ruined for me, now Porsche seems on the way down (I want trade up to a Turbo, but I'm having a hard time making myself fall in love with it's excessively styled looks).

    What are we going to do for car excitement in the future? Will it be like fashion eyewear? You know, a needless trend which nobody really wants to go along with but when your glasses break you have no choice and have to go with latest dumb-looking style?

    Re: A tough world we live in

    What are we going to do for car excitement in the future? Will it be like fashion eyewear? You know, a needless trend which nobody really wants to go along with but when your glasses break you have no choice and have to go with latest dumb-looking style?

    More like cellphones than eye glasses I suspect...

    Re: A tough world we live in

    Competition is a good thing, unless you view manufacturers like football teams...

    I actually kinda like recent BMW's, I just single out the Z3 and Z4 as being goofy little rats, the Z4 specifically being the answer to a question that nobody asked...

    I'm not against daring styling... I'm against bad styling... The two should not be confused...

    Usually good daring styling gets instantly snubbed by folks who gag-reflex on anything that isn't "what they expected" (just like taking a mystery bite of food blindfolded, and it being a totally different food than what you were first informed), which for some becomes ingrained in a way where they never stop telling themselves that they hate it (never give it another chance after the brief taste of re-gurge), or they just never want to admit they were wrong after it does start to make sense to them..

    The pre-bangle BMW's were absolutely beautiful, but now... I'm afraid they look like old used cars, just like old 90's Audis and old Mercs..

    The new cars are certainly bolder and more daring, and if you're not a bold and daring type, well.... that's why there's other brands out there. But the fact is that styling is back in style... And when I say styling, I'm talking about cars that dare to have lines and shapes and contours, cars you actually CAN recognize from a city block away. Back in the 80's, all the concepts were shaped like jelly-beans, and everyone lamented that the days of art in automobiles were being devoured by the wind-tunnel...

    I feel that right now we are in the middle of a renaissance of performance AND style. The fact that the style is polarizing.... Be honest with yourself, that GOES with the territory. Walk into any concours de elegance, and you'll find sculpture that runs the gamut, some incredibly daring and foreward thinking, and others classicly sublime and conservative. Something for everybody. In the 80's and 90's, everyone was more or less drawing from the same template.... and it stunk, especially to the individualist.

    Re: A tough world we live in

    Globalization will make us a world of mutts unless we re-build the walls. Things will stop being unique, we will eat the same food, drive the same cars, watch the same tv etc etc etc.

    Re: A tough world we live in

    RR4 said:

    Globalization will make us a world of mutts unless we re-build the walls. Things will stop being unique, we will eat the same food, drive the same cars, watch the same tv etc etc etc.

    Trust me, you won't be doing the same things I am...

    BTW, mutts make the best pets, period, end of discussion...

    Re: "Could a Would a Should a"?

    We all have differing views, which is what a forum is about. I will just add my two cents. I have owned Porsches of many descriptions for over 40 years now, and can without exagerration say that over that entire period, Porsches have been compared to something that was going to knock it off its perch. Corvettes, Camaros, Ferraris, Aston Martins, Jaguars, BMWs, just to name a few. The 911 series has always stayed slightly ahead (in the mid-80s it fell periously close to falling behind in my view). It has never been the "super king" that we may have wished it to be, but it has always stayed ahead. And having owned four turbos over the years, I can say without reservation that they have always been compared to the big corvettes, with the "you can buy 2 corvettes for the price of one turbo and get identical performance, etc., etc).

    IMHO, Porsche is more ahead now than ever. The management is superb, the products terrific (the Boxster needs some real change in my view), the profits soaring which means more money for research, development and service. When I visited the factory a week or so ago, the production line was going full speed--Carreras, Turbos, GT3s, GT3RSs, and the close friends I have who work there are enthusiastic, even inspired by the company's success. These are people with great pride and with great allegiance to Porsche, and are determined to make the company and its products better and better.

    (As an aside, I saw several white turbos and my contacts at the factory say that white is now more popular than ever).

    Is the competition fierce? Yes. Has it always been? Yes. Is Porsche financially and technologically prepared to stay ahead? I say yes, now more than ever.

    Re: 997 still wins

    JP66 said:
    Le Chef said:
    Audi wins on a better interior.

    I second that!!!
    But on the outside, the R8 is still an ugly car

    Porsche has the knowledge, experience to compete with other sports car brands...And eventhough they are playing a little too much on the marketing side right now because they know very well that they can do it due to the lack of comparable sports cars. When they will fell threathened they will come out with another tour de force, like always, to ensure their superiority in the most usable everyday sports car maker.

    Re: "Could a Would a Should a"?

    As others have hinted, this Audi looks to be more in pure supercar territory where weird looks are cool, it's totally and only about performance and not practicality, and cost is not an issue.

    I don't think they've made it there with this model yet, but when they do, I still don't think the 911 has anything to worry about - its combination of performance, beauty and practicality will still be unique.



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