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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/05/morgan-stanley-against-the-law-for-automakers-to-sell-cars-like-tesla-does.html


    --

    Mike

    918 Spyder + 991.2 GT2 RS +Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    First mover advantage? Rides like Uber were illegal, until Uber forced changes in the laws...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:
    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:
     

    Tesla is not Apple, even Barclays new memo wrote that today. They are more like Samsung, low profits but push the tech out and leave the luxury and slow update cycles to Porsche and stuffs. To own equity of this company, you have to be very brave since it is becoming clearer that they do not care for the short terms profits whatsoever.

    In phones Apple is premium and Samsung is cheap. In cars EV premium will be the Germans. And the cheap will be Chinese, Ford and GM. No space left for Tesla...

    Ever heard of Huawei?Smiley

    Somehow, the phone market might be similar to the medium and low-priced car market. It is just not profitable enough. The way to make money is to go for emotions (Porsche...) Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    MKSGR:
    In phones Apple is premium and Samsung is cheap. In cars EV premium will be the Germans. And the cheap will be Chinese, Ford and GM. No space left for Tesla...

    Once the car does most of the driving, the key becomes software and electronic distractions for the passengers, not finely tuned handling, illegal top speeds or Nurburgring times that define the car's value.  These seem to be Japanese or American strengths, not necessarily German.  I don't foresee long term survival for the current premium car brands.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Agree to a degree. Once ride sharing becomes the norm (and there is no way it won't, owning a car versus using an autonomous one only the times you use it doesn't make any type of financial sense for most people) there will be high-end cars and people movers. If the car is driving you there is no need for driving dynamics just how much are you willing to pay per ride for a nice interior. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Tesla's Shanghai assembly plant to be completed in May: government official

    https://apple.news/A7v9LzpqFQQmfrk_2ww5XDA


    Volkswagen will let other companies use its MEB electric-car platform:


    https://apple.news/AWngBUxaATqSXSHKZ6ahlLA


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    Tesla's Shanghai assembly plant to be completed in May: government official

    https://apple.news/A7v9LzpqFQQmfrk_2ww5XDA


    Volkswagen will let other companies use its MEB electric-car platform:


    https://apple.news/AWngBUxaATqSXSHKZ6ahlLA

    The Volkswagen story is old news and a prudent direction for the company to take as costs follow an experience or learning curve model.  As more of the MEB platform components are produced, the less expensive it becomes for Volkswagen.  Therefore, getting other automakers to add to the economies of scale production numbers will improve the margins for Volkswagen.  Also, with increased demand for key battery commodities, Volkswagen, and its consortium, can get better pricing than its competitors.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Tesla introduces Supercharger v3.
    https://www.tesla.com/sv_SE/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging?redirect=no

    - 120km range in 5 minutes. All Model 3 since start of production can be software upgraded to take this charge rate.
    - 250kW charge speed. Chargers will have the same existing Tesla cabinets but equipped with thinner liquid cooled cables.
    - Upgrade of stations start during Q2 and will continue throughout the year on all continents where Tesla sell their cars.
    - All Model 3 will get a Software update in the next month and can then charge at 145kW at all "old" existing Superchargers in the mean time (Upped from 120kW)

    For comparison here are some max charging speed for existing and upcoming cars:
    Audi E-tron 150kW
    Jaguar i-Pace 100kW
    Mercedes EQC 110kW
    Kia E-niro 80kW

    V.W ID family (100-125kW)
    Audi Q4 E-tron 125kW
    Polestar 2 125-150kW

    What Tesla is doing here is really a game changer in the price segment. Sure, the 800v tech exist but it is much more expensive (both chargers and components in the car) which is why VW only currently plan to have it in Taycan and the new E-tron GT. We have also yet to see what charge speeds we will actually see when those cars hit the road. So far there are rumors that the Taycan will also charge at 250kW when launched.

    So, Tesla Model 3 (and upcoming Y) will charge twice as fast as other cars in the same (price) segment. Wonder how VW will tackle this with their planned launches for 2020-2021 with half the charge speed. Back to the drawing board?

    Charging speeds in kW however is one thing, but what is most interesting will be added charge in terms of km/h. Efficiency and aero become more and more important.

    After all, most people would however not need to fast charge that often. Car is filled up over night or while at work and fast charging is only relevant those days taking a long trip or driving 300km+. Not that often in most cases, but convenient to charge quick while on the move. Teslas in Europe will be able to access both the Tesla network and also charge at full speed on all existing and coming CCS chargers.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:

    Tesla introduces Supercharger v3.
    https://www.tesla.com/sv_SE/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging?redirect=no

    - 120km range in 5 minutes. All Model 3 since start of production can be software upgraded to take this charge rate.
    - 250kW charge speed. Chargers will have the same existing Tesla cabinets but equipped with thinner liquid cooled cables.
    - Upgrade of stations start during Q2 and will continue throughout the year on all continents where Tesla sell their cars.
    - All Model 3 will get a Software update in the next month and can then charge at 145kW at all "old" existing Superchargers in the mean time (Upped from 120kW)

    For comparison here are some max charging speed for existing and upcoming cars:
    Audi E-tron 150kW
    Jaguar i-Pace 100kW
    Mercedes EQC 110kW
    Kia E-niro 80kW

    V.W ID family (100-125kW)
    Audi Q4 E-tron 125kW
    Polestar 2 125-150kW

    What Tesla is doing here is really a game changer in the price segment. Sure, the 800v tech exist but it is much more expensive (both chargers and components in the car) which is why VW only currently plan to have it in Taycan and the new E-tron GT. We have also yet to see what charge speeds we will actually see when those cars hit the road. So far there are rumors that the Taycan will also charge at 250kW when launched.

    So, Tesla Model 3 (and upcoming Y) will charge twice as fast as other cars in the same (price) segment. Wonder how VW will tackle this with their planned launches for 2020-2021 with half the charge speed. Back to the drawing board?

    Charging speeds in kW however is one thing, but what is most interesting will be added charge in terms of km/h. Efficiency and aero become more and more important.

    After all, most people would however not need to fast charge that often. Car is filled up over night or while at work and fast charging is only relevant those days taking a long trip or driving 300km+. Not that often in most cases, but convenient to charge quick while on the move. Teslas in Europe will be able to access both the Tesla network and also charge at full speed on all existing and coming CCS chargers.

    I guess that is exactly the point which needs to be addressed, in particular, people using the car for business and not just to commuting to work. My corporate clients in Germany usually are located outside the cities, ie. my diesel currently works pretty well for exactly 200 - 300km+ one way trips from where I have my office. Still, I am pretty excited seeing the new mobility developing. I assume that developing the necessary infrastructure is really the difficult task here - I usually imagine in the future German people with their EVs taking off for their winter / summer vacations and then - ALL - having to secure a charger somewhere after the first odd 300kms of driving... Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:

    Tesla introduces Supercharger v3.
    https://www.tesla.com/sv_SE/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging?redirect=no

    - 120km range in 5 minutes. All Model 3 since start of production can be software upgraded to take this charge rate.
    - 250kW charge speed. Chargers will have the same existing Tesla cabinets but equipped with thinner liquid cooled cables.
    - Upgrade of stations start during Q2 and will continue throughout the year on all continents where Tesla sell their cars.
    - All Model 3 will get a Software update in the next month and can then charge at 145kW at all "old" existing Superchargers in the mean time (Upped from 120kW)

    For comparison here are some max charging speed for existing and upcoming cars:
    Audi E-tron 150kW
    Jaguar i-Pace 100kW
    Mercedes EQC 110kW
    Kia E-niro 80kW

    V.W ID family (100-125kW)
    Audi Q4 E-tron 125kW
    Polestar 2 125-150kW

    What Tesla is doing here is really a game changer in the price segment. Sure, the 800v tech exist but it is much more expensive (both chargers and components in the car) which is why VW only currently plan to have it in Taycan and the new E-tron GT. We have also yet to see what charge speeds we will actually see when those cars hit the road. So far there are rumors that the Taycan will also charge at 250kW when launched.

    So, Tesla Model 3 (and upcoming Y) will charge twice as fast as other cars in the same (price) segment. Wonder how VW will tackle this with their planned launches for 2020-2021 with half the charge speed. Back to the drawing board?

    Charging speeds in kW however is one thing, but what is most interesting will be added charge in terms of km/h. Efficiency and aero become more and more important.

    After all, most people would however not need to fast charge that often. Car is filled up over night or while at work and fast charging is only relevant those days taking a long trip or driving 300km+. Not that often in most cases, but convenient to charge quick while on the move. Teslas in Europe will be able to access both the Tesla network and also charge at full speed on all existing and coming CCS chargers.

    I think, that the charging curve (that is charging power vs. battery charging state) is more relevant than peak power. It is my understanding that the e-tron can charge at max power for a significant longer time than a Tesla, mainly because of a different cell chemistry.

    From the blog post: "We will increase Model S and X charging speeds via software updates in the coming months"

    It will be interesting to see what this update will be like.
    Thanks for sharing Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    schmoell:
    lukestern:

    Tesla introduces Supercharger v3.
    https://www.tesla.com/sv_SE/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging?redirect=no

    - 120km range in 5 minutes. All Model 3 since start of production can be software upgraded to take this charge rate.
    - 250kW charge speed. Chargers will have the same existing Tesla cabinets but equipped with thinner liquid cooled cables.
    - Upgrade of stations start during Q2 and will continue throughout the year on all continents where Tesla sell their cars.
    - All Model 3 will get a Software update in the next month and can then charge at 145kW at all "old" existing Superchargers in the mean time (Upped from 120kW)

    For comparison here are some max charging speed for existing and upcoming cars:
    Audi E-tron 150kW
    Jaguar i-Pace 100kW
    Mercedes EQC 110kW
    Kia E-niro 80kW

    V.W ID family (100-125kW)
    Audi Q4 E-tron 125kW
    Polestar 2 125-150kW

    What Tesla is doing here is really a game changer in the price segment. Sure, the 800v tech exist but it is much more expensive (both chargers and components in the car) which is why VW only currently plan to have it in Taycan and the new E-tron GT. We have also yet to see what charge speeds we will actually see when those cars hit the road. So far there are rumors that the Taycan will also charge at 250kW when launched.

    So, Tesla Model 3 (and upcoming Y) will charge twice as fast as other cars in the same (price) segment. Wonder how VW will tackle this with their planned launches for 2020-2021 with half the charge speed. Back to the drawing board?

    Charging speeds in kW however is one thing, but what is most interesting will be added charge in terms of km/h. Efficiency and aero become more and more important.

    After all, most people would however not need to fast charge that often. Car is filled up over night or while at work and fast charging is only relevant those days taking a long trip or driving 300km+. Not that often in most cases, but convenient to charge quick while on the move. Teslas in Europe will be able to access both the Tesla network and also charge at full speed on all existing and coming CCS chargers.

    I think, that the charging curve (that is charging power vs. battery charging state) is more relevant than peak power. It is my understanding that the e-tron can charge at max power for a significant longer time than a Tesla, mainly because of a different cell chemistry.

    From the blog post: "We will increase Model S and X charging speeds via software updates in the coming months"

    It will be interesting to see what this update will be like.
    Thanks for sharing Smiley


    Rumor says that Tesla will allow for a charging curve that will have a more aggressive charging curve than we see today. Also, what is actually most important is km/h added.  if we take the E-tron as example... look at this math

    E-tron = WLTP range of 410km
    Model 3 LR = WLTP range of 560km

    Charging the E-tron from 10-80% at 150kW gives a rated added range of 0,7 *41 = 287. This will take approx 25 minutes to charge (95kW battery)

    Model 3 LR in comparison. 10-60% range at average of 230kW gives an added range of 280km. Charge time to reach this will tak 10 minutes (75kW battery)

    So in practice the Model 3 charges more than twice as fast as the E-tron even though the e-tron can persist the 150kW to 80%. The delta will increase at higher speed due to the high consumption on the E-tron. Driving on the Autobahn I would guess the Model 3 will charge three times as fast as the E-tron in relative terms and in a real world scenario driving from A to B.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    d997h:
    After all, most people would however not need to fast charge that often. Car is filled up over night or while at work and fast charging is only relevant those days taking a long trip or driving 300km+. Not that often in most cases, but convenient to charge quick while on the move. Teslas in Europe will be able to access both the Tesla network and also charge at full speed on all existing and coming CCS chargers.

    I guess that is exactly the point which needs to be addressed, in particular, people using the car for business and not just to commuting to work. My corporate clients in Germany usually are located outside the cities, ie. my diesel currently works pretty well for exactly 200 - 300km+ one way trips from where I have my office. Still, I am pretty excited seeing the new mobility developing. I assume that developing the necessary infrastructure is really the difficult task here - I usually imagine in the future German people with their EVs taking off for their winter / summer vacations and then - ALL - having to secure a charger somewhere after the first odd 300kms of driving... Smiley


    Destination charging will of course be adressed and built out over time. On some occasions it will be possible to charge at a client destination and others it won't. If it is not possible to destination charge there will be some sort of HPC en route and a 10-15 minute stop would not be any problems to stop for a charge and a coffee.

    I think that when people start to test in real world they will realize that it works excellent already today and it will improve for each day that passes. I know that many in here are sceptics, but this is because many lack real world experience and don't understand how it works. I think that is the real challenge, to get people to understand and that it atually is more convenient for many use cases than driving a petrol or diesel car Smiley
     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    My problem is: For me, cars are toys...fun...enjoyment.

    An EV is as emotional and "sexy" as a window mannequin. It serves a useful purpose, in the case of an EV, it may move you from A to B and back to A but otherwise? 🤮

    I am pretty sure that I am going to have an EV at some point, maybe even as a daily driver but it will never be a toy or fun for me, just a boring way to commute. Same as a plane or a train, no fun at all.

    A car needs to be fun, to create chills, goosebumps... An EV, even with 2000 hp, can't do that.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:

    My problem is: For me, cars are toys...fun...enjoyment.

    An EV is as emotional and "sexy" as a window mannequin. It serves a useful purpose, in the case of an EV, it may move you from A to B and back to A but otherwise? 🤮

    I am pretty sure that I am going to have an EV at some point, maybe even as a daily driver but it will never be a toy or fun for me, just a boring way to commute. Same as a plane or a train, no fun at all.

    A car needs to be fun, to create chills, goosebumps... An EV, even with 2000 hp, can't do that.

    I guess fun is why VW has designed an EV dune buggy...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:

    My problem is: For me, cars are toys...fun...enjoyment.

    An EV is as emotional and "sexy" as a window mannequin. It serves a useful purpose, in the case of an EV, it may move you from A to B and back to A but otherwise? 🤮

    I am pretty sure that I am going to have an EV at some point, maybe even as a daily driver but it will never be a toy or fun for me, just a boring way to commute. Same as a plane or a train, no fun at all.

    A car needs to be fun, to create chills, goosebumps... An EV, even with 2000 hp, can't do that.

    And horses were loyal companions which cars were a sad substitute for. We will soon find ways to make EVs endearing and fun, trust me. Just look at the sex doll industry. 🤭


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:

    My problem is: For me, cars are toys...fun...enjoyment.

    An EV is as emotional and "sexy" as a window mannequin. It serves a useful purpose, in the case of an EV, it may move you from A to B and back to A but otherwise? 🤮

    I am pretty sure that I am going to have an EV at some point, maybe even as a daily driver but it will never be a toy or fun for me, just a boring way to commute. Same as a plane or a train, no fun at all.

    A car needs to be fun, to create chills, goosebumps... An EV, even with 2000 hp, can't do that.

    True, the day I have to drive one as a daily I will die a little bit inside...


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    I love gadgets, any kind of new tech, I'm a nerd/geek, whatever you want to call it.

    The Tesla S I drove did nothing for me in the car department but yes, it is a nice gadget, fun to play with but not as a car. 😛 I'd love to get deeper into the software and all the features/options, maybe do some mods but driving the car was interesting for the first charge (which lasted basically only 170 km 😂, P100D), afterwards it was just boring. 

    I know that many think (or even experience) that EVs are fun but for me, they offer zero in the emotional department...as cars. As gadgets? Well, maybe if I get to program/deep setup them myself to my liking. 😛

    Like I said, I love gadgets and tech but when it comes to cars, watches and women, I'm old school. 🤗


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Did Audi Just Disrupt Tesla's Model Y?

    https://apple.news/AwyGJP74ERW6KHrW1B_LR8Q

    Oudated specs for a car coming out in 2020?

    About the V3 supercharger, Tesla just showed that for the next few years, 800V vs 400V is irrelevant in the real world. A long range Model 3 will charge at the same speed (ie miles per minute) as the projected max speed of the Taycan. VW is coming our strong but if you think Tesla will go down without a fight, you are wrong.

    Didn’t make huge headlines but BMW is now officially saying Tesla is really hurting their bottom line in the USA.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    In Germany (I assume in the EU in general), Tesla reduced prices of the X and S 100D versions by 50.000 Euro Smiley This is a very unusual pricing policy....


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    50,000E , angel , you have a free Tesla against a decent option list for a Porsche smiley

     


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Some Tesla owners protested in front of Tesla stores because this reduction affected the resale value of their cars...... Imagine you buy one today and Tesla announces that's it's 40% cheaper the next day...... I would be enraged..... But they will tell you that Tesla is different from the automotive dinasours, yes they are worst coz they don't care about their customers. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Was at BCA auction in UK yesterday with a few Teslas going through - it seemed to me many didn't realise this price drop as they were bidding over £40K on 60,000 mile cars! 


    --

    991 Carrera Black Edition, XC90 Black\Black - 2 kids, 1 dog


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Oh boy. If you love your customers you raise prices like Porsche and charge crazy money for options. Then you prevent depreciation. Oh never mind. 
    Again - her Tits are too big - sound of grown man crying. 
     
    AP911:

    Some Tesla owners protested in front of Tesla stores because this reduction affected the resale value of their cars...... Imagine you buy one today and Tesla announces that's it's 40% cheaper the next day...... I would be enraged..... But they will tell you that Tesla is different from the automotive dinasours, yes they are worst coz they don't care about their customers. 

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    MKSGR:

    In Germany (I assume in the EU in general), Tesla reduced prices of the X and S 100D versions by 50.000 Euro Smiley This is a very unusual pricing policy....

    True, 50k EUR less than before. Current owners must be really pissed. 

    Now, the Tesla S P100D could be competitive... 

    The pressure started, Tesla is pulling the ripcord. 


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Here is a real world comparison between SUC V2 and V3; car runs a beta version of the firmware. Quite an improvement I'd say.Taken from [1]

    1103567501185638400-images-0.jpeg1103567772301193216-images-0.jpeg[1]  https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/V3-Supercharging-Tesla-erlaubt-Laden-mit-250-kW-am-neuen-Supercharger-4329061.html


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    What is Tesla supposed to do? Artificially keep prices too high like Porsche does and let the others eat away at their market penetration? Tesla has no rules, it will change prices, options, offerings as needed to stay relevant in the increasing competitive EV space. They care more about volume than they care about profits.

    Car are becoming appliances, there is always a better newer model coming, like phones and computers. The price drop was the trigger for me to buy a Tesla, $13k savings from the day before.

    Also car manufacturers tend to drop prices at the end of a cycle of a model. Look at all these great leases RC seems to be able to find, they are often to push cars out of the door without changing the MSRP. In some ways it is much more disingenuous than what Tesla just did. Also dealers and manufacturers allow big rebates that are based on unfair criterias which is part of why buyers hate car shopping at a dealership. Tesla does not play these games, you go to the website, the price is the same for everyone, not silly haggling. Love it. Plus you can protect yourself, just lease the car if you can’t take the risk.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    I have never seen a manufacturer drop the price of their current model by 50%. 

    Tesla is under huge pressure because once the "classic" and established car manufacturers start pushing EVs on the market on a regular basis and in various model configurations, Tesla is toast. I said it before and I believe what I said. Unless Elon Musk manages to find more capital to invest in Tesla and/or another car manufacturer buys Tesla and takes the risk (maybe a Chinese manufacturer?).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Musk just secured funding to build the plant in China...

    The big price drops were in foreign markets where number of cars sold was small. Now with the model 3 coming, they car drop prices more on all because they will save some on the sales channel.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    Musk just secured funding to build the plant in China...

    The big price drops were in foreign markets where number of cars sold was small. Now with the model 3 coming, they car drop prices more on all because they will save some on the sales channel.

    Building a plant is good but if he doesn't sell the car he manufactures... Smiley

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    What is Tesla supposed to do? Artificially keep prices too high like Porsche does and let the others eat away at their market penetration? Tesla has no rules, it will change prices, options, offerings as needed to stay relevant in the increasing competitive EV space. They care more about volume than they care about profits.

    This is a bit too simple... They burn other peoples money. Big time. Somebody has to pay for the resulting depreciation of the cars they sold... They will certainly gain customers with the much lower prices. But they will also certainly distract many, many existing customers whose money they took with this price reduction. This is an extremely risky undertaking, I feel. And given they are forced by liquidity shortage I am not convinced the strategic impact did play a major role in their decision process Smiley


     
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