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    OT: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    That takes away 3% of the possible discount I could achieve by importing my car from Germany. Damn!

    Plus a special tax on high income earners in Germany.

    This Merkel/Schroeder grand coalition is already sounding terrible!

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    That takes away 3% of the possible discount I could achieve by importing my car from Germany. Damn!

    Plus a special tax on high income earners in Germany.

    This Merkel/Schroeder grand coalition is already sounding terrible!



    I agree that the "grand coalition" may not be the best solution for Germany and raising taxes surely isn't a clever way to improve the economical situation in Germany.
    I would use the same method Ronald Reagan used back in the 80s to "cure" the US economy: he lowered taxes a lot and increased state spendings. Our government wants to do the contrary, I'm afraid this is the best way to make the economy even worse.
    To get back to the VAT: since I buy my next Porsche cars for the company, I don't give a damn about VAT. It is fully deductable, same applies to other stuff I need. But yes, 3% more tax is a lot, especially nowadays when people are looking at each and every cent they spend.
    The tax for high income doesn't affect me either, it comes in effect just for singles earning more than 250000 Euro per year and married couples earming more than 500000 Euro per year. Net income. I don't come even close to this income, so I don't care. But I can imagine that a lot of rich people may turn their back on Germany, they already did it in the past.

    What can I say? We got the government we deserved. For years, people voted with the wrong people and Mrs. Merkel succesfully got rid of the best people in her party, including the most promising Mr. Merz, a very clever young economics specialist. It is everything about power now, they couldn't care less about the people. The UK was very clever not to join the Euro zone. As much as I appreciate the Euro since I don't have to exchange money during my vacations to Italy, France, etc., it was a bad idea in my opinion, especially because of the "stability" agreement. It forces Euro zone countries to NOT exceed more than 3% debt (related to the income of the whole population, sorry, I don't have the right english word for it). This debt limitation actually creates the biggest problem of all: the state can't spend more money to lower taxes. It is a vicious circle I'm afraid.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    That takes away 3% of the possible discount I could achieve by importing my car from Germany. Damn!

    Plus a special tax on high income earners in Germany.

    This Merkel/Schroeder grand coalition is already sounding terrible!



    I agree that the "grand coalition" may not be the best solution for Germany and raising taxes surely isn't a clever way to improve the economical situation in Germany.
    I would use the same method Ronald Reagan used back in the 80s to "cure" the US economy: he lowered taxes a lot and increased state spendings. Our government wants to do the contrary, I'm afraid this is the best way to make the economy even worse.
    To get back to the VAT: since I buy my next Porsche cars for the company, I don't give a damn about VAT. It is fully deductable, same applies to other stuff I need. But yes, 3% more tax is a lot, especially nowadays when people are looking at each and every cent they spend.
    The tax for high income doesn't affect me either, it comes in effect just for singles earning more than 250000 Euro per year and married couples earming more than 500000 Euro per year. Net income. I don't come even close to this income, so I don't care. But I can imagine that a lot of rich people may turn their back on Germany, they already did it in the past.

    What can I say? We got the government we deserved. For years, people voted with the wrong people and Mrs. Merkel succesfully got rid of the best people in her party, including the most promising Mr. Merz, a very clever young economics specialist. It is everything about power now, they couldn't care less about the people. The UK was very clever not to join the Euro zone. As much as I appreciate the Euro since I don't have to exchange money during my vacations to Italy, France, etc., it was a bad idea in my opinion, especially because of the "stability" agreement. It forces Euro zone countries to NOT exceed more than 3% debt (related to the income of the whole population, sorry, I don't have the right english word for it). This debt limitation actually creates the biggest problem of all: the state can't spend more money to lower taxes. It is a vicious circle I'm afraid.



    You probably meant GDP. I'm with you on the economy though. Too many people in Europe who have no clue how to solve the fiasco and lack of jobs, but are still taking in immigrants who automatically land on welfare...

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    RC said:
    I buy my next Porsche cars for the company, I don't give a damn about VAT. It is fully deductable, same applies to other stuff I need.



    A Porsche as a necessary business expense? hahahahahahahaha

    Stephen

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    That takes away 3% of the possible discount I could achieve by importing my car from Germany. Damn!

    Plus a special tax on high income earners in Germany.

    This Merkel/Schroeder grand coalition is already sounding terrible!



    I agree that the "grand coalition" may not be the best solution for Germany and raising taxes surely isn't a clever way to improve the economical situation in Germany.
    I would use the same method Ronald Reagan used back in the 80s to "cure" the US economy: he lowered taxes a lot and increased state spendings. Our government wants to do the contrary, I'm afraid this is the best way to make the economy even worse.
    To get back to the VAT: since I buy my next Porsche cars for the company, I don't give a damn about VAT. It is fully deductable, same applies to other stuff I need. But yes, 3% more tax is a lot, especially nowadays when people are looking at each and every cent they spend.
    The tax for high income doesn't affect me either, it comes in effect just for singles earning more than 250000 Euro per year and married couples earming more than 500000 Euro per year. Net income. I don't come even close to this income, so I don't care. But I can imagine that a lot of rich people may turn their back on Germany, they already did it in the past.

    What can I say? We got the government we deserved. For years, people voted with the wrong people and Mrs. Merkel succesfully got rid of the best people in her party, including the most promising Mr. Merz, a very clever young economics specialist. It is everything about power now, they couldn't care less about the people. The UK was very clever not to join the Euro zone. As much as I appreciate the Euro since I don't have to exchange money during my vacations to Italy, France, etc., it was a bad idea in my opinion, especially because of the "stability" agreement. It forces Euro zone countries to NOT exceed more than 3% debt (related to the income of the whole population, sorry, I don't have the right english word for it). This debt limitation actually creates the biggest problem of all: the state can't spend more money to lower taxes. It is a vicious circle I'm afraid.



    Just a small note RC - Belgium still has an enormous debt rate - thanks to our politicians of the old generation. Now when the EUR was launched - there was 1 specific country pointing to us -debt rate compared to net income- that absolutely wanted to implement the 3% Maastricht protocol...indeed Germany. The last 7 years we got a balanced budget -together with Finland- although most european countries did not respect the Maastricht protocol... Any idea how much Bush spent the last few years in the US? The went far above the 3% - whether you like it or not someone will have to pay for it some day. I still believe in the European project - China and India is coming and we have the US - if European countries still would like to play a role in the world we absolutely have to work together more closely.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    Robert2005 said:
    Any idea how much Bush spent the last few years in the US? The went far above the 3% - whether you like it or not someone will have to pay for it some day. I still believe in the European project - China and India is coming and we have the US - if European countries still would like to play a role in the world we absolutely have to work together more closely.



    In my opinion, the European "project" has failed. You can't force people to live together and adapt the same rights, rules and laws. This is a long process which has to come "naturally" by living (or even fighting) together. I think the USA is a good example for that, nothing comes for free. Now take Turkey, half a modern state, half a state still ruled by pretty primitive people, how would this fit into the EC? Not to speak about the "forced" accelerated membership of Romania and Bulgaria, countries which will need decades to change, not to speak about the billions which they'll need, billions a lot of EC countries, especially the big payers like Germany or France, don't have anymore. Everything went too fast, look at the german unification. I understood the need of a fast unification due to an uncertain Russia by that time but nowadays, I don't think there is really a need to hurry and speed up things, on the contrary. Like it or not but I see things from a different perspective. Some Europeans want a United States of Europe to compete (economically and politically) with the USA, China, India and maybe Japan. I think that there can be only a united "West", formed by the EC, the USA/Canada, maybe some middle eastern countries, South Africa and even some asian countries like Taiwan or Korea.
    Don't forget that without the Americans, there wouldn't be even a little chance of a united Europe. And look at the political agendas each and every european country has, how should this work? France, Germany and some other EC countries opposed the US regarding the Iraq war. The UK, the Netherlands, Italy, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Poland, etc. are supporting the US troops in Iraq with own troops. Not to speak about the very open minded support of the upcoming new EC member Romania or Hungary, which is already a EC member and helped in training US/Iraqi fighters slightly before the Iraq war began. The only reason why Germany didn't support the US was the social democratic government, the surprisingly anti-US feelings in former east Germany (some still have very positive feelings about the Russians, very very surprising, this is what propaganda can do to you) and of course the german media which never liked conservative US presidents. I don't remember the german media criticizing Pres. Clinton for sending a few dozends of cruise missiles over to Afghanistan to kill Bin Laden, this is actually why he got so p.ss.d on the Americans. Well, like a brazilian diplomat told me once while we were playing snooker: politics is like a slut.

    Have you ever wondered why the US economy is by far better off than the german economy? And the US spends huge amounts of money for their army and their current war in Iraq.
    When Ronald Reagan cut taxes and raised debts, he was warned in the same manner. Now look what happened in the end. Think logical: how can a state like the US or Germany go bankrupt? Or better tell me something else: what is the BIGGEST problem in Europe right now? Right. Unemployment. Less employed people, less taxes for the state, more spending for unemployment and social security, etc. which ends in not enough taxes overall and too much spending. So how to brake the vicious circle? Simple. You have to reduce unnecessary cost but at the same time you also need to lower taxes to stimulate the economy.
    Germany is right now in a very difficult situation and I'm afraid most people don't really realize it over here. More and more companies are cutting short jobs and some are even moving their business or part of their business outside Germany. Both result in more unemployment and less taxes.

    If you want to run a sucessful business, you have to invest first. If you don't have money, you have to lend it. If the german state raises taxes and lowers unemployment payments/social security/etc., this will result in pretty nasty society problems. Look at France: a bunch of frustrated kids are able to do damage for hundreds of millions of Euro in a few nights. And nobody was really able to control them. How is this possible? Simple: the state lost control over immigration and education.

    We need a firm hand, lower taxes and companies who take responsibility and don't try to see the profit only.
    And we need to lower bureaucracy, to simplify tax laws and to make work and investing money interesting again.

    I'm afraid Europe isn't the "innovative" model I believed in a few years ago. Although the US government needs to learn a lot about foreign policy, mentality AND propaganda, they are actually moving forward, no matter if the direction is annoying or questionable to some people. But over here in Europe, we're talking and talking. And what I hate about the german government is the fact that it is hypocrite. They criticize the US government for their Iraq policy but german special forces are supporting US troops in ACTIVE combat in Afghanistan (our chancellor called this "seek and search" operations but he forgot the "and destroy". ) Not to speak about the iraqi soldiers, police men and security people who get training from german specialists in neighboring Kuweit and Oman. And nobody really likes to talk about terror attacks in Europe which have been stopped, like the planned attack on the christmas market in Bruxelles. People over here in Germany also ignore that a couple of hundreds(!) of Germans already died killed by Al Kaida and supporters in New York, Tunesia, Egypt, Indonesia, Afghanistan, etc.

    Sorry but I lost my faith into the idea of a unified Europe. I'm an international type of guy, I love other cultures, I think I can always learn from other people, no matter if they're fromt he US, Japan, China, the Middle East, Asia, Africa or South America. But I also HATE people who have only hatred and fanatism in their mind, I'm not naive and due to my work in the diplomatic service, I think I have a pretty good feeling about such people. I had friends from allover the world, I was invited to the homes of Americans, Arabs, Japanese, South Americans, etc. and I really enjoyed it. And although we didn't always agree about politics, we didn't cut each others throat, on the contrary, after some passionate discussions, we had a lot of fun together.

    I started to think in a brighter perspective, not Europe anymore but the WORLD. Unfortunately there are always people like those who killed the innocent wedding society in Amman/Jordan yesterday and who give a damn about world friendship and good relations.

    But enough said, I think that Germany is on the brink to going DOWN and I'm not sure if all states in Europe will actually find this to be a problem. When Germany had the unification, a lot of people I knew from other countries immediately referred to the 3rd Reich and other stupid things. I realized then that we may have overcome the well known maniac AH and the 2nd WW but the feelings of the people towards Germany are still mixed. They don't understand that a stable and wealthy Germany is actually the best guarantee that such horrible things will never happen again over here.

    Sorry for the long ranting...right now I'm not someone you should talk about politics to. I'm ANGRY...

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Robert2005 said:
    Any idea how much Bush spent the last few years in the US? The went far above the 3% - whether you like it or not someone will have to pay for it some day. I still believe in the European project - China and India is coming and we have the US - if European countries still would like to play a role in the world we absolutely have to work together more closely.



    In my opinion, the European "project" has failed. You can't force people to live together and adapt the same rights, rules and laws. This is a long process which has to come "naturally" by living (or even fighting) together. I think the USA is a good example for that, nothing comes for free. Now take Turkey, half a modern state, half a state still ruled by pretty primitive people, how would this fit into the EC? Not to speak about the "forced" accelerated membership of Romania and Bulgaria, countries which will need decades to change, not to speak about the billions which they'll need, billions a lot of EC countries, especially the big payers like Germany or France, don't have anymore. Everything went too fast, look at the german unification. I understood the need of a fast unification due to an uncertain Russia by that time but nowadays, I don't think there is really a need to hurry and speed up things, on the contrary. Like it or not but I see things from a different perspective. Some Europeans want a United States of Europe to compete (economically and politically) with the USA, China, India and maybe Japan. I think that there can be only a united "West", formed by the EC, the USA/Canada, maybe some middle eastern countries, South Africa and even some asian countries like Taiwan or Korea.
    Don't forget that without the Americans, there wouldn't be even a little chance of a united Europe. And look at the political agendas each and every european country has, how should this work? France, Germany and some other EC countries opposed the US regarding the Iraq war. The UK, the Netherlands, Italy, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Poland, etc. are supporting the US troops in Iraq with own troops. Not to speak about the very open minded support of the upcoming new EC member Romania or Hungary, which is already a EC member and helped in training US/Iraqi fighters slightly before the Iraq war began. The only reason why Germany didn't support the US was the social democratic government, the surprisingly anti-US feelings in former east Germany (some still have very positive feelings about the Russians, very very surprising, this is what propaganda can do to you) and of course the german media which never liked conservative US presidents. I don't remember the german media criticizing Pres. Clinton for sending a few dozends of cruise missiles over to Afghanistan to kill Bin Laden, this is actually why he got so p.ss.d on the Americans. Well, like a brazilian diplomat told me once while we were playing snooker: politics is like a slut.

    Have you ever wondered why the US economy is by far better off than the german economy? And the US spends huge amounts of money for their army and their current war in Iraq.
    When Ronald Reagan cut taxes and raised debts, he was warned in the same manner. Now look what happened in the end. Think logical: how can a state like the US or Germany go bankrupt? Or better tell me something else: what is the BIGGEST problem in Europe right now? Right. Unemployment. Less employed people, less taxes for the state, more spending for unemployment and social security, etc. which ends in not enough taxes overall and too much spending. So how to brake the vicious circle? Simple. You have to reduce unnecessary cost but at the same time you also need to lower taxes to stimulate the economy.
    Germany is right now in a very difficult situation and I'm afraid most people don't really realize it over here. More and more companies are cutting short jobs and some are even moving their business or part of their business outside Germany. Both result in more unemployment and less taxes.

    If you want to run a sucessful business, you have to invest first. If you don't have money, you have to lend it. If the german state raises taxes and lowers unemployment payments/social security/etc., this will result in pretty nasty society problems. Look at France: a bunch of frustrated kids are able to do damage for hundreds of millions of Euro in a few nights. And nobody was really able to control them. How is this possible? Simple: the state lost control over immigration and education.

    We need a firm hand, lower taxes and companies who take responsibility and don't try to see the profit only.
    And we need to lower bureaucracy, to simplify tax laws and to make work and investing money interesting again.

    I'm afraid Europe isn't the "innovative" model I believed in a few years ago. Although the US government needs to learn a lot about foreign policy, mentality AND propaganda, they are actually moving forward, no matter if the direction is annoying or questionable to some people. But over here in Europe, we're talking and talking. And what I hate about the german government is the fact that it is hypocrite. They criticize the US government for their Iraq policy but german special forces are supporting US troops in ACTIVE combat in Afghanistan (our chancellor called this "seek and search" operations but he forgot the "and destroy". ) Not to speak about the iraqi soldiers, police men and security people who get training from german specialists in neighboring Kuweit and Oman. And nobody really likes to talk about terror attacks in Europe which have been stopped, like the planned attack on the christmas market in Bruxelles. People over here in Germany also ignore that a couple of hundreds(!) of Germans already died killed by Al Kaida and supporters in New York, Tunesia, Egypt, Indonesia, Afghanistan, etc.

    Sorry but I lost my faith into the idea of a unified Europe. I'm an international type of guy, I love other cultures, I think I can always learn from other people, no matter if they're fromt he US, Japan, China, the Middle East, Asia, Africa or South America. But I also HATE people who have only hatred and fanatism in their mind, I'm not naive and due to my work in the diplomatic service, I think I have a pretty good feeling about such people. I had friends from allover the world, I was invited to the homes of Americans, Arabs, Japanese, South Americans, etc. and I really enjoyed it. And although we didn't always agree about politics, we didn't cut each others throat, on the contrary, after some passionate discussions, we had a lot of fun together.

    I started to think in a brighter perspective, not Europe anymore but the WORLD. Unfortunately there are always people like those who killed the innocent wedding society in Amman/Jordan yesterday and who give a damn about world friendship and good relations.

    But enough said, I think that Germany is on the brink to going DOWN and I'm not sure if all states in Europe will actually find this to be a problem. When Germany had the unification, a lot of people I knew from other countries immediately referred to the 3rd Reich and other stupid things. I realized then that we may have overcome the well known maniac AH and the 2nd WW but the feelings of the people towards Germany are still mixed. They don't understand that a stable and wealthy Germany is actually the best guarantee that such horrible things will never happen again over here.

    Sorry for the long ranting...right now I'm not someone you should talk about politics to. I'm ANGRY...



    RC,

    I would have to agree with you, and I have a Ph.D. in economics. Less taxes, along with less rules and regulations - especially a reduction in the welfare state, which gives people an incentive not to work, and the German economy would take off like a rocket. I would suggest cuts in taxes that match cuts in government spending. Can you imagine how big Porsche would get if it were able to hold the line on its prices for 4 to 5 years as a result of a cut in its tax bill and lower costs for meeting government regulations?

    Unfortunately in the United States, the President and the U.S. Congress are spending the country into poverty. This burden of spending will drive more businesses out of the United States and into China and India.

    Regarding the euro currency, I have a friend who is a senior economist at the U.S. Federal Reserve Board, and I remember him telling me that he thought the Germans had made a big mistake in giving up the Deutsche Mark, the most solid currency in the world, to become part of the euro currency block. I totally agree with him. Giving up one's currency means that a country is giving up its political as well as economic sovereignty. Now, if Germany were to need to run large budget deficits to restore full employment, it cannot do so. Only a country with an independent currency can run larger budget deficits, over a 3 - 6 year period, without long-term harm. The United States has only been able to run large deficits for a longer time because the U.S. dollar is a reserve currency, meaning that the governments (that is, the central banks) of other countries are willing to hold it in order to promote exports to the U.S. If that desire to hold U.S. dollars ever ends, you would see the dollar drop like a rock in a bucket of water.

    Finally, I did not mind hearing your discourse on the political and economic scene in Germany. Many in the U.S. are also disgusted with our political leaders (and I point to the politicians in both major U.S. political parties, the Democrats and the Republicans) as they are power mad. They care little or nothing for the average citizen, viewing him or her as an object to be taxed and regulated into submission.

    There is even a rumor that the U.S. will implement a VAT here, and that would raise the price of imported automobiles, especially Porsches, by $15,000 - $20,000. That is another reason why I placed my order for a 997S a few weeks ago, mainly to get delivery in early 2006 before the U.S. Congress and the President raises taxes.

    Hope that my own political and economic rant did not bother you or anyone else viewing this site.

    Regards,

    Jim

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    To be utterly simplistic, have no worries re: present/future US economy as long as smartest&hungriest kids from places like IITs in India want/are able to come to Stanford for grad school in CompSci and can aspire to be founders of future Microsofts/Oracles/Googles/Yahoos, etc (ironically, a billionaire who's one of smartest guys in SilicVy is a German immigrant who came to US for grad school@ Stanford, was a co-founder of Sun and was a major early Google investor) and smartest&hungriest kids from places like Ohio want/are able to go to places like Wharton undergrad and can realistically aspire to be founders of major hedge funds by their 30's ......

    People will be people....most people born into 1st World economies assume they deserve a generous paycheck and benefits, etc as a birthright, no matter how unproductive they are....unfortunately/fortunately, in a competitive world, someone smarter and/or harder working (from various national origins) will be (and should be) capturing that share of wealth creation if somewhat efficient global mkts prevail.....

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    To be utterly simplistic, have no worries re: present/future US economy as long as smartest&hungriest kids from places like IITs in India want/are able to come to Stanford for grad school in CompSci and can aspire to be founders of future Microsofts/Oracles/Googles/Yahoos, etc (ironically, a billionaire who's one of smartest guys in SilicVy is a German immigrant who came to US for grad school@ Stanford, was a co-founder of Sun and was a major early Google investor) and smartest&hungriest kids from places like Ohio want/are able to go to places like Wharton undergrad and can realistically aspire to be founders of major hedge funds by their 30's ......




    The thing is that all these capable Chinese and Indian people start to develop a preference to return to their home country sooner or later... Naturally, this trend will gain momentum as the wealth of their home country increases.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Germany.

    Its a mess.A hopelessly low birthrate and ageing population where everyone wants to get all the services they can from a declining economy and where class is pitted against class for political gain. You have layers of ridiculously expensive bureacracy that are kafkaesque from the EU all the way down.

    Sorry, RC, but the German military has been a joke in Afghanistan.With the exception of the few SF teams they have in country, the regular German units there have been timid, useless and nothing more than armed tourists. They are a national disgrace for their combat avoidance, lack of initiative and zero fighting spirit. Worse yet they dont even realize that or want to admit it. Blame it on the political leadership, the culture or whatever, but they are a joke force of suntan seekers from a costume shop. Excluding the KsK, the German military in the past ten years
    cannot name, or even guess the name, of a SINGLE bandit, Taliban, terrorist, Somali warlord, Balkan butcher or Afghani drug runner it has fired even one bullet at. Their score is zero for 10 years of overseas deployment in the worlds hotspots.

    Schroeder and Chirac both deluded themselves with their geo political concept of a "third" power player in the world. They lacked the military, financial and moral courage to pull off a useless scheme to dominate Europe and managed to alienate it from the US and Britain for no real benefit.

    I wish Germany had better times coming soon, but German politics have evolved into a talking shop of impossible ideas and economic theories that do not work in the real world.

    To get moving again they should be looking at Hong Kong's or Singapores tax and business structure, not at the entrails of socialist road kill.

    Just put a fence around it and just call it a Automotive Disneyland with nice scenery and good beer.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Germany.

    Its a mess.A hopelessly low birthrate and ageing population where everyone wants to get all the services they can from a declining economy and where class is pitted against class for political gain. You have layers of ridiculously expensive bureacracy that are kafkaesque from the EU all the way down.

    Sorry, RC, but the German military has been a joke in Afghanistan.With the exception of the few SF teams they have in country, the regular German units there have been timid, useless and nothing more than armed tourists. They are a national disgrace for their combat avoidance, lack of initiative and zero fighting spirit. Worse yet they dont even realize that or want to admit it. Blame it on the political leadership, the culture or whatever, but they are a joke force of suntan seekers from a costume shop. Excluding the KsK, the German military in the past ten years
    cannot name, or even guess the name, of a SINGLE bandit, Taliban, terrorist, Somali warlord, Balkan butcher or Afghani drug runner it has fired even one bullet at. Their score is zero for 10 years of overseas deployment in the worlds hotspots.

    Schroeder and Chirac both deluded themselves with their geo political concept of a "third" power player in the world. They lacked the military, financial and moral courage to pull off a useless scheme to dominate Europe and managed to alienate it from the US and Britain for no real benefit.

    I wish Germany had better times coming soon, but German politics have evolved into a talking shop of impossible ideas and economic theories that do not work in the real world.

    To get moving again they should be looking at Hong Kong's or Singapores tax and business structure, not at the entrails of socialist road kill.

    Just put a fence around it and just call it a Automotive Disneyland with nice scenery and good beer.



    I think you are exaggerating quite a bit

    Germans like to moan. However, the situation is not as bad as many think. Recent years have put substantial optimization pressure on those companies who survived the downturn of the economy. These companies are well prepared for the road ahead. Germany is (and will remain) a leading economic player, maybe also as we do not waste too much money on military ventures...

    P.S.: Let me mention Enron, WorldCom, GM, Ford, textile industry, etc. We did not have a comparable case in the last decades. The German system cannot be that bad

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    I wish I was exaggerating, but sadly its all true.

    The remarks about Germany's declining birth rate, political climate and military ineffectiveness are all 100% accurate.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    I wish I was exaggerating, but sadly its all true.

    The remarks about Germany's declining birth rate, political climate and military ineffectiveness are all 100% accurate.




    Are you a German resident or do you have close links to Germany? Otherwise I really ask myself why you expect to know more about the country I am living in than myself...

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    I wish I was exaggerating, but sadly its all true.

    The remarks about Germany's declining birth rate, political climate and military ineffectiveness are all 100% accurate.




    Are you a German resident or do you have close links to Germany? Otherwise I really ask myself why you expect to know more about the country I am living in than myself...



    I have some close links to Germany.

    If you are interested in reading about Germany's Military Tourists in Afghanistan, their lack of initiative and field timidness, go to the 19 August 2005 Spiegel Online. Its in both German and English. I could add more from personal knowledge, but the article covers it well enough.

    The statistically negative rate of birth in Germany,except for Herr Peich and his 13 kids is covered well here:

    http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2253

    The current political and economic mess is obvious enough.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Germany.

    Its a mess.A hopelessly low birthrate and ageing population where everyone wants to get all the services they can from a declining economy and where class is pitted against class for political gain. You have layers of ridiculously expensive bureacracy that are kafkaesque from the EU all the way down.

    Sorry, RC, but the German military has been a joke in Afghanistan.With the exception of the few SF teams they have in country, the regular German units there have been timid, useless and nothing more than armed tourists. They are a national disgrace for their combat avoidance, lack of initiative and zero fighting spirit. Worse yet they dont even realize that or want to admit it. Blame it on the political leadership, the culture or whatever, but they are a joke force of suntan seekers from a costume shop. Excluding the KsK, the German military in the past ten years
    cannot name, or even guess the name, of a SINGLE bandit, Taliban, terrorist, Somali warlord, Balkan butcher or Afghani drug runner it has fired even one bullet at. Their score is zero for 10 years of overseas deployment in the worlds hotspots.

    Schroeder and Chirac both deluded themselves with their geo political concept of a "third" power player in the world. They lacked the military, financial and moral courage to pull off a useless scheme to dominate Europe and managed to alienate it from the US and Britain for no real benefit.

    I wish Germany had better times coming soon, but German politics have evolved into a talking shop of impossible ideas and economic theories that do not work in the real world.

    To get moving again they should be looking at Hong Kong's or Singapores tax and business structure, not at the entrails of socialist road kill.

    Just put a fence around it and just call it a Automotive Disneyland with nice scenery and good beer.



    As far as alienating the EU from the US, your president should take credit for that one. His entire Iraq episode is resented by most Europeans, so don't go around vlaming Chirac an Schroeder for it. Agreed, they're incompetent, but they aren't warmongers.
    A "third power" can and IMO should exist, so we don't get dictated what to do from the Americans (THEY are the ones pressuring us to take in Turkey, in order to weaken the EU itself) all the time.
    Regarding exonomic models, I STRONGLY agree that the socialistic path would probably bury us, but honestly, the US has lots of poverty along with the oitrageously rich, so this model won't work for us either (nobody has been shot here for his wallet EVER). The principles could be used, though, to make us a better state than the US could ever hope to be (OK, that last sentence was a provocation ).

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    RC, You're right, it is nice to hear one European who have the same point of view than me. And I love Ronald Reagan too. But politics in my country have only one goals; everybody must be poor, because if you become rich you don't vote for socialist ( in general ).

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    mljd said:
    RC, You're right, it is nice to hear one European who have the same point of view than me. And I love Ronald Reagan too. But politics in my country have only one goals; everybody must be poor, because if you become rich you don't vote for socialist ( in general ).



    Ronald Reagan was until recently the worst president in US history (in my opinion). Regarding socialists, there are way too many in Europe, but we really shouldn't just jump head over heels into the liberalized economic fray or we might end up with some very unpleasant results.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Crash, the whole Chirac-Schroeder geo political fantasy began well before 911 and the US going into Iraq. The idea of Franco-German political and financial leadership for Europe has been a failed reocurring theme for many decades.

    Germany basically has a unfortunate recent history and not much luck now.

    Even before WW1, the US and Germany almost went to war over German intervention in Haiti that was instigated by Herman Goerings father, who was the German ambassador there at that time.

    German naval interference with Dewey in the Phillipines during the Spanish American War almost set off another war.

    WW1 was a disaster. The German post WW1 era was a disaster and WW2 was a disaster.

    Only the post war era showed any luck and that was funded by the US Marshal plan.

    Now post modern Germany is in another financial political mess. Its sad. Nobody likes seeing it.

    Has there been any period in Germany history where there was economic growth and no "national disasters" for more than three generations in a row? I dont think so.

    Germany needs to reinvent itself economically. Look at Singapore and Hong Kong and their tax rates. They are booming while Germany staggers around on sleeping pills
    and pretends its 1967.

    You have unpleasant results now from failed economics. If it keeps going as it is, the national bird will be the ostrich and whats left of Lufthansa will be making one way flights to the US and Australia.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Crash, the whole Chirac-Schroeder geo political fantasy began well before 911 and the US going into Iraq. The idea of Franco-German political and financial leadership for Europe has been a failed reocurring theme for many decades.

    Germany basically has a unfortunate recent history and not much luck now.

    Even before WW1, the US and Germany almost went to war over German intervention in Haiti that was instigated by Herman Goerings father, who was the German ambassador there at that time.

    German naval interference with Dewey in the Phillipines during the Spanish American War almost set off another war.

    WW1 was a disaster. The German post WW1 era was a disaster and WW2 was a disaster.

    Only the post war era showed any luck and that was funded by the US Marshal plan.

    Now post modern Germany is in another financial political mess. Its sad. Nobody likes seeing it.

    Has there been any period in Germany history where there was economic growth and no "national disasters" for more than three generations in a row? I dont think so.

    Germany needs to reinvent itself economically. Look at Singapore and Hong Kong and their tax rates. They are booming while Germany staggers around on sleeping pills
    and pretends its 1967.

    You have unpleasant results now from failed economics. If it keeps going as it is the national bird will be the ostrich and whats left of Lufthansa will be making one way flights to the US and Australia.



    LOL at the last sentence . Like I said the economics need to change, but not in a way to mirror the US model. There HAS to be a way to keep a country economically stable and prosperous, while keeping poverty to a minimum (something the US failed to achieve). Regarding Germany's history, that is quite unfortunate, although 60 years ago they came extremely close. Luckily, they screwed themselves the last time...

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Crash, consider this. We have 300 million people, more international responsibilities and an entire strata of people who self perpetuate their own poverty.

    Germany is different. If anything you could adapt more Radical economic policies than the US has and be more successful. Most europeans dont know this, but in the US we feel overwhelmed with state, county and national tax's, paperwork and regulations. We kicked the English out for a
    2.5% tax, now if you add up all the personal and consumer tax's a individual works 7 months a year just to pay the government.

    Unless Germans start to make more Germans you arent going to have a Germany anymore. And your birth rates will not go up from being a net negative number until there is a increased sense of future success for your country, its just human nature.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Robert2005 said:
    Any idea how much Bush spent the last few years in the US? The went far above the 3% - whether you like it or not someone will have to pay for it some day. I still believe in the European project - China and India is coming and we have the US - if European countries still would like to play a role in the world we absolutely have to work together more closely.



    In my opinion, the European "project" has failed. You can't force people to live together and adapt the same rights, rules and laws. This is a long process which has to come "naturally" by living (or even fighting) together. I think the USA is a good example for that, nothing comes for free. Now take Turkey, half a modern state, half a state still ruled by pretty primitive people, how would this fit into the EC? Not to speak about the "forced" accelerated membership of Romania and Bulgaria, countries which will need decades to change, not to speak about the billions which they'll need, billions a lot of EC countries, especially the big payers like Germany or France, don't have anymore. Everything went too fast, look at the german unification. I understood the need of a fast unification due to an uncertain Russia by that time but nowadays, I don't think there is really a need to hurry and speed up things, on the contrary. Like it or not but I see things from a different perspective. Some Europeans want a United States of Europe to compete (economically and politically) with the USA, China, India and maybe Japan. I think that there can be only a united "West", formed by the EC, the USA/Canada, maybe some middle eastern countries, South Africa and even some asian countries like Taiwan or Korea.
    Don't forget that without the Americans, there wouldn't be even a little chance of a united Europe. And look at the political agendas each and every european country has, how should this work? France, Germany and some other EC countries opposed the US regarding the Iraq war. The UK, the Netherlands, Italy, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Poland, etc. are supporting the US troops in Iraq with own troops. Not to speak about the very open minded support of the upcoming new EC member Romania or Hungary, which is already a EC member and helped in training US/Iraqi fighters slightly before the Iraq war began. The only reason why Germany didn't support the US was the social democratic government, the surprisingly anti-US feelings in former east Germany (some still have very positive feelings about the Russians, very very surprising, this is what propaganda can do to you) and of course the german media which never liked conservative US presidents. I don't remember the german media criticizing Pres. Clinton for sending a few dozends of cruise missiles over to Afghanistan to kill Bin Laden, this is actually why he got so p.ss.d on the Americans. Well, like a brazilian diplomat told me once while we were playing snooker: politics is like a slut.

    Have you ever wondered why the US economy is by far better off than the german economy? And the US spends huge amounts of money for their army and their current war in Iraq.
    When Ronald Reagan cut taxes and raised debts, he was warned in the same manner. Now look what happened in the end. Think logical: how can a state like the US or Germany go bankrupt? Or better tell me something else: what is the BIGGEST problem in Europe right now? Right. Unemployment. Less employed people, less taxes for the state, more spending for unemployment and social security, etc. which ends in not enough taxes overall and too much spending. So how to brake the vicious circle? Simple. You have to reduce unnecessary cost but at the same time you also need to lower taxes to stimulate the economy.
    Germany is right now in a very difficult situation and I'm afraid most people don't really realize it over here. More and more companies are cutting short jobs and some are even moving their business or part of their business outside Germany. Both result in more unemployment and less taxes.

    If you want to run a sucessful business, you have to invest first. If you don't have money, you have to lend it. If the german state raises taxes and lowers unemployment payments/social security/etc., this will result in pretty nasty society problems. Look at France: a bunch of frustrated kids are able to do damage for hundreds of millions of Euro in a few nights. And nobody was really able to control them. How is this possible? Simple: the state lost control over immigration and education.

    We need a firm hand, lower taxes and companies who take responsibility and don't try to see the profit only.
    And we need to lower bureaucracy, to simplify tax laws and to make work and investing money interesting again.

    I'm afraid Europe isn't the "innovative" model I believed in a few years ago. Although the US government needs to learn a lot about foreign policy, mentality AND propaganda, they are actually moving forward, no matter if the direction is annoying or questionable to some people. But over here in Europe, we're talking and talking. And what I hate about the german government is the fact that it is hypocrite. They criticize the US government for their Iraq policy but german special forces are supporting US troops in ACTIVE combat in Afghanistan (our chancellor called this "seek and search" operations but he forgot the "and destroy". ) Not to speak about the iraqi soldiers, police men and security people who get training from german specialists in neighboring Kuweit and Oman. And nobody really likes to talk about terror attacks in Europe which have been stopped, like the planned attack on the christmas market in Bruxelles. People over here in Germany also ignore that a couple of hundreds(!) of Germans already died killed by Al Kaida and supporters in New York, Tunesia, Egypt, Indonesia, Afghanistan, etc.

    Sorry but I lost my faith into the idea of a unified Europe. I'm an international type of guy, I love other cultures, I think I can always learn from other people, no matter if they're fromt he US, Japan, China, the Middle East, Asia, Africa or South America. But I also HATE people who have only hatred and fanatism in their mind, I'm not naive and due to my work in the diplomatic service, I think I have a pretty good feeling about such people. I had friends from allover the world, I was invited to the homes of Americans, Arabs, Japanese, South Americans, etc. and I really enjoyed it. And although we didn't always agree about politics, we didn't cut each others throat, on the contrary, after some passionate discussions, we had a lot of fun together.

    I started to think in a brighter perspective, not Europe anymore but the WORLD. Unfortunately there are always people like those who killed the innocent wedding society in Amman/Jordan yesterday and who give a damn about world friendship and good relations.

    But enough said, I think that Germany is on the brink to going DOWN and I'm not sure if all states in Europe will actually find this to be a problem. When Germany had the unification, a lot of people I knew from other countries immediately referred to the 3rd Reich and other stupid things. I realized then that we may have overcome the well known maniac AH and the 2nd WW but the feelings of the people towards Germany are still mixed. They don't understand that a stable and wealthy Germany is actually the best guarantee that such horrible things will never happen again over here.

    Sorry for the long ranting...right now I'm not someone you should talk about politics to. I'm ANGRY...



    I like a good discussion RC

    How can the European project have failed? It just started. Give it the time. I'm indeed in favor of a United States of Europe. Avoiding an European military conflict is just one of them. On long term this would save us lots of money. The sum of the military budget of all European countries is 1.5 times the American budget - yet we stand nowhere. Germany is facing the same problems as Belgium, so why not work together? Don't forget we got a German speaking community German is one of our 3 official languages. Aging people, high taxes, unemployment, etc. Germany is the motor of the European economy. If Germany goes down, we go down as well.

    The new countries that entered the EU zone have absolutely the right to. Looking at our history - they just are European countries! (not talking about Turkey) They belong to Europe. They will become our economic motor the next 10-15 years. Don't expect much growth here in the Western-European countries. We also need to work longer - overhere in Flanders people get their retirement when they are 55/56. Can you imagine how much this cost?

    Look at Spain/Portugal, when they entered the EU zone there was a lot of discussion. Look at how there economy is doing now.

    We're close to France, also here some frustrated youngsters burned a few cars in Brussels. Heared different interviews on the radio. And I can tell you that we have a totally different immigration policy compared to France. We're still not there but I think big brother France can learn a lot of us re immigration policy.

    Work, work, work and again work, that's the basis of our wellfare state. Our government introduced a new system, notional tax deduction. Briefly, invest your own money in your own company save you lots of money. Only exists in Denmark and Belgium now.

    I think we need more of these systems to get Europe out of the hole. And I really would like to have a German kinda license plate on my car. Damn this Belgium plate looks ugly.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Crash, the whole Chirac-Schroeder geo political fantasy began well before 911 and the US going into Iraq. The idea of Franco-German political and financial leadership for Europe has been a failed reocurring theme for many decades.

    Germany basically has a unfortunate recent history and not much luck now.

    Even before WW1, the US and Germany almost went to war over German intervention in Haiti that was instigated by Herman Goerings father, who was the German ambassador there at that time.

    German naval interference with Dewey in the Phillipines during the Spanish American War almost set off another war.

    WW1 was a disaster. The German post WW1 era was a disaster and WW2 was a disaster.

    Only the post war era showed any luck and that was funded by the US Marshal plan.

    Now post modern Germany is in another financial political mess. Its sad. Nobody likes seeing it.

    Has there been any period in Germany history where there was economic growth and no "national disasters" for more than three generations in a row? I dont think so.

    Germany needs to reinvent itself economically. Look at Singapore and Hong Kong and their tax rates. They are booming while Germany staggers around on sleeping pills
    and pretends its 1967.

    You have unpleasant results now from failed economics. If it keeps going as it is, the national bird will be the ostrich and whats left of Lufthansa will be making one way flights to the US and Australia.



    The question is whether the financial mess in the US is any smaller than in Germany.

    The major difference between the two countries is: the Germans have already started thinking about their financial mess

    You seem to be a rather pessimistic person (i.e. you would qualify very well as a German citizen ). Honestly, the situation is far from the worst-case scenario you are describing in your post.

    A country in a difficult situation is similar to a distressed corporation: you need the right frame of mind to make the required changes for a prosperous future...

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Hey Guys,

    Stop Craying. In Austria VAT is 20% and after VAT you also must pay NOVA which is 16%, on new cars.
    The NOVA is related to the cars.
    For an GOLF 5 TDI you pay about 9% Nova for example.
    For a 911 you pay 16%.

    It means the more expensive the car is, the higher is the NOVA Tax.


    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    Avoe said:
    Hey Guys,

    Stop Craying. In Austria VAT is 20% and after VAT you also must pay NOVA which is 16%, on new cars.
    The NOVA is related to the cars.
    For an GOLF 5 TDI you pay about 9% Nova for example.
    For a 911 you pay 16%.

    It means the more expensive the car is, the higher is the NOVA Tax.





    Ach, der Österreichische Volk muss sehr lustig sein. Aber nur wenn man einen Golf TDI kauft. God, I need to work on my German

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    LOL at the last sentence . Like I said the economics need to change, but not in a way to mirror the US model. There HAS to be a way to keep a country economically stable and prosperous, while keeping poverty to a minimum (something the US failed to achieve). Regarding Germany's history, that is quite unfortunate, although 60 years ago they came extremely close. Luckily, they screwed themselves the last time...



    You will always have the poor, middle, and upper class. I don't quite understand your statement regarding "keeping povery to a minimum (something the US failed to achieve)". That's a pretty open-ended statement. What's your poverty acceptibility level? 15%? 10%? If you look at our history, we have had our poverty level between 10-15% for the last 40 years. And we continue to throw a higher percentage of our GDP into the welfare system. Shouldn't it have gone down by now?

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    LOL at the last sentence . Like I said the economics need to change, but not in a way to mirror the US model. There HAS to be a way to keep a country economically stable and prosperous, while keeping poverty to a minimum (something the US failed to achieve). Regarding Germany's history, that is quite unfortunate, although 60 years ago they came extremely close. Luckily, they screwed themselves the last time...



    You will always have the poor, middle, and upper class. I don't quite understand your statement regarding "keeping povery to a minimum (something the US failed to achieve)". That's a pretty open-ended statement. What's your poverty acceptibility level? 15%? 10%? If you look at our history, we have had our poverty level between 10-15% for the last 40 years. And we continue to throw a higher percentage of our GDP into the welfare system. Shouldn't it have gone down by now?



    There is a bigger gap between rich and poor in the US than in the EU. (many reasons) If more low / middle class people are able to spend (more) money, the better your economy will sustain.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    LOL at the last sentence . Like I said the economics need to change, but not in a way to mirror the US model. There HAS to be a way to keep a country economically stable and prosperous, while keeping poverty to a minimum (something the US failed to achieve). Regarding Germany's history, that is quite unfortunate, although 60 years ago they came extremely close. Luckily, they screwed themselves the last time...



    You will always have the poor, middle, and upper class. I don't quite understand your statement regarding "keeping povery to a minimum (something the US failed to achieve)". That's a pretty open-ended statement. What's your poverty acceptibility level? 15%? 10%? If you look at our history, we have had our poverty level between 10-15% for the last 40 years. And we continue to throw a higher percentage of our GDP into the welfare system. Shouldn't it have gone down by now?



    Poverty was very virtually nonexistent where I live up until a few years ago but has risen up to almost 10% recently, mostly as a result of the textile industry collapse due to much cheaper chinese imports. Under NO circumstances am I saying that we (talking about the West in general) should up the welfare funding, but there are reforms considered here, which, if successful, will push more people into poverty, while invigorating the economy, for example flat tax rates - essential products would be taxed 21% instead of the curent 8,5%, as all the taxes would be set at the same level. There are more reforms, but since I am inexperienced in economics I will not delve deeper into this territory. Basically the EU is walking a fine line between a socialist welfare state which nobody really wants (most of the 15 members, France springs into mind) and a fully liberal economy which could have a huge impact on the quality of life (some of the new members, like Slovakia). Hopefully someone more experienced in european affairs and economics will jump in to clarify.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    Robert2005 said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    LOL at the last sentence . Like I said the economics need to change, but not in a way to mirror the US model. There HAS to be a way to keep a country economically stable and prosperous, while keeping poverty to a minimum (something the US failed to achieve). Regarding Germany's history, that is quite unfortunate, although 60 years ago they came extremely close. Luckily, they screwed themselves the last time...



    You will always have the poor, middle, and upper class. I don't quite understand your statement regarding "keeping povery to a minimum (something the US failed to achieve)". That's a pretty open-ended statement. What's your poverty acceptibility level? 15%? 10%? If you look at our history, we have had our poverty level between 10-15% for the last 40 years. And we continue to throw a higher percentage of our GDP into the welfare system. Shouldn't it have gone down by now?



    There is a bigger gap between rich and poor in the US than in the EU. (many reasons) If more low / middle class people are able to spend (more) money, the better your economy will sustain.



    True. The reforms many countries are planning would destroy the middle class.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    Robert2005 said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    LOL at the last sentence . Like I said the economics need to change, but not in a way to mirror the US model. There HAS to be a way to keep a country economically stable and prosperous, while keeping poverty to a minimum (something the US failed to achieve). Regarding Germany's history, that is quite unfortunate, although 60 years ago they came extremely close. Luckily, they screwed themselves the last time...



    You will always have the poor, middle, and upper class. I don't quite understand your statement regarding "keeping povery to a minimum (something the US failed to achieve)". That's a pretty open-ended statement. What's your poverty acceptibility level? 15%? 10%? If you look at our history, we have had our poverty level between 10-15% for the last 40 years. And we continue to throw a higher percentage of our GDP into the welfare system. Shouldn't it have gone down by now?



    There is a bigger gap between rich and poor in the US than in the EU. (many reasons) If more low / middle class people are able to spend (more) money, the better your economy will sustain.



    What's the relevance of the first statement to the second?

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    For Crash : It's right that if you see only the point of view of Europeans, Reagan isn't a good president for Europeans for only one reason : If Reagan was never president, USA will not be now the 1st power of the world. I'm European and I hope that some day I will live in USA. If I can make just a remark, see the statistics and read one book write by Reagan.

    For all : regarding poverty, one poor people in USA are the middle class in France. And that is statistics.... The rest is only European media interpretation.

     
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