Crown

Board: Porsche Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    GTlover:
     

    First, I dont know how Marius is / was or whatever he/she did on Rennteam or not - its nice to be blamed for something of which I have nothing to do with..usually in other forums people welcome you..this also what I do when I meet new people..but there seem to be very special rules here..

     

    Marius was a guy that came to this forum only the ' p.ss people off '' arguing anything and just being very negative , arguing , and basically being a troll.

    You had a ' few'  little resemblences with him, but actually you do seem serious and objectif.

    Marius came back with many different identitys...that's why people are a bit jumpy now. Welcome to the forum and I hope you will find your place here as we also need not counter arguing 

    SmileySmiley

    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    GTlover:
    Gnil:
    trip:

    While I think the times for the 991 are obviously impressive, GTlover does raise an interesting question. What can account for such poor wet performance?

    I agree. The wet time is Smiley . How come was it that bad ? It am very interested to find out. Was it exterior conditions or something witht he car ?

    First, I dont know how Marius is / was or whatever he/she did on Rennteam or not - its nice to be blamed for something of which I have nothing to do with..usually in other forums people welcome you..this also what I do when I meet new people..but there seem to be very special rules here..

     

    I officially welcome you on behalf of Rennteam Smiley  We usually go directly to the discussion part... Sorry for that Smiley


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    GTlover:
    So to answer again the question:From these facts/numbers its obvious where the reason is - its not the car - different cars have considerably being becoming slower in the wet..its the tires which are developped to get better dry times on the NBR .whereas the loss on the wet times is just a "little side effect"..I know somebody  working in the tire industry in Germany and he tells me that manufacturers expect each time a drop of 2-3 seconds on ring times..they tell them that this goes hand in hand with a loss on wet performance..but they are so "greedy" on the dry times...marketing etc..

     

    I think that it is correct to assume that the tires are more focused on dry performance now than 2 or 3 years ago. However, the Zero's are still not comparable to the Sport Cup tires. Thus, the performance of the 991s is outstanding, if you ask me Smiley


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    I would agree with MKSGR- as commented by Walter R a couple of times on various occasions that so much time-improvements come these days over the latest tire-technology which obvioulsy is responsible for huge chunks of time-savings in the hand of the right driver. this in combination with a longer wheelbase and tweeks here and there resulting in ever better times. However, I am sure if you would count the shift-time of a manual vs PDK across a full NBR distance and subtract that from 7:33 of a GT3RS  would be a couple of seconds alone - then you take the longer wheelbase etc etc and then you will end up with the same savings probably 997s to 991s....


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    Like I said before, the P Zero sucks if not warmed up sufficiently and I assume that this is one of the reasons the performance on wet pavement sucks too. It may be a very capable tire on dry pavement, especially when having the right temperature but I actually prefer the Michelin Pilot Sport.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    GTlover:
    Gnil:
    trip:

    While I think the times for the 991 are obviously impressive, GTlover does raise an interesting question. What can account for such poor wet performance?

    I agree. The wet time is Smiley . How come was it that bad ? It am very interested to find out. Was it exterior conditions or something witht he car ?

    First, I dont know how Marius is / was or whatever he/she did on Rennteam or not - its nice to be blamed for something of which I have nothing to do with..usually in other forums people welcome you..this also what I do when I meet new people..but there seem to be very special rules here..

    Back to subject of the tires: well, if you look at the latest sport auto tests also for the 997 series - you could see than from around 2007/2008 the wet times have considerably been "increasing"--thus becoming slower.

    The 997 GT3 did a 1:29 in the wet..the 997 GT3RS MKII did already 1:36..the 997 GT2 RS is again 2 sec slower. !..The record as far as I remember is being held by a 997.1 GT3 of 1:27..

    So to answer again the question:From these facts/numbers its obvious where the reason is - its not the car - different cars have considerably being becoming slower in the wet..its the tires which are developped to get better dry times on the NBR .whereas the loss on the wet times is just a "little side effect"..I know somebody  working in the tire industry in Germany and he tells me that manufacturers expect each time a drop of 2-3 seconds on ring times..they tell them that this goes hand in hand with a loss on wet performance..but they are so "greedy" on the dry times...marketing etc..

    Its just my idea - but again - looking at the numbers there is a clear trend. As much as I am fan of the 997 GT cars..whats the point of having an RS GT3 being 7 seconds faster in the dry only to be again 6 sec. slower on the wet. By the way, as a regular Porsche Sports Cup attender, I can tell you that in the wet a GT2RS cannot drive away from a normal 997 GT3MKII..despite the 200hp more..anybody who is also competing in there would be able to confirm..or ask the winner of the 2011 Sports Cup series-who drives a GT2RS..of course in the dry its a different story..thats why he won the championship after 10 races..Smiley

    Welcome To Rennteam GTloverSmiley


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    RC:

    Like I said before, the P Zero sucks if not warmed up sufficiently and I assume that this is one of the reasons the performance on wet pavement sucks too.

    It is strange that a "maximum performance" tyre like the P Zero is worse in the wet/cold than the more track oriented semi-slick like the Michelin Cup? What is Pirelli's target market with the P Zero? Temperatures above 25 C and no rain most of the year?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    reginos:
    RC:

    Like I said before, the P Zero sucks if not warmed up sufficiently and I assume that this is one of the reasons the performance on wet pavement sucks too.

    It is strange that a "maximum performance" tyre like the P Zero is worse in the wet/cold than the more track oriented semi-slick like the Michelin Cup? What is Pirelli's target market with the P Zero? Temperatures above 25 C and no rain most of the year?


    --

    "Form follows function"

    This is even more strange as the PZero used to be quite capable in the wet - much better than the Michelins Smiley


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    reginos:
    RC:

    Like I said before, the P Zero sucks if not warmed up sufficiently and I assume that this is one of the reasons the performance on wet pavement sucks too.

    It is strange that a "maximum performance" tyre like the P Zero is worse in the wet/cold than the more track oriented semi-slick like the Michelin Cup? What is Pirelli's target market with the P Zero? Temperatures above 25 C and no rain most of the year?

    "Form follows function"

    yes - all very strange ideed..maybe it was a Dubai or Arizana version..

    I dont have the test in front of me-but I heard two other worrying things:

    1) Weight 1497Kg - correct? Why is this - ? thats not an improvement -or?

    2) Suspension setup: was apparently way off normal street cars and setup for race track..- correct?

    thanks,


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    How told you about that "special" setup? Same test car was driven by Auto Bild Sportscar edition as well(full test next issue). All 991S press cars equiped with PDCC/-20mm are build with the same suspension specs as will be all costumer cars. There is no "hidden agenda by Porsche" here.

    P Zero NO tires... Yes, they are tuned for max dry grip and mixture is little bit different then P Zero for Audi RS5 for example. But, what is the problem here? You forgot  that test car was equiped with optional wider wheels with 305 rear tires. This is a benifite at dry road or track since it will max out traction. I can tell you that with standard 295 rear tires 991S is faster on that wet test track but, at the same time probably slower on dry track.

    Then that 4s problem that you have... 4s between Ring time officially announced by Porsche and Ring time achieved by HvS. Huh... 7.40min for 991S preproduction mule driven by one of the best Porsche test drivers and 7.44min for 991S press car driven by HvS. See my point here?

    991 will be available with tires from other manufactures as well(Michelin for example).

    IMO you are having a strange animosity towards new 991. Ok, your right and your opinion. But, IMHO you are barking at the wrong tree somehow...


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    KresoF1:

     

    P Zero NO tires... Yes, they are tuned for max dry grip and mixture is little bit different then P Zero for Audi RS5 for example. But, what is the problem here? You forgot  that test car was equiped with optional wider wheels with 305 rear tires. This is a benifite at dry road or track since it will max out traction. I can tell you that with standard 295 rear tires 991S is faster on that wet test track but, at the same time probably slower on dry track.

    The issue that puzzled was how could the 991 on P Zero be slower than the older car on Cup tyres (not normal max performance ) in wet handling. Both cars used  305 rears.

    Do you (and your SA contacts) think is all down to the inferiority of P Zero (N rated) vis a vis even the Cups in the wet/cold?

    Perhaps PDCC is a disadvantage in the wet because the added stiffness, less roll might not help  Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    Wet road traction is pretty complicated thing to explain(specially since English is my third language). Ok, lets try...

    Did you notice that all sportscars recently tested by SA are slower on wet handling track then before? Are the tires which are more or less little bit tuned in their mixture and thread to maximum dry road(or track) traction the only reason for this?

    Partially yes. BUT... Things are more complicated. See, sportscar tested during the warm spring or summer days will most likely achieve better wet handling track time then the ones testes during autumn cold days.

    I also need to check out if  1.46,1 is maybe a typo? For example 1.36,1 would make much more sense.

    My opinion is that P Zero N0 are most probably the reason for this results.

    BTW, 1.10,4min for Hockenheim is absolutely fantastic time. If you look at the corner speed you can see that 991S is very, very fast.

    Also, 991S with normal PDCC(without -20mm) is only little bit faster on the track then 997.2S(with SPASM). So, if you want most sporty 991 then only way is to order PDCC/-20mm(Carrera S) or PASM/-20mm(Carrera).


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    KresoF1:

    Wet road traction is pretty complicated thing to explain(specially since English is my third language). Ok, lets try...

    Did you notice that all sportscars recently tested by SA are slower on wet handling track then before? Are the tires which are more or less little bit tuned in their mixture and thread to maximum dry road(or track) traction the only reason for this?

    Partially yes. BUT... Things are more complicated. See, sportscar tested during the warm spring or summer days will most likely achieve better wet handling track time then the ones testes during autumn cold days.

    I also need to check out if  1.46,1 is maybe a typo? For example 1.36,1 would make much more sense.

    My opinion is that P Zero N0 are most probably the reason for this results.

    BTW, 1.10,4min for Hockenheim is absolutely fantastic time. If you look at the corner speed you can see that 991S is very, very fast.

    Also, 991S with normal PDCC(without -20mm) is only little bit faster on the track then 997.2S(with SPASM). So, if you want most sporty 991 then only way is to order PDCC/-20mm(Carrera S) or PASM/-20mm(Carrera).

    Prosim Kreso,

    I couldnt agree more to this statement hereSmiley..yes - 1,10.4 is fast - or very fast - always depends on what to compare with.

    But two things about the 991S test I didnt like-you know: 1) the wet times - yes its 8seconds of the 997.2..but its 16seconds of f the 997.1..hell man..this is huge. More, the 991S got 1 point beacuse of the wet performance in the ranking..the same as a 997 GT2RS...but now apparently the masses of the normal 911 will probably have very delicate behaviour in the wet. And I can tell, after having driven 997.1 GT3, 997.2 GT3, 997 GT2 and 997 GT2RS...these cars are not easy in the rain. Even the 997.2 GT2 scores much better in the wet ..and this is a GT3..in the wet a normal Golf could pass a GT3..thats not a joke. Maybe the Michelin tyres are better - very probable-  but why did Porsche then equip their car with these Pirelli tyres..at least for this test?

    Second thing I didnt like: weight -obviously far away from the claimed firgures...

    Its not that I dont like the 991 - what I dont like is Porsche making big promises..it would have the same performance as GT3..etc..in the Sport Auto test, the 991 could not beat the GT3 in any element - whether it was slalom - nürburgring - wet  - weight etc. Why has Porsche done this.? .they are now becoming like Nissan and Ferrari.

    I dont like people claiming many things that cannot be shown by real facts...I dont whether you have a similar saying in your language..but I guess you understand what I mean..

    take care & look forward to your impressions on the 991S..


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    Part of the poor wethandling performance might be due to the suspension setup, the 991 featured more camber than factory recommendations suggest. Not sure how much of an effect this would be in wet conditions.

    GTlover, a warm welcome from me as well. The initial resentment you have experienced is due to some individuals posting controversial and somewhat disturbing comments just for the sake of it recently, hence the initial resentment. I can, in absolute terms, relate to the points you mentioned, and judging by the letters to the editor at SA we are not the only ones. Nonetheless four seconds difference on the Nordschleife is of negligible relevance as there are so many factors to take into consideration (tires, temperature, driver). The car is certainly an improvement over the predecessor but I do believe that Porsche will present a fleet of performance-oriented models in the future.


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    Ferdie, I fully agree with you.

    @GTIover: Your points about marketing things are valid ones indeed. Just, Porsche did not start this game-it is Nissan with its GTR Ring time...


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    Digressing a bit and since there has been discussion of the wet weather qualities of several tyres, I'd like to mention how good the Bridgestone N-rated are in the rain on my 997.2 compared to the Michelin PS I had before.

    It's been untypically rainy here for the past week with temperatures 8-10 C when raining. The Bridgestone have been excellent on highways and also on country roads and inspired a degree of confidence I've never felt with the Michelin. Even on the highway they could disperse standing water much more easily. Of course still care was required because of the car's characterisitcs.

    IMO for strictly road use they are the best all round N-rated tyres on the Carrera/ Carrera S.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    Completely agree regarding the characteristics of the Bridgestones. Had them on my 997.2 and found them to be really good in the wet.

    Anyone who know the roadmap for N-rated tires for the 20" 991? So far only Pirellis has been spotted. Wonder when Michelin Super Sports will be available and also BridgestonesSmiley. Based on the sportauto tests and using the car as a daily driver I would rather not have the Pirellis on my 991.


    --

    On Order: 991 C2S Basalt Black/Black - PDK, PSE, SPASM, SportChrono, etc.
    Sold: 997.2 C2S Meteor Grey/Black - PDK, PSE, LSD, SportChrono, etc.
    Sold: 997.1 C2S Black/Black - PSE, PCCB, -20mm/LSD, Short-shifter, SportChrono, etc.


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    MKSGR:
    reginos:
    RC:

    Like I said before, the P Zero sucks if not warmed up sufficiently and I assume that this is one of the reasons the performance on wet pavement sucks too.

    It is strange that a "maximum performance" tyre like the P Zero is worse in the wet/cold than the more track oriented semi-slick like the Michelin Cup? What is Pirelli's target market with the P Zero? Temperatures above 25 C and no rain most of the year?


    --

    "Form follows function"

    This is even more strange as the PZero used to be quite capable in the wet - much better than the Michelins Smiley

     

    Maybe it depends on the N versions used and the size ? My P Zero sucks big time, I already had two or three pretty hairy situations with my GTS and nope, I wasn't too fast. Mostly at lower temperatures (16-20°C) or when the tire wasn't warmed up sufficiently. Instantly sliding (I didn't even touch the throttle or brake) through a 120° curve at slightly over 100 kph in a forest wasn't the most pleasant thing I've been in, so you get my drift. I drove back, it was slightly wet but no oil or anything similar on the pavement. Maybe I shouldn't drive with Sport Plus active when I just cruise. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    RC:

     Maybe I shouldn't drive with Sport Plus active when I just cruise. Smiley

    I have found that in the rain the Normal mode is very bad for traction as well as for feel as you are in a higher gear than ideal under the circumstances.  Sport mode is the optimum I think.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    WHO CARES ABOUT TIMES ON WET SURFACES?mail

    You might as well piss into the wind.


    --

     


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    nberry:

    WHO CARES ABOUT TIMES ON WET SURFACES?mail

    I do each year a 4 days course on the Nürburgring.  Nearly every time we have one or more days of rain.

    So , I AM VERY INTERESTED to know how the car handles on the wet .  Also, I drive my car through the winter. Often the roads are wet, not also talking about the summer storms.... you can see now why some people await to know what happens on wet surfaces with the car.

    We are not all lucky enough to live in a climate like yours Smiley


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    nberry:

    WHO CARES ABOUT TIMES ON WET SURFACES?mail

    You might as well piss into the wind.

    Have you ever lived in Germany (or the UK for that matter) ? Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    nberry:

    WHO CARES ABOUT TIMES ON WET SURFACES?mail

    You might as well piss into the wind.

    Porsches are not garage queens for sunny sunday cruises along the boulevard,  wet performance is very important for Porsche owners worldwide.


    --


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    Carlos from Spain:
     

    Porsches are not garage queens for sunny sunday cruises along the boulevard,  wet performance is very important for Porsche owners worldwide.

    Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    Kreso, i couldnt agree more with you. The discussion about the wet handling are interesting but marginal imo. If u want better traction in the wet get different tyres.

    The results are really impressive and how could anyone complain on the track time of 7.44 when this is 3 secs better than the time of the actual turbo with 500 hp!! On Hockenheim the 991 kicks the turbos butt in an incredible way (1'12.1). Even the turbo S is slower in Hockenheim (1'10.9) and only on par on the ring! And dont forgt theat this test happened half a yesr ago so there wa sno quantum leap in technology in the meantime... Btw even wet handling was crap with 1'37.4. Just 2 points (and that Kreso explains why the 991 would just get one point).

    Just by comparing the test results between 997tt and the 991s it clearly shows that the 991 managed to take that step that the 997 as a mere evolution of the 996 has never been able to do! Smiley


    --

    turbolite


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    With all advances in electronics and AWD/traction/chassis technology, I'm pretty sure that the 991 Turbo will be an amazing performer, maybe too amazing and a serious competition for "real" track cars. Maybe not as much fun but at least as fast or faster.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    You probably are one of the few to track their cars in the rain. My comment was directed to everyday travel. If you are sane, you don't do spirited driving on wet roads. Handling for safety on wet roads is a different matter. I doubt very much people buy a car because it is faster when roads are wet.


    --

     


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    RC:

    With all advances in electronics and AWD/traction/chassis technology, I'm pretty sure that the 991 Turbo will be an amazing performer, maybe too amazing and a serious competition for "real" track cars. Maybe not as much fun but at least as fast or faster.

     

     That's my other thought exactly RC: the 991 tt with probably 530hp and 700 Nm as well as hopefully a well working 4wd will be a top contender for great track times. The 7.30 - 7.35 should easily be doable for Saurma and therefore put the car again - and finally - on par or in front of the GT-Rs of this world...  


    --

    turbolite


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    nberry:

    You probably are one of the few to track their cars in the rain. My comment was directed to everyday travel. If you are sane, you don't do spirited driving on wet roads. Handling for safety on wet roads is a different matter. I doubt very much people buy a car because it is faster when roads are wet.

    Maybe you are not used to rain were you live but rain is not driving on a frozen lake. If you drive spiritedly in the dry, you can drive spiritedly in the wet just as well, its just that spiritedly in the rain is slower than in the dry in order to keep the same safety buffer as in the dry. You can have fun and enjoy driving in the wet just as well, I have may times, not only that, when commuting or everyday travel, you don't buy a Porsche to have to drag yourself like a snail in the rain. What is not sane is driving at the same speed in the wet as in the dry. But you don't leave your Porsche in the garage just because its raining, its all about adapting the driving to the situation and circumstances. So whether for fun or everyday travel, wet performance is still very important for Porsche owners. 

    And even if you drive extremely slow in the rain, you still want your Porsche to handle well in the wet and should consider it to be important, because you may be dragged into in a dangerous situation by other drivers or circumtances in the rain nevertheless and it can mean the difference between having an accident and getting away free. That is unless you never take out the Porsche in the rain, in which case you would be a minority of owners.


    --


    Re: Sportauto Supertest 991S

    nberry:

    You probably are one of the few to track their cars in the rain. My comment was directed to everyday travel. If you are sane, you don't do spirited driving on wet roads. Handling for safety on wet roads is a different matter. I doubt very much people buy a car because it is faster when roads are wet.


    Nick,

    I don´t think that you have ever driven a sportscar in the rain, let alone with performance tires. Smiley


     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New 991.2 GT3 (2017) 11/18/18 10:43 PM
    EnglishManInNY
    403850 5190
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA 11/20/18 7:12 PM
    Enmanuel
    321005 1978
    Porsche Sticky 992 (Next 911 generation 2019/2020) 11/20/18 6:29 PM
    Lars997M
    272946 2971
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 11/7/18 2:43 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    211346 1077
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 11/15/18 6:23 PM
    BONES
    192063 2674
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 11/20/18 1:57 PM
    SciFrog
    123341 2424
    AMG Sticky Mercedes E63 S AMG (2018) - Short Review (updated on a regular basis) 11/15/18 12:15 PM
    RCA
    32286 316
    Porsche Sticky Paint protection film 9/25/18 6:14 PM
    throt
    14051 121
    Porsche Sticky Child seats in a 991 6/18/18 8:51 PM
    Monkey
    13329 31
    Porsche 991 GT3 RS 1/9/18 1:43 PM
    Kimi
    523534 5816
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S 4/3/18 9:15 AM
    KresoF1
    483348 4254
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 9/13/18 10:12 AM
    RCA
    279029 2589
    Porsche Cayman GT4 11/16/18 11:30 AM
    RCA
    264116 2611
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S 1/23/18 12:27 AM
    RCA
    191549 1074
    Ferrari 488 GTB/GTS 11/20/18 2:09 PM
    BiTurbo
    190171 1755
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 11/20/18 9:10 PM
    GoHardGT3RS
    179112 3224
    Porsche Boxster Spyder (981) 8/31/18 10:25 AM
    WAY
    142747 757
    Others Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016 model) - Review (updated Feb 13th 2017) 11/20/18 6:41 PM
    intouch1
    142571 2247
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 1/6/18 10:41 PM
    Wonderbar
    128307 1284
    Ferrari Ferrari F12 Berlinetta / 599 GTO Successor 5/22/18 9:16 PM
    RCA
    111650 789
    Others VW caught cheating emissions tests 5/3/18 7:52 PM
    CGX car nut
    106518 871
    Porsche Porsche Mission E - the future of Porsche? 11/20/18 9:25 PM
    Enzo II
    85090 1138
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 10/13/18 9:50 PM
    RCA
    66649 672
    Porsche UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne 2/6/18 2:13 PM
    RCA
    57199 423
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Carrera GTS models 11/3/18 11:09 AM
    bluelines
    46681 477
    Others Tesla Roadster 11/14/18 12:48 PM
    lukestern
    43280 1395
    Others Tesla Model X Thread Closed 2/23/18 3:41 PM
    RCA
    42820 1122
    AMG AMG GT R 11/20/18 9:13 PM
    GoHardGT3RS
    41304 598
    Lambo Aventador and SV 11/19/18 8:31 AM
    RCA
    39336 472
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo S Exclusive Series (2017) 11/14/18 11:25 AM
    RCA
    39055 637
    282 items found, displaying 1 to 30.