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    3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    Hi everyone ,

    I like the 997 GT3RS, but I feel disappointed about the size of the engine. I want a 3.8 and more hp!

    415bhp seems not that much for a supercar at this price range. Cheaper cars like the new M3 and GTR might have the same or even more hp!

    I want to place an order soon, but I am afriad the 3.8 will on sale within 2-3 years like the 996 Mk2 with more hp. So the 3.6 RS will be outdated and underpowered? I have no idea...

    What do you think?
    You will take the GT3 or the RS now or wait for the 3.8?

    Thanks!

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    I would go for a GT3 now due to the fact that the GT3 is just coming out. I don't see major changes like an engine increase within 2 or 3 years. Now I don't have any input into this but the car is brand new. When the new and improved GT3 comes out sell yours and get a new one. I know we all want more speed and power but 415hp is a lot of hp. Don't get hung up in the hp wars as you will never be satisfied. Heck people want more hp in the 997 TT.

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    ???
    The GT3 MKII did not come with a 3.8L engine... it was still the same 3.6 used in only the GT3/TT/GT2.
    Keep in mind that this is an entirely different engine than the current 3.8L lack-of-powerplant that is in the 997S. The base 997 essentially uses the same 3.6L engine that was used in the standard 996... but this is a very different engine.

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    The GT3 RS is no supercar but a track car. It is a very nice track toy and has a lot of good "genes" for further racing mods. 415 HP is a lot of power for the track, especially considering the power/weight ratio.

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    What about the RS? Do you think the RS worth the extra money?

    I have heard that 415hp is the max output for the GT3 3.6 engine. Is that correct?

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    Quote:
    997GT3RS said:
    What about the RS? Do you think the RS worth the extra money?

    I have heard that 415hp is the max output for the GT3 3.6 engine. Is that correct?



    RS-Tuning and another one or two Tuners got more than 470 HP out of this engine...the "old" version used in the 996 GT3 and not the improved "new" one. I don't think that 415 HP are the end of the line but for street usage and considering future environmental regulations, I'd say that 450 HP are the end for this engine. Of course without turbo chargers.

    Capacity-wise, 4.0 litres should be the end (I know that it might be possible to gain more but too much of a risk for serious track racing) but I'd say that Porsche will raise it to 3.8 l for the next generation and replace it later on with a completely new engine.

    Bottom line is: it doesn't make much sense for Porsche to use two completely different kind of engines for the 911 and this is exactly what they're doing. So sooner or later, one of the engine types will disappear, hopefully the "regular" M97. But with rising cost, the demand for a more profitable company and with respect to the shareholders, I'd say that Porsche will try to improve the M97 engine more and more until it is going to replace the current (and pretty "old"...concept-wise, not technology-wise) GT3/Turbo engine. Maybe I'm wrong but I have the feeling that it's end is much closer than we think. It would be a pitty.

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    What are you going to achieve just with more power? A sportcar is more than hp ratio. GT3RS should have a wonderful handling...

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    Quote:
    Almeras said:
    What are you going to achieve just with more power? A sportcar is more than hp ratio. GT3RS should have a wonderful handling...



    I fully agree! I was never the one who asked for more power in the GT3/GT3RS. The 911 Turbo is a different story, it is more of a multi-purpose sportscar where more power surely can have advantages, especially since this car has AWD. This is why I would never compare a GT3/GT3 RS to a Turbo or 997 Carrera. Different beasts, completely.

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    Quote:
    RC said:

    RS-Tuning and another one or two Tuners got more than 470 HP out of this engine...the "old" version used in the 996 GT3 and not the improved "new" one. I don't think that 415 HP are the end of the line but for street usage and considering future environmental regulations, I'd say that 450 HP are the end for this engine. Of course without turbo chargers.

    Capacity-wise, 4.0 litres should be the end (I know that it might be possible to gain more but too much of a risk for serious track racing) but I'd say that Porsche will raise it to 3.8 l for the next generation and replace it later on with a completely new engine.

    Bottom line is: it doesn't make much sense for Porsche to use two completely different kind of engines for the 911 and this is exactly what they're doing. So sooner or later, one of the engine types will disappear, hopefully the "regular" M97. But with rising cost, the demand for a more profitable company and with respect to the shareholders, I'd say that Porsche will try to improve the M97 engine more and more until it is going to replace the current (and pretty "old"...concept-wise, not technology-wise) GT3/Turbo engine. Maybe I'm wrong but I have the feeling that it's end is much closer than we think. It would be a pitty.



    Thanks for the info...

    The 3.8 is M97 engine?

    How old is the current GT3/TT engine?

    I just notice the Ferrari F430CS is much lighter and have 80+hp over the RS. I am wondering how's the RS keep up with that?

    Porsche is rushing out all the TT, GT3 and the RS within a few months. Maybe the next generation 3.8 engine models will come out closer than we think?

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    Quote:
    Almeras said:
    What are you going to achieve just with more power? A sportcar is more than hp ratio. GT3RS should have a wonderful handling...



    I know that, but what is the advantage of the current 3.6 engine? Why not a new 3.8 engine?

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    997GT3RS said: Thanks for the info...

    The 3.8 is M97 engine?
    YES, the one in the 997S is an M97. The 3.8L used in the 964 and 993 were based on the same block as the GT3.

    How old is the current GT3/TT engine?
    It is based on the 964 dry-sump block that started in 1989.

    I just notice the Ferrari F430CS is much lighter and have 80+hp over the RS. I am wondering how's the RS keep up with that?
    Well, Ferrari tends to overstate power and understate weight, but even so, it will be hard to catch (and should be at almost double the price)

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    The 3.8L used in the 964 and 993 were based on the same block as the GT3.



    I don't understand why Porsche switched back to 3.6 Liter?

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    I just notice the Ferrari F430CS is much lighter and have 80+hp over the RS. I am wondering how's the RS keep up with that?
    Well, Ferrari tends to overstate power and understate weight, but even so, it will be hard to catch (and should be at almost double the price)



    Ferrari is a different "price league". I wouldn't compare the GT3 RS to the F430 (CS). The GT3 RS is actually a car which has no real competitor, as funny as this may sound.

    And even the GT3 is some sort of special model because it doesn't really fit the typical category of certain cars. It is no real race car but it is no real road car too.
    This is actually the reason why I can see a F430 owner owning a GT3 RS too and vice versa. Different kind of beasts. The F430 CS is a different story but I wasn't aware that the streetlegal version is already available.

    Regarding engines: Porsche does a pretty bad job advertising the engine of the 997 GT3/GT3RS/Turbo. I know many people who still think that the engines are based on the same construction design. Whenever I tell them that the 997 Carrera engine doesn't have anything in common with the 997 GT3/GT3RS/Turbo engine, they look at me like I've just told them that an UFO just landed in their backyard.
    It was the same story with the 996 but apparently the message hasn't come through yet.

    I even have the suspicion that Porsche doesn't actually want that people know that there is a difference in engine construction design. This would probably make the 997 Carrera look "cheap". The truth is: the 996 Carrera engines were not really what I expected from Porsche. They had a lot in common with the Boxster S engine and at the beginning, reliability wasn't the best.

    With the "new" M97 engine used in the 997 Carrera S (not Carrera!!!) things have changed. The M97 engine is a highly improved version of the "old" 996 Carrera engine, the M96.
    I would even say that the M97 engine is pretty much the engine I expected to see in the 996 a couple of years ago.
    It may not be racing-proof but it certainly is up-to-date.

    The 997 Carrera engine is a different story, this car still uses a slightly improved version of the M96 engine. Not bad at all but not much "left" for upgrades or mods.

    Still: the 997 Carrera (non-S) and the 997 GT3 are in my opinion the "best value for money" Porsche models right now.
    Of course only if you really have to care about cost.
    The Carrera 4/4S models are somehow a little bit overpriced and the wider body really is for good looks only. I'm waiting to see a Carrera S with widebody at the end of the production 997 cycle...I wouldn't be surprised at all.

    The GT3 RS is a rip-off in my opinion. The wider body looks great, the rear wing too. But take a GT3 and add the clubsport package and you get almost the same setup. Only the offset of the rear wheels is different, nothing else.
    With PCCB as a standard option, the GT3 RS would have been a very good offer. But without...just a very expensive pumped-up GT3 without the steroids.

    Would I buy a GT3 RS? In a second. I know, I know...just looks for a lot of money without a major improvement over the GT3. But still...a very nice and aggressive car and one thing is sure: it won't be slowlier than the GT3.

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    I love the look of the 997 GT3, but I don't want to lost too much money when I resale it a few years later.

    What about a used 996 GT3/RS and new 997 GT3? Which is the "best value for money" Porsche models?

    Also after adding the CF seats in the GT3. The price isn't quite close to the RS?

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    Still 17k Euro away...

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    Quote:
    997GT3RS said:
    Quote:
    Grant said:
    The 3.8L used in the 964 and 993 were based on the same block as the GT3.



    I don't understand why Porsche switched back to 3.6 Liter?


    The 964RSR 3.8 and 993RS 3.8 were both low-revving motors (redline less than 7k), but the GT3 revs MUCH higher and the smaller moving mass and shorter stroke are important to rev so high.

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    The 964RSR 3.8 and 993RS 3.8 were both low-revving motors (redline less than 7k), but the GT3 revs MUCH higher and the smaller moving mass and shorter stroke are important to rev so high.



    Thanks Grant!

    The 997 GT3 engine is almost the same as the 996 GT3 engine.

    Do you think it is worth to buy a new GT3 instead of the 996 GT3?

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    997 GT3 benefits fm even lighter con-rods (more power, more responsive engine, more RPMs) & PASM (flexibility for daily use) compared w/996 GT3. on the other hand, there may be many folks trading up (fm 996 GT3) so you could probably pick one up at a good price.

    on the matter of 'HP wars' - keep in mind it's not just how much HP or torque the engine produces, but how much of it is put down onto the road (a rear-engine layout does this much more efficiently). weight, grip & stopping ability are just as important as power.

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    The engine in the 964RS and 993RS was aircooled and would have problems producing the power that 3.6 engine in the GT3 does.
    Shane

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    Quote:
    AS said:
    on the matter of 'HP wars' - keep in mind it's not just how much HP or torque the engine produces, but how much of it is put down onto the road (a rear-engine layout does this much more efficiently). weight, grip & stopping ability are just as important as power.



    Stopping ability: Do you think the GT3 should upgrade with the PCCB?

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    Quote:
    Shane said:
    The engine in the 964RS and 993RS was aircooled and would have problems producing the power that 3.6 engine in the GT3 does.
    Shane



    Why?
    I thought 3.8 engine is easier to produce more hp than the 3.6.

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    Quote:

    Still: the 997 Carrera (non-S) and the 997 GT3 are in my opinion the "best value for money" Porsche models right now.




    RC, I am interested to see why you think that the 997 is the best value for money Porsche. In Australia, the 997S is 13.25% more than the 997, but comes with sports steering wheel, 19's, xenon, and PASM which 997 doesn't come with. If I could have confortably afforded that little bit more, I would have gone for the 997S.

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    Quote:
    997GT3RS said:
    Quote:
    Shane said:
    The engine in the 964RS and 993RS was aircooled and would have problems producing the power that 3.6 engine in the GT3 does.
    Shane



    Why?
    I thought 3.8 engine is easier to produce more hp than the 3.6.


    911 Aircooled motors never had more than 2 valves/cylinder.

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    And also the 3.8 engine would have overheated very quickly producing 415 HP without a monster fan to keep it all cool.
    Shane

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?


    If the engines are made out of the same materials, the 3.8 must be heavier than the 3.6 right?

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    Quote:
    997GT3RS said:

    If the engines are made out of the same materials, the 3.8 must be heavier than the 3.6 right?


    No, the external dimensions are the same. Just the bore (hole) in the cylinder is wider (as is the piston). Weight is about the same - moving mass is higher on the 3.8L...

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    No, the external dimensions are the same. Just the bore (hole) in the cylinder is wider (as is the piston). Weight is about the same - moving mass is higher on the 3.8L...



    Maybe lower rev redline in the 3.8?

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    Quote:
    997GT3RS said:
    Quote:
    Grant said:
    No, the external dimensions are the same. Just the bore (hole) in the cylinder is wider (as is the piston). Weight is about the same - moving mass is higher on the 3.8L...



    Maybe lower rev redline in the 3.8?



    And so you have effectively annihilated the displacement advantage of the 3,8L. The 3,6 revs higher and effectively produces the same power.

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    997GT3RS said:
    Quote:
    Grant said:
    No, the external dimensions are the same. Just the bore (hole) in the cylinder is wider (as is the piston). Weight is about the same - moving mass is higher on the 3.8L...



    Maybe lower rev redline in the 3.8?



    And so you have effectively annihilated the displacement advantage of the 3,8L. The 3,6 revs higher and effectively produces the same power.


    Yes, only advantage for 3.8L would be a bit more torque at lower revs...

    Re: 3.8 Liter GT3 RS?

    The 3.8 seems to be a capable "Race Engine"

    Used to power the Daytona Prototypes in the Rolex GrandAm series.

    ENGINE:
    Six-Cylinder Boxer Porsche 3795 cc -
    76.4mm stroke, 102.7mm bore
    Horsepower: 510 @ 8500 rpm
    Torque: 435 N/meters @ 7500 rpm
    Max RPM: 9000
    Cooling: Water Cooled
    Intake System: Six Individual Throttle Valves
    Fuel Injection: Sequential multi-point Bosch MS 4.0 system with ignition control
    Lubrication: Dry Sump with Heat Exchanger and Mobil 1 oil

    500hp is not too bad

     
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