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    ALMS GT3 RSR weight penalty

    Can someone shed some light on the weight penalty imposed on the Porsches? It could be rumor, but I had heard complaints about the strengthening of the 4 litre engine. The future of Porsche's motorsports division is already in doubt with VW holding the reins.

    Smiley


    Re: ALMS GT3 RSR weight penalty

    I thought the weight penalties are due to their succeeding wins? Bergmeister / Long has won five races in a row now, albeit the last one also due to clever strategy.

    By the way, welcome to the forum! Smiley


    Re: ALMS GT3 RSR weight penalty

    You might be right Ferdie, although I hadn't heard that the ALMS adopted this. I don't think you can say that the RSRs are a dominant car. The Lizards 45 car has two great drivers and a solid team. It was great to see the RS Spyder again. I was lucky enough to be among the many in awe back in 05 at Laguna Seca when the first iteration of this bad-boy came out to play.

    Thank you for your warm welcome!

     

    IMG_0069.JPG


    Re: ALMS GT3 RSR weight penalty

    So, that is you next to the car? Certainly a great experience, I am surprised that Spyderidol hasn´t discovered your post yet...


    Re: ALMS GT3 RSR weight penalty

    Spyderidol is the expert on sportscar  racing (among other things) and he has all the facts

    In a nutshell Porsche extended the engine to 4.0 lts from 3.8 lts and because as a result the cylinder walls became thin they used different material liners to increase strength.

    Other competitors complained about it and if I remember well ACO undertook to examine the case. That's as far as I know.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: ALMS GT3 RSR weight penalty

    Hey guys! I'm sorry, but I have been so busy that I have just now seen this post.

    The weight penalty actually was implemented to bring the field closer together.

    .The new max weight is 1245 Kg .The previous minimum weight for the RSR was in fact 1250Kg. (yes, it was higher)

    The problem is that the ACO weight table max's out at 1245, which means that a car running at that minimum must use smaller restrictors ( 28.6mm vs 29.1mm). so ...by loosing weight, the Porsche's loose power, so everyone gets closer.

     

     


    Re: ALMS GT3 RSR weight penalty

    Spyderidol:

    Hey guys! I'm sorry, but I have been so busy that I have just now seen this post.

    The weight penalty actually was implemented to bring the field closer together.

    .The new max weight is 1245 Kg .The previous minimum weight for the RSR was in fact 1250Kg. (yes, it was higher)

    The problem is that the ACO weight table max's out at 1245, which means that a car running at that minimum must use smaller restrictors ( 28.6mm vs 29.1mm). so ...by loosing weight, the Porsche's loose power, so everyone gets closer.

    So if the ACO was running athletics they'd want to tie Usain Bolt's shoelaces together, just to bring the field closer together.

    So where's the incentive to build a faster racecar than the competition? Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: ALMS GT3 RSR weight penalty

    Spyderidol:

    Hey guys! I'm sorry, but I have been so busy that I have just now seen this post.

    The weight penalty actually was implemented to bring the field closer together.

    .The new max weight is 1245 Kg .The previous minimum weight for the RSR was in fact 1250Kg. (yes, it was higher)

    The problem is that the ACO weight table max's out at 1245, which means that a car running at that minimum must use smaller restrictors ( 28.6mm vs 29.1mm). so ...by loosing weight, the Porsche's loose power, so everyone gets closer.

     

     

    Thanks! What's the latest on the cylinder liners issue?


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: ALMS GT3 RSR weight penalty

    Yes, I was a happy boy! It had been some time since Porsche's GT1 program and I was able to get very intimate with this one.  Spyderidol, thanks for the clarification but the GT2 field in the ALMS atleast seems pretty tight to me. Being in the states and only having Speed Channel for for my viewing pleasure I never see the LMS. I'm not questioning you, more the reasoning of these rules. The new vettes in GT2 were very strong and I think they will continue to get faster. I too would love to hear more about the RSR cylinder liner complaints and what if anything will be done.


    Re: ALMS GT3 RSR weight penalty

    fritz:

    So if the ACO was running athletics they'd want to tie Usain Bolt's shoelaces together, just to bring the field closer together.

    So where's the incentive to build a faster racecar than the competition? Smiley

    One has (weight) classifications in individual sports as well, don´t they? They even differentiate men and women... Smiley

    In all seriousness, one can only close the gap to a certain extend and someone has to loose - so blame it on the rules.

    What´s the alternative?


    Re: ALMS GT3 RSR weight penalty

     

     

    No news yet on the cylinder liner issue.

    I'll keep a sharp eye on this and let you guys know as soon as there are any developments.

    (Personally, I think that this will not come to much)


    Re: ALMS GT3 RSR weight penalty

    Ferdie:
    fritz:

    So if the ACO was running athletics they'd want to tie Usain Bolt's shoelaces together, just to bring the field closer together.

    So where's the incentive to build a faster racecar than the competition? Smiley

    One has (weight) classifications in individual sports as well, don´t they? They even differentiate men and women... Smiley

    Sure, and GT racing cars are divided into categories, like the GT2 class in this particular case. 

    In all seriousness, one can only close the gap to a certain extend and someone has to loose - so blame it on the rules.

    Sure, the team which runs the best car within a category wins. The others lose. So why penalize the winners with extra weight, so that the losers artificially become winners?
    You are right. Someone has to lose.  But shouldn't that "someone" be the real losers, and not the handicapped winners? Smiley

    What´s the alternative?

    Formula 1. All the cars are built to the same set of rules, and the best car / driver / team combination on the day of the race wins!  Smiley

    Max Mosley, Charlie Whiting and Bernie Ecclestone willing, of course!  Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: ALMS GT3 RSR weight penalty

    fritz:
    Ferdie:
    fritz:

    So if the ACO was running athletics they'd want to tie Usain Bolt's shoelaces together, just to bring the field closer together.

    So where's the incentive to build a faster racecar than the competition? Smiley

    One has (weight) classifications in individual sports as well, don´t they? They even differentiate men and women... Smiley

    Sure, and GT racing cars are divided into categories, like the GT2 class in this particular case.

    Fritz,

    you know even better than myself that those LMP and GT categories are more or less defining the amount of money and technology that are respectively allowed. I agree with you in theory but how else will you solve the conceptual and technological differences in sports- and touringcar racing?

    fritz:
    Ferdie:
    What´s the alternative?

    Formula 1. All the cars are built to the same set of rules, and the best car / driver / team combination on the day of the race wins!  Smiley

    Max Mosley, Charlie Whiting and Bernie Ecclestone willing, of course!  Smiley

     

    I had in mind your second sentence while still reading the first one. So that goes down the drain as well...


    Re: ALMS GT3 RSR weight penalty

    Surprised that weight penalty rules are new to many of you guys!  Same for air intake restrictors.  You didn't think the Aston Martins actually beat the Corvettes in GT1 without those rules, did you?   I forgot how many penalties the vettes got over the year, but it wasn't just one...  Then AM finally wins 2 LeMans races, and boom they decide to retire

    All kidding aside, I did love those AM though, as somebody posted above, I do wish races would be "run what you brung"...  And to be fair, I bet the vettes did benefit from competitors getting penalized early in their ALMS racing (somebody can confirm this?).

    Geoff

     


    --
     

    2001 Corolla LE - 0-60: Yes.

    2009 Corvette Z06 - 0-60: Ooooh yes.


    Re: ALMS GT3 RSR weight penalty

    Oh, and I should add that I wish the RSR wouldn't get penalized, this way we'd really see how the new GT2 vettes stack up against it!

    Geoff


    Re: ALMS GT3 RSR weight penalty

    Spyderidol:

    Hey guys! I'm sorry, but I have been so busy that I have just now seen this post.

    The weight penalty actually was implemented to bring the field closer together.

    .The new max weight is 1245 Kg .The previous minimum weight for the RSR was in fact 1250Kg. (yes, it was higher)

    The problem is that the ACO weight table max's out at 1245, which means that a car running at that minimum must use smaller restrictors ( 28.6mm vs 29.1mm). so ...by loosing weight, the Porsche's loose power, so everyone gets closer.

     

     

    So I'm assuming that it's my feeble mind at work but I still don't get it. My understanding as you so kindly stated is that the RSRs are already at weight.  Your point about the restrictors is very valuable. I'm wondering if all of the RSRs recieved this penalty, or was it just the 45 car? I still don't see the Porsche being in a league of it's own in GT2. They have been more competitive this year but still have many disadvantages in long term pace. I do feel that giving them some beneficial allowances would be crazy, but to give them a penalty is equally crazy. GT2 is the most entertaining field to watch and also the closest link to what the manufacturers produce. Is this some tactic to attract or keep others within GT2? We have all witnessed the declining fields and the ALMS is always trying to attract new entrants.

    The bottom line is that  this is the most relevant field to most of us, has the most action and entries. Why mess with the best thing they have going right now? All of us love to see the fastest category for obvious reasons but in todays economy GT2 is the most attractive for prospective teams and or new manufacturers.


    Re: ALMS GT3 RSR weight penalty

    The ruling applies to all RSR's and was imposed by the ACO. (Which means ALMS and LMS as well as at Le Mans).

     Porsche have in fact been quite dominant (5 out of 5 in ALMS), and were leading LMS up until the disastrous performance in Portimao.

    They have not been successful in the long distance races , but certainly not due to lack of pace. It has been more a mixture of poor driver line-ups, very bad luck, and some gear box issues.


    Re: ALMS GT3 RSR weight penalty

    Spyderidol, I appreciate your insights. I certainly can't speak to the LMS since I can't watch it. I do however feel that attleast in the ALMS the F430s, especially the Risi team are on par. The M3s are coming on strong too and we caught a glimpse of the vettes pace. We will see at Petit Le Mans if the Porsche teams can get the monkey of their back on the distance races and get a good result.

    What are your thoughts on the upcoming Petit? I think it's great that we will have a few more cars in P1. I would love to see the 908 against the R15 but haven't heard that Audi will be there.

     

    The good old days

    mIMG0003.jpg

    Sanity check?

    73NURBURGRING02SNOW.jpg

     

     

     


    Re: ALMS GT3 RSR weight penalty

    The Risi Ferrari has been without doubt, Porsche's main rival. It's not surprising, as Ferrari is always a strong opponent. However, the RSR's have not only won all the races in ALMS (so far) as they have consistently posted fastest qualification and race lap times. I think it is pretty safe to say that they have dominated but not annihilated the opposition....so far.

    This will change. (the ACO and/or IMSA will make sure of that)

     

     


    Re: ALMS GT3 RSR weight penalty

    We all know that Porsche has always been good at exploiting loopholes in the rules. The 917/30 basically ended the Can Am series and I can understand that having one manufacturer dominate doesn't help the sport. The RSR's don't exactly have a power or weight advantage and I hate seeing changes made to make things easier on others. This is motorsports which is driven by competion. There are other series where I could totally understand this approach but not at this level. We aren't exactly talking F1 budgets here, and this is top-flight sportscar racing. Wait till the Corvette team gets going, that will be domination. Enough of my rambling!


    Re: ALMS GT3 RSR weight penalty

    Steel Sleeves Fiasco: GT Bureau handed out a 30Kg penalty for all Porsche's competing in the FiA series . This penalty will be in effect from Budapest.

    The Porsche's were at rislk of being disqualified, but the GT Bureau members accept the Porsche’s proposal to allow the use of steel sleeves in the engine for the rest of the 2009 season on condition that a weight of 30 kg be added.

    How Porsche Motorsport allowed itself to be put into this position is very unfortunate.

     

    P.S. Latest rumor is that LMP1 project is canceled. (as I suspected and forecasted)

    Also - Porsche will reduce it's presence in Grand Am. (both in DP's and GT)

     

    The end is near!

     


    Re: ALMS GT3 RSR weight penalty

    Spyderidol,

    Your knowledge is much appreciated! The more I hear, the more I too fear that the end is near. Porsche has become a company that is much more interested in making $ than continuing with their proud history. They have cheapened their products in so many ways and not really done anything Motorsports wise for some time. The RS Spyder program gave me some hope but Penske footed some of the bill. I'm not the biggest Ferrari fan but they understand that without racing, they are nothing but a name. People who buy for a name/image come and go. The returning customers are the ones who bought because of what Porsche once was.

    I sure hope we are all wrong about VW's direction but I don't think Porsche's loyal fans will stick around if things continue the way they are going.


     
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