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    Re: Winter tires

    RC:

    You would be surprised what a difference the same brand and tire type but one with and the other one without N-rating make in real life, especially on the 911.

    All-Season tires aren't fish or meat as we say here. They serve their purpose but they aren't good in anything.

    Yes, the DWS would fall apart...at Vmax on my GTS Cab. Smiley

    The DWS has exatcly the same speed rating as the Michelin.  It has about 3-4 times the treadwear rating so your 'guess' they would fall apart first at VMAX seems to be wishful thinking.  Speed ratings are not just assigned.  They are certified after extensive testing. I would feel just as safe with either tire at VMAX (especially with my PCCB).  About the only advantage I can see is that your tire would be quicker in the corners on a track.  VMAX is not likely to be to your advantage.  My 2005 C2S is plenty fast for me but, yes, you have a very nice car.  I spent $850 on my last set of DWS, including the road hazard warranty, shipping and installation.  They will last me three times as long as my last set of N1 Michelins!  Race me in the rain or cold - eat my dust.  Love them in the snow!  Have you had your N1 or N2 in the snow and ice?Smiley

    Just because the DWS are not overpriced does not mean they are not the latest technology using the best possible manufacturing techniques.  I have actually driven 911s for all of my life.  I have given up on overpriced N tires a LONG time ago for street driving.  Michelins are noisy afer a short while and only last about 6K on the rear (for me).  Have you ever tried the DWS on a 911?  Have you ever tried any NON 'n' tire on a 911?  Did not think so. 

    My opinons are based on my personal experiance.  If you have not driven the DWS then at least look at the specs compared to the N1 or N2 Michelins - they match up exactly in most categories  and far exceed the Michelins in wear rating and cold weather performance.  The only edge I see is in dry, warm track conditions.  Using the difference on the street would be a a wild ride. 


    Re: Winter tires

    RC,

    all you talk about is getting rid of your GTS cab, the car is AWESOME !!!

    enjoy it  Smiley


    Re: Winter tires

    Yesterday at lunch I talked to an engineer who is working at this tire/automotive company (my customer) about the discussion of N-rated and DWS tires. He smiled and said: “a heavy modified VW Golf is still a good car. But would you use this Golf for high speed traveling (not only one high speed test) as daily Autobahn driver? It is possible, yes, but there is a reason why a Porsche/BMW/Mercedes is the better car for this use-case and that the chance to get to your destination high speed travelling is bigger. Stay with the N-rated tires even if they are not from my manufacturer, they are different. The smallest car body damage is more expensive than the difference between a good and an optimized tire”


    Re: Winter tires

    RC:
    993Targa:

    You can always sell your wheels on Ebay. Original Porsche wheels always get a good price. 

     

    Do you really think I would get 5000 EUR on eBay for my wheel set ? 

    Of course not, they are €6k new with new tires. A used set would fetch €3-4k, a reasonable price for used wheels in good condition.


    --

    2012 Cayenne S White/Espresso 

    Ex: 993 Targa, 986S, 986 and 964 C2


    Re: Winter tires

    ARMD009:

    RC,

    all you talk about is getting rid of your GTS cab, the car is AWESOME !!!

    enjoy it  Smiley

    It is awesome but I have two kids and a wife and I have a business with customers who seem to care a lot about my personal life, so the GTS Cab is just the wrong car for that. I knew it before but I tried to fool myself into believing that I could make it work. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Winter tires

    993Targa:
    RC:
    993Targa:

    You can always sell your wheels on Ebay. Original Porsche wheels always get a good price. 

     

    Do you really think I would get 5000 EUR on eBay for my wheel set ? 

    Of course not, they are €6k new with new tires. A used set would fetch €3-4k, a reasonable price for used wheels in good condition.

    So I would still have to pay up to 3000 EUR for a set of winter wheels and then I would need the summer tires in spring....almost 5000 EUR altogether. Not worth it. 

    I was thinking about getting four winter tires now on my RS Spyder rims, apparently the size and offset of the summer wheels and winter wheels are the same (not sure about that though) and I get new summer tires in spring. This would cost me "only" around 4000 EUR and I would get new summer tires, the Pirelli PZero suck.

    Still...it isn't worth it. I barely would drive the car on weekends.

    My decision stands: The Carrera GTS Cab goes away next October but I'm still not sure what to get instead. Right now, I have four cars on my radar, the Cayenne Turbo Powerkit, the Panamera Turbo S, the 991 Carrera S and the 997 Turbo S. It is going to be the Cayenne Turbo Powerkit most likely but I like to keep my options open. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Winter tires

    trust me I know, same over here

    enjoySmiley


    Re: Winter tires

     
    Itsme:

    Yesterday at lunch I talked to an engineer who is working at this tire/automotive company (my customer) about the discussion of N-rated and DWS tires. He smiled and said: “a heavy modified VW Golf is still a good car. But would you use this Golf for high speed traveling (not only one high speed test) as daily Autobahn driver? It is possible, yes, but there is a reason why a Porsche/BMW/Mercedes is the better car for this use-case and that the chance to get to your destination high speed travelling is bigger. Stay with the N-rated tires even if they are not from my manufacturer, they are different. The smallest car body damage is more expensive than the difference between a good and an optimized tire”

    That just does not make any sense to me.  DWS or NON- N tires don't cause accidents - drivers cause accidents.  It is as though you think the DWS tires will somehow fall apart (they have more than double the wear rating!).  What is really expensive is buying an N rated tire, drving in the cold AND wrecking your car into the nearest telephone pole. 

    In dry or warm conditions either tire will perform much better than the driver on the street can use reasonably.  In cold or wet I bet anyone here the DWS will be much safer than the summer 'N' tires.

    The greatest danger is using tires which have been worn out.  Trust me, the N tires will wear out much faster and given their cost people are much more likely to use them longer than is wise and in conditions they are not designed for.  Note  that much of the discussion here is about the cost of spare rims, extra winter tires etc. - this causes people to run longer on old tires and is far more dangerous.

    I drive my DWS all year around, no extra rims, no spare winter tires!  If it is too snowy to use the DWS I doubt it is a good idea to take the 911 out because of all the people who will run into you!  Not the other  way around.

    Since they are reasonably priced and last 2-3 times as long they end up costing about 1/5 the price of N tires (not to mention the extra expense of winter tires).  Because of that I am much less likely to drive on a worn out set of expensive (overpriced) tires and much less likely to do 'body damage'.  Do you really think they are 5X as good? Or the DWS are 5x as likely to cause an accident.  In life we need to make informed choices.  Let me help a little with my own observations.

    I don't believe for a second that it is safer to use the N1 or N2 - unless you are always in a warm, dry climate and never have more than 10K miles on the tires (6K in the rear is more like it).  IMHO it is safest to have tires which work well when conditions are marginal - in the cold, wet or snow - that is when you and others around you have accidents.  1 or 2 seconds on the track are not worth the trade-off in all weather safety and expense.  To me the N tires are the biggest compromise.  Optimized for conditions we don't see all year around and far more dangerous when conditions are not ideal.  I am not into taking chances or parking my car when the weather is not perfect.

    Lastly - Unless you have driven a 911 with the DWS you simply don't know what you are missing.  Some are available for a 30 day 'test' drive - a clear sign that the makers are pretty confident that you will be more than happy.  Clearly I have used all season tires on my 997 for years and I find the DWS to be EXCELLENT.  Even if they cost more than the N tire I would still buy them in a heartbeat!  Try them once yourself else you are doomed to continue to make the tire guys rich with these unfounded fears and keep the body shop much more busy!

    DWS Treadwear rating 540 ($872) - Michelin N2 - 220 ($1772). Given the wear rating and price the N tires are 4.98 times more expensive - AND the DWS have a much better warranty (Even the road hazard is included!  I had a flat the other day and Tire Rack sent me a new tire overnight! )

    Except for dry traction the DWS exceeds all the other specs of the N2 - compare at the tirerack.com.  The rears even weigh a pound less.

    You are paying a huge premium for the letter 'N' and you are in a world of hurt in the cold or rain.  The N is a letter and will not cushion the telephone pole at all.  Nothing replaces driving well.  Bottom line the N tires is  no safer at all and I have not even calculated that with the N tires you really need another set of tires and wheels for the winter.  By the way N rated winter tires are the biggest joke - they will never see the track or be driven at VMAX - the DWS have no such issues.

    http://www.tirerack.com/tires/CompareTires.jsp

    I guess I have better things to spend my money on, like fuel to turn the tires.

     

     


    Re: Winter tires

    A tiny difference already makes a difference. N rated tires are perfected and optimized for certain Porsche models. There are so many factors which go into the equation, that engineer "itsme" mentioned was absolutely right.

    Let me put it this way: The tire is the most important thing on a car, especially on a sports car. If you can't appreciate a good tire, then you may not care too much about driving at the limit. The fact that you had a good experience so far, doesn't say much. Either you never drove your car at the limit or you never had a comparison to a good (N-rated) tire.

    I understand your argument about money but 5-10% more tire cost for a car which probably exceeds a 100k price tag, doesn't make much sense to me, sorry. 

    My experience with tires, especially on Porsche cars, is extensive, I drove many different tires, incl. non-N rated tires and I can tell you that the difference is there, especially on wet pavement but also at the limit. It just makes a difference if a tire has been adapted to a certain weight distribution ratio or not.  Have you ever watched a slow motion movie of a  911 in sharp curves / turns ? Look at the rear part and at the tires, especially in the rear. Compare it to a car with front engine. 

    Have you never wondered why in certain racing classes, the tires need to be the same size and manufacturer, sometimes even the same type and tire mixture ? Have you never wondered why certain cars are faster or "nastier" to drive on certain tires ? What you are implying with your claims is actually that all tires are the same or almost the same. The tire actually makes the difference.

    I still wonder why the DWS isn't available in Germany, a country with no legal general speed limit ? Marketing ?! 

    Forget about what people tell you at tirerack or whatever tire dealers you spoke to. 

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Winter tires

    RC - with respect. I have owned 911s since I was a teenager.  Im 48 years old now going on my 7th one.  I have more than 600K miles behind a 911.  I have pushed the car to its limits CONSTANTLY and have not put a wheel wrong.  Put me in an identical car (911) and I will run circles around 99% of the others on this forum including youSmiley.  I know this because in autocross I routinely whip other 997s with my DWS tires.  I have owned many N rated tires and worn them out FAST.  Some of of the worst tires I have had in the past are N rated michelins due to the noise, rapid wear and difficulty keeping them balanced.  It is true that some all season tires I have owned are not worth spit.  Not so with the DWS. (Note the load rating on the tires are the same, except the front DWS support more weight)

    Yes - the tire is the most important part of the car (after the driver).    Unless you try the DWS you really have no real information.  I have tried many of each type of tire.  I go through a set almost every year - please don't assume I don't get the most out of them and the car.  I don't make any money selling tires.Smiley

    The cost difference is 5X not 5 - or 10% given the cost and wear rating combined.  I am not going by what dealers tell me I am going by the specification the manufacures provide and what I know after driving them often.  The numbers don't lied. The engineers provide the numbers and use them to design the tires as well as evaluate them.  In the rain, especially, the DWS are superior.  Standing rain, full throttle, it just goes.  That is what is important to me in a 100K car.

    Perhaps the DWS are not available because they would be too popular.  You make it sound as thought they are not good enough to be sold there, lol.  Who knows.  What is nasty is driving an expensive tire which is worn out and which is expensive to replace. 

    Sorry you can't get them in Europe, I would be happy to send you a set and hear what you think.  Take it from a fellow board member, they are great tires.  I have 0 reason to misslead you.  My passion for this subject is genuine and based on my observations.


    Re: Winter tires

    Sorry, but if somebody who is working as a development engineer says my product A is better than my product B for that use case because of argument X we should believe him as long as we don’t have better arguments. I don’t call “cheaper” a better argument.

    If N-rated tire would only be a marketing trick to make more money the development costs wouldn’t be that high. Yes, they are expensive and Porsche uses them to make money, but they are better if used at your 911/Boxster.

    I don’t know why we discuss every second of lap time at the N’ring or every 1/10s 0-62mph when we accept to use second  quality tires.


    Re: Winter tires

    Itsme:

    Sorry, but if somebody who is working as a development engineer says my product A is better than my product B for that use case because of argument X we should believe him as long as we don’t have better arguments. I don’t call “cheaper” a better argument.

    If N-rated tire would only be a marketing trick to make more money the development costs wouldn’t be that high. Yes, they are expensive and Porsche uses them to make money, but they are better if used at your 911/Boxster.

    I don’t know why we discuss every second of lap time at the N’ring or every 1/10s 0-62mph when we accept to use second  quality tires.

    Gee, who am I going to believe - the engineer (who likely has also never driven a 997 with DWS tires) or myself?  Never plan on driving on the ring.  I can tell you there are many times I am better off with the DWS.  Like I said, I would buy them if they cost more.  They are superior in the rain, the cold and they last longer.  They also drive better, are not as noisy and work in the snow.  These are all real reasons!  Not some engineer.  I don't have it necessary to save money.  Visit me in Pal, Andorra or in Soto Grande and you will see I am fine financially.Smiley

    I am passionate about this subject because I have experiance using both types of tires.  Let me know what you think of the DWS after you actually try them.  Feel free to be stubborn - I am just trying to help.


    Re: Winter tires

    No 991cab on your list RC?


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    There is no try. Just do.


    Re: Winter tires

    Pentium:

    No 991cab on your list RC?

    No. The rear seats are horrible and I would need them for my kids.
    I wish I could talk to the guy(s) responsible for the development of the rear seats in the 911 Cab, I'm really mad at them. Why even bother to offer rear seats, they are only comfortable with special child seats. Even then, not really.

    My hope (and my understanding) was actually that the 991 is getting more comfortable rear seats. Unfortunately this didn't happen and to be honest, I don't have any clue why. Is this Porsche's way telling 911 customers to get another family Porsche like the Panamera or Cayenne ? Apparently so. Smiley

    It would have been an easy task to offer very comfortable real seats in the rear of the 991, at least for the Coupe. It didn't happen, a shame.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Winter tires

    RC:
    Pentium:

    No 991cab on your list RC?

    No. The rear seats are horrible and I would need them for my kids.
    I wish I could talk to the guy(s) responsible for the development of the rear seats in the 911 Cab, I'm really mad at them. Why even bother to offer rear seats, they are only comfortable with special child seats. Even then, not really.

    My hope (and my understanding) was actually that the 991 is getting more comfortable rear seats. Unfortunately this didn't happen and to be honest, I don't have any clue why. Is this Porsche's way telling 911 customers to get another family Porsche like the Panamera or Cayenne ? Apparently so. Smiley

    It would have been an easy task to offer very comfortable real seats in the rear of the 991, at least for the Coupe. It didn't happen, a shame.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

    I'm not sure it would have been that easy to fit bigger rear seats. The wheel base is 10 cm longer but some of those centimeters are to make the front cabin bigger so you're left with only 3 cm more legroom in the back which isn't much and then the engine right behind the rear seats, so they're still child seats or emergency adult seats.

    The Cab has to accomodate the soft top to ultra upright back position to make things worse.

    I think the 991 is a lot more airy in the front and a very small improvement in the back, I don't think it's possible with the general 911 proportions and engine layout to make very comfortable rear seats.

    I sat in the backseat of a Ferrari FF this weekend, I'm 183cm and I fit very comfortably, but the car is 5 meters and it's a shooting break with a high roofline, there's no secret.

    Maybe if they do some sort of Panamera Coupe that would work for you RC! And a lot of other people, a car dynamically better than the Panamera bc lighter and shorter wheelbase but still with comfy individual small buckets "a la FF" in the back.

     


    Re: Winter tires

    I would buy a Panamera Coupe, slightly more stylish but looking "smaller", in a second. It just needs to be 100 kg lighter than the sedan and have the same engines. I'm afraid however that Porsche would raise the price tag substantially, so I'm not sure I could afford one. surprise If they make the Coupe 20k more expensive, I'm out.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Winter tires

    I am using Conti sport contact Vmax tyres, they are NOT approved by Porsche and have no "N" rating.

    These tyres were built by Continental based on the regular sport contact but engineered to be safe at high speeds.

    They have a 280 wear rating and proper tread unlike the Michelin Cups which are designed for the 997GT2.....

    I have used them daily for 4000 miles and driven them over 300kph on many occasions, hitting GPS 336kph on one occasion - Whilst I would always endeavor to use N rated tyres there are other high quality 911 friendly tyres out there which have not been given the official seal of approval


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    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: Winter tires

     

    Official N-tire specification information from Porsche

    Design and Testing

    Porsche designs and manufacturers some of the highest performance vehicles in the world. Because of the essential role that tires play in vehicle performance, Porsche has integrated tires in the design process throughout vehicle development. Porsche original equipment tires must successfully pass the tire company’s laboratory tests, road tests and race track evaluations to confirm that the prototype tires meet Porsche’s noise, hydroplaning, handling and high-speed durability requirements. Only upon successful completion of these tests, will tires be released for production.

    Branded as N-Spec

    Production tires that have passed all of the tests and received Porsche’s engineering department’s release can be branded with an N-specification. The N-specification brandings include: N-0 (N-zero), N-1, N-2, N-3, N-4, N-5 or N-6. These markings on a tire’s sidewall clearly and permanently identify them as approved by Porsche for their vehicles. The N-0 marking is assigned to the first approved version of a tire design. As that design is refined externally or internally, the later significant evolutions will result in a new generation of the tire to be branded with N-1, N-2, N-3, etc., in succession. When a completely new tire design is approved, it receives the N-0 branding and the succession begins again.

    Mixing N-Spec Tires

    Use only tire types tested by Porsche. Only tires with the same manufacturer and with the same specification code (e.g. “N0”, “N1” ...) should be mounted on the vehicle. Tires should be replaced no less than in pairs on one axle at a time. Only tires of the same tire make and type must be used. Since many Porsche vehicles are fitted with different sized tires on their front and rear axles, this requires matching the tire brand, tire name and N-specification front to rear.

    While the tire manufacturers may also build other tires featuring the same name, size and speed rating as the N-specification tires for non-Porsche applications, these tires may not be branded with the Porsche N-specification because they do not share the same internal construction and/or tread compound ingredients as the N-specification tires.

    Mixing tires are not permissible and will affect vehicle performance, safety and can affect vehicle warranty.

    Replacing N-Spec Tires

    If a vehicle was originally delivered with N-specification tires that have been discontinued and are no longer available, it is recommended to replace all four tires to a higher numeric N-specification design appropriate for that vehicle.

    In case of tire damage such as cuts, punctures, cracks or sidewall bulges that cause a single tire to be replaced for safety reasons, the remaining matching tire on that axle must not exceed 30

    percent wear. If the remaining tire has more than 30 percent wear from new, it should also be replaced. This rule applies to all four tires on all wheel drive vehicles. Handling inconsistencies may result if this is not done.

    Break-in of New Tires

    Initially, new tires do not offer their full traction. Drivers should therefore drive at moderate speeds during the first 60-100 miles (100-200 km). If new tires are installed on only one axle, a noticeable change in handling occurs due to the different tread depth of the other tires. This happens especially if only rear tires are replaced. However, this condition disappears as new tires are broken in. Drivers should adjust their driving style accordingly.

    Tire Aging

    Additionally, even though only the world’s highest performance tires can earn the Porsche N-Spec approval, eventually all tires will either wear out or age out. The chemical additives that make rubber elastic lose their effectiveness in the course of time and the rubber becomes brittle and cracks. Considering the performance capabilities of a Porsche, under no circum- stances should tires older than 6 years be used.

    How is a Tire Selected for a Porsche?

    The tires selected for a Porsche are chosen based on the model (sports car or SUV)‚ and the job the tires are asked to do.

    The 997, 996, Boxster and Cayman S are examples of the world’s finest exotic performance cars with some of the same capabilities found in previous generations of racecars. For these vehicles Porsche selects Maximum Ultra High Performance Summer tires from the world's leading tire manufacturers: Bridgestone, Continental, Michelin, Pirelli and Yokohama.

    And since Cayenne puts the sport in sport utility vehicle, emphasis is placed on high limits of performance balanced with the utility demanded by the Cayenne owner. Pirelli Scorpion A/T All-Terrain tires are chosen for highway use in all weather conditions, including snow and cold climates, as well as for off-road use. Continental 4X4 Contact and Pirelli Scorpion Zero tires are designed for highway use in all weather conditions including snow and cold climates. Bridgestone Turanza tires target a balance of performance and ride comfort for highway summer conditions. Continental 4X4 SportContact, Michelin 4x4 Diamaris, and Pirelli PZero Rosso tires are chosen for sports car-like handling in both wet and dry summer conditions.

     


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Winter tires

    Who is to day the DWS would not pass all the Porsche tests?  They have not been tested by Porsche.  I have tested them and I like them just fine.  I follow all the recomendations regarding not mixing sets, replacing if there is a puncture, etc.  Those are common sense and apply to all tires.

    All of the above does not change the fact the N tires are summer tires that don't work at all in the cold or snow.  For all their talk of safety the DWS are still better for those conditions and in the wet as well.  Not too mention they don't last, are noisy and can be a pain to balance.  I have had N tires and given all the testing and certification I am not impressed by their performance at all.

    My point is try them - you will be surprised.  So far the only people opposed to them are those who have not tried them and cling to the literature selling N tires.  The people how have tried them like myself and TB993tt see the benefits.

     


    Re: Winter tires

    Interesting discussion...seriously...because, there are indeed many tire companies, like for example Dunlop, having deals with Porsche tuners etc to prove the reliability....very tempting,  I may further add as a friend of mine works for Dunlop...

    But, my statement here is very simple, personally, I will stick to the recommendations of the car manufacturer and not of the tire company, because I want to have peace of mind while driving. I budget at least one set of tires a year for my driving which includes DD as well as track days and, knock on wood, hadn't had any tire problems so far - but, should that worst case happen, I do not want to ask myself later, whether the N-rated tire would have been better than the non-N rated tire I may have been running at that time. Therefore, yes, I will keep using the N-rated tires only and I will pay more for them - though, I am looking forward reading your reports on the DWS and non-N rated tires...

    my 2cts.

     


    Re: Winter tires

    Tuners have deals with tire companies for a reason.

    A. The tire companies guarantee a certain speed limit (which is pretty important on a 360 kph car), providing specific testing and evaluation, which of course also benefits the tire company (good publicity). The german TÜV requires a proper documentation, so the tire companies save the tuners huge amounts of (testing and documentation) money.

    B. In exchange, tuners get the tires at highly reduced prices (which is a huge advantage for tuners since a single high performance tire can cost 400-500 EUR and more)

    The N-classification has another huge benefit: It guarantees that a certain tire is the same and stays the same. Yes, the same, no differences at all. Meaning: The same N1 tire has the same specs as the same brand/type N1 tire available after three years. There is no difference. While the same brand/type may have been changed various times in these three years, the N-classification provides a guarantee that the tire is still the same (no changes in material mixture and/or tread).

    Again: Tires are the most important parts on your car (brakes come second), why wouldn't you listen to the car manufacturer recommendations ? It doesn't make any sense.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Winter tires

    Very pertinent to the "N" discussion is tyre fitment for 997GT3RS and 997GT2 which need a 325/30 x 19 size tyre and Porsche only approve the Michelin Cup+ and the Pirrelli Corsa (and the new Trofeo IIRC).

    Lots of owners would actually like a tyre which can be used in all weathers in particular when it rains. The only other tyres made in this 325/30 size are the contisport vmax and the conti sport forcecontact (which as mentioned by RC were originally developed primarily for Techart).

    There is a lot of interest in the new Michelin Supersport tyre which is getting rave reviews and there is quite a lot of excitement (certainly on Rennlist) about the prospect of getting the 325/30 size as a good alternative all rounder. The Michelin Supersport seems to have been tested extensively on the 997 (and the 997 is used in its literature) the 325 size has not yet been produced but there appears to be a strong demand despite the lack of the hallowed N


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    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: Winter tires

    "

    Again: Tires are the most important parts on your car (brakes come second), why wouldn't you listen to the car manufacturer recommendations ? It doesn't make any sense.


    "

    Why not do as recommended you ask...

    It is a recommendation.

    We are free to go our own path - and as a result report on our journey.

    They can not recommend all tires - they certainly do not prohibit DWS (in this day and age if there were a danger or any REAL INCREASE in risk they could not be sold)

    They are picking the very best tire regardless of cost for maximum performance.  I would not expect otherwise from Porsche.  When have we ever known them to take cost into consideration.  Good for them.  These recommendations are  FOR optimum conditions and best results.

    I drive all year round in all conditions.  Sorry Porsche simply do not recommend or certify a 'N' tire that would be safe for my needs - so I am making an informed decision that my safety comes first.  My bank account is happy too!  Ever wonder why they certify a summer tire and a winter tire but not an all season tire?  As the 991 is more of a GT car I would think the should look into this - another way to make more money!!

    Given the conditions I drive in, the limits in the US and the type of driving I do (routine 19 hour drives to Montreal, non stop 1400 miles) - would you really advise me to buy N rated tires?  I would be wearing them out driving down the highway at 80 mph, in cold, rain you name it.

    Have I answered why I would not buy and N tire and follow the manf recommendations?

    Since I doubt there will ever be a Magazine road test to back me up on this one - too much at stake for everyone - my using these tires is about all we have.  Sorry.

    BTW - Still think the driver matters most. 

    Lastly - you can bet that when Porsche puts those tires on the new cars they get them dirt cheap from the factory!  It is like the start of a subscription for the new owner - like when you get your mobile phone free in exchange for a 5 year plan.  It would be naive to think that Porsche and the N tire makers does not have a lot at stake and will do much to keep the genie in the bottle.  Bottom line is it is a recommendation from a bias party - take it for what it is worth.  My opinion is based on my experiance only.  From what I can see the Porsche marketing machine has done a very good job of driving this discussion in favor of N tires.  Love the free market and the power of persuasion.

    Good job Porsche - as long as some give you lots of money for extras it keeps my price down for the basics that work fine.


    Re: Winter tires

    TB993tt:
    The Michelin Supersport seems to have been tested extensively on the 997 (and the 997 is used in its literature) the 325 size has not yet been produced but there appears to be a strong demand despite the lack of the hallowed N.


    I spoke to one of the Michelin engineers about the subject and, as you mentioned, the 997 was one of the development vehicles for the regular Supersport and, while waiting for the N-spec, the regular tire could easily be used in the meantime. I asked specifically about the N-spec and, if I remember correctly, one of the differing elements was the adaption to the rear-biased weight distribution.


    Re: Winter tires

    Leawood911:
    It is a recommendation.

    We are free to go our own path - and as a result report on our journey.


    Leawood,

    I appreciate your recommendation and do believe that the DWS is a great tire as I have heard the same from other North American users before. I totally agree that the tire has to live up to one´s own expectations and usage and therefore might deviate from the car´s original spec. As you said, the slightly lower dry performance might be outweighted by the safetymargin in more adverse conditions. Nonetheless I would be very curious to compare this tire, I strongly doubt that the DWS would perform equally well as the common summertires mentioned above in a corner taken with 160 mph and I do believe that herein lies the rub. The different conditions lead to opposing requirements in tire development and something has to give in the process. I am especially surprised though about the longevity that you mentioned as this should lead to rather poor winter performance.


    Re: Winter tires

    Ferdie:
    TB993tt:
    The Michelin Supersport seems to have been tested extensively on the 997 (and the 997 is used in its literature) the 325 size has not yet been produced but there appears to be a strong demand despite the lack of the hallowed N.


    I spoke to one of the Michelin engineers about the subject and, as you mentioned, the 997 was one of the development vehicles for the regular Supersport and, while waiting for the N-spec, the regular tire could easily be used in the meantime. I asked specifically about the N-spec and, if I remember correctly, one of the differing elements was the adaption to the rear-biased weight distribution.

     

    That is THE point.

    Apart from compound difference which naked eye cannot see as all the tires are black, the internal construction also matters.

    For N spec tires, the tire sizes for rear fitments will have a stronger internal structure than the same tire in the same size without the N spec. The front fitment could also be tweaked in construction as the front isn't carrying as much weight. These internal differences also cannot be seen by naked eye.

    For North American drivers, the stability of the tire at sustained high speed doesn't matter, only 1/3 to 1/2 of the car's high speed capability is used, so pretty much any normal tires even without N spec will work satisfactorily as the car is not stressing even el cheapo tires to the limit. But for those with access to Autobahn, it's not uncommon for drivers to drive a whole tank of gas at sustained speed above 150mph, at that point the tire construction comes into play and whether the tire is N rated or not makes a big difference.

     


    Re: Winter tires

    Despite the fact that the DWS is a Y speed index tire (Porsche sizes), meaning that it is approved for speed lower than what a Carrera GTS for example is capable of, it cannot replace a true winter tire.

    There has been some time over here in Germany when "All-Season" tires were very popular because they saved a lot of money. Then, people realized that they weren't too good in summer and even worse in winter time. 

    Why wouldn't someone who cares about cars want to drive the best tire available in summer and winter ? I always look out for maximum performance. Especially in winter time, tires are essential to traction and braking.

    I even special ordered H winter tires for X5 M because the OEM wheel set from BMW contains V speed index winter tires only. I once drove with the same V speed index winter tire for a day to the mountains for skiing and this tire was horrible. Especially braking performance was worse, I won't forget that day. Surprisingly, BMW "cheated" in various winter driving tests with their X5 M and X6 M: both cars were equipped with H rated winter tires (and achieved fantastic performance results on snow and ice) but they sell only V rated winter tires to customers.  Funny.

    The Continental ExtremeContact DWS is surely one of the best, if not the best all-season tire available for high performance cars but like I said in older posts, it is neither fish nor meat. Meaning: You don't get maximum performance in dry, wet or snow and personally, I care a lot about tire performance.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Winter tires

    What is the size of the contact area of a tire on the road - something like a postcard, give and take ? With this little area in mind, I'd rather not risk anything here. Therefore, yes, "We are free to go our own path", and, yes, I am happy to spend the extra money to get - what I in my opinion - is the best material available.

    By the way, it would be nice to eventually get some snow over here in Germany......it is sometimes a bit boring to only read about "winter tires"...

     

     


    Re: Winter tires

    November 2011 was the driest month in Bavaria since they actually record weather data on a regular basis, thus for more than 100 years. I'm pretty sure that sooner or later, the rain will come and since we have december and winter is just around the corner, most of it will come as snow to us.

    We could face a real snow catastrophe over here in Bavaria but of course this is just speculation.

    Right now, even the start of the skiing season in the Alps has been postponed.

    Today we have 6°C (42°F)...on the top of the Zugspitze, Germany's highest mountain. Way too warm for skiing and/or snow.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


     
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