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    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    easy_rider911:

    Exactly - nobody belittles the Bentley Continental GT's engine even though it is essentially the same engine as that used in the VW Phaeton W12...

     

    Yes, they do.  The hardcore Bentley people have a huge prejudice against the VW motor and insist on the old 6.75L V8.
     

     


    --
    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs) Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2


    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    Grant:
    easy_rider911:

    Exactly - nobody belittles the Bentley Continental GT's engine even though it is essentially the same engine as that used in the VW Phaeton W12...

     

    Yes, they do.  The hardcore Bentley people have a huge prejudice against the VW motor and insist on the old 6.75L V8.
     

     

     


     

    Those push-rod 6.75L motor Bentley loving people are all 60-80 years old now putzing around the gardens in their country hutches in the British countryside - not exactly a prime market , esp when going forward the  buyers of lux cars are in their 30s/40s in Russia and China who grew up on buses and bicycles just 20 years ago.


    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    Damn, a sad day for us allSmiley The last independent sports car manufacturer is gone...

    The most interesting thing will be to see if VW keeps Porsche independent, or if Porsche will be "positioned" in relation to Audi and Lamborghini. Vee-dub has done a pretty good job with Lambo, Bugatti and Bentley. But the ties to Porsche are much stronger, and I'm sure Piech has a few ideas about Porsches future. Will f ex the next Boxster be a 4-cyl joint venture with VW, Audi, and heaven forbid, SkodaSmileySmiley

    Can't say that I like that VW now controls this many brands....

     

    And what the hell was Porsche (or rather Wiedking) thinking trying to buy VW? I wondered how on earth they would have the money to do that, I know they're the most profitable car company, but still. I guess we know the answer to that now, they didn't.

    I am a bit sad today, even if Porsche remains the same under Piech, it is the end of an era. Oh well, I guess I will have to enjoy driving my "independent" BMWSmiley


    --

    10 PRINT "997.2 Carrera S rules"

    20 GOTO 10

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    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    temm:

     

    And what the hell was Porsche (or rather Wiedking) thinking trying to buy VW? I wondered how on earth they would have the money to do that, I know they're the most profitable car company, but still. I guess we know the answer to that now, they didn't.

    I am a bit sad today, even if Porsche remains the same under Piech, it is the end of an era. Oh well, I guess I will have to enjoy driving my "independent" BMWSmiley

    Temm,

    Read this article if you time it is very interesting.

    http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread/20112791/Family_Feuds_Behind_VWPorsche_Deal/page1.html

     


    --
    Happy Driving

    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    Can't say I'm sad to see him go personally. He took the company in hard times and took some tough desitions in order to make it profitable again, but once it has profitable he kept on the same line and moving away from the Porsche's philosophy and identity which made many of us fans of Porsche since young. Up to the point of using a profitable sportcar company as collateral for gambling in the stock market giving rise to the irony of a very profitable and succesfull sportcar maker finding itself in backrupt.

    I for one have gone from a pesimistic initial reaction of the loss of independance of Porsche to an optimistic one. For me, the price Porsche was paying (and more so, us the sportcar fans) to independant in these last years, was to high to pay and was leading Porsche in a direction that, as a Porsche and sportcar fan, didn't like (motorsport is a part of the past, underpowered diesel engines, etc). Porsche has lost too much "Porschiness" in the process and the only part that was still inpired my passion was the 911, but no longer the brand. Now those responsible are gone and that a guy like Piech will have a bigger grip on the reins I think it will be for the better, Piech inspite his faults is a sportcar fan, and is not 100% profit driven as WW and the like (ex: Veyron project).

    Also there is the fact that being a part of the VW group will decrease the need for diesel engines, decrease the need widening the model lineup to more and more non-sportcar vehicles, likely more funding and interest for motorracing (it couldn't get worse that now), etc ... all those sacrifices that the "independence" needed.

    But most of all, there is a difference between an small car company that had gone bankrupt being eaten by the larger fish and Porsche's unique situation/merger, and is the fact that Porsche is very profitable as a car company!, the reason for bankrupcy was other, and this dictates a very different future after the merger than a non-profitable company that gets swallowed, and big changes need to be made, philosofies need to change, etc. Porsche as a sportcar company is the chicken of the golden eggs and its relationship with VW will benefit everybody if its symbiotic. Afraid of a VW engine in a Porsche? then what do you think the Cayenne's V6 are? they are Tuaregs assembled at Leipzig from its chasis to the engines, all Porsche does it puts those two together and a Porsche badge on the hood. And in iconic vehicles like the 911 are so unique that little part sharing can be made except for interior gadgets which can be a good thing. Not to mention that Porsche can build excellent engines like the V8 and trannies like the PDK for VW group sportcar models and not necesarily the other way around, Porsche is very profitable inspite of building most of its own engines, its not like a bankrupt company that needs engine sharing to make it cost-effective like Lambo or Bentley, at least not in its important models like the 911, Boxster, and top of the line Cayenne, and Panamera, and in the lower ones there is already engine sharing with VW (and even chassis and tranny in the cayenne).


    --


    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    Thanks Ron


    --

    10 PRINT "997.2 Carrera S rules"

    20 GOTO 10

    30 RUN


    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    MKW:
    Grant:
    easy_rider911:

    Exactly - nobody belittles the Bentley Continental GT's engine even though it is essentially the same engine as that used in the VW Phaeton W12...

    Yes, they do.  The hardcore Bentley people have a huge prejudice against the VW motor and insist on the old 6.75L V8. 

     

    Those push-rod 6.75L motor Bentley loving people are all 60-80 years old now putzing around the gardens in their country hutches in the British countryside - not exactly a prime market , esp when going forward the  buyers of lux cars are in their 30s/40s in Russia and China who grew up on buses and bicycles just 20 years ago.


    Exactly Smiley Bentley Motors is only alive today because of VW's financial backing and the new-money buyers (Russians, Chinese, Arabs, celebs, soccer stars, younger/aspirational types etc) who want to buy a Bentley Continental GT. (Think back to how many people bought a Continental GT when J Lo bought one. One may or may not like J Lo but she was good for business Smiley). The old school crowd (in the 60-80 years old bracket) are the reason why Bentley Motors (prior to VW injecting new life into the brand) was a near bankrupt shadow of its former self. So, their opinion is simply to resist any change (even if it is manifestly for the better and reinvigorates the marque).
     


    --

    Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 C2S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    Carlos from Spain:

    Can't say I'm sad to see him go personally. He took the company in hard times and took some tough desitions in order to make it profitable again, but once it has profitable he kept on the same line and moving away from the Porsche's philosophy and identity which made many of us fans of Porsche since young. Up to the point of using a profitable sportcar company as collateral for gambling in the stock market giving rise to the irony of a very profitable and succesfull sportcar maker finding itself in backrupt.

    I for one have gone from a pesimistic initial reaction of the loss of independance of Porsche to an optimistic one. For me, the price Porsche was paying (and more so, us the sportcar fans) to independant in these last years, was to high to pay and was leading Porsche in a direction that, as a Porsche and sportcar fan, didn't like (motorsport is a part of the past, underpowered diesel engines, etc). Porsche has lost too much "Porschiness" in the process and the only part that was still inpired my passion was the 911, but no longer the brand. Now those responsible are gone and that a guy like Piech will have a bigger grip on the reins I think it will be for the better, Piech inspite his faults is a sportcar fan, and is not 100% profit driven as WW and the like (ex: Veyron project).

    Also there is the fact that being a part of the VW group will decrease the need for diesel engines, decrease the need widening the model lineup to more and more non-sportcar vehicles, likely more funding and interest for motorracing (it couldn't get worse that now), etc ... all those sacrifices that the "independence" needed.

    But most of all, there is a difference between an small car company that had gone bankrupt being eaten by the larger fish and Porsche's unique situation/merger, and is the fact that Porsche is very profitable as a car company!, the reason for bankrupcy was other, and this dictates a very different future after the merger than a non-profitable company that gets swallowed, and big changes need to be made, philosofies need to change, etc. Porsche as a sportcar company is the chicken of the golden eggs and its relationship with VW will benefit everybody if its symbiotic. Afraid of a VW engine in a Porsche? then what do you think the Cayenne's V6 are? they are Tuaregs assembled at Leipzig from its chasis to the engines, all Porsche does it puts those two together and a Porsche badge on the hood. And in iconic vehicles like the 911 are so unique that little part sharing can be made except for interior gadgets which can be a good thing. Not to mention that Porsche can build excellent engines like the V8 and trannies like the PDK for VW group sportcar models and not necesarily the other way around, Porsche is very profitable inspite of building most of its own engines, its not like a bankrupt company that needs engine sharing to make it cost-effective like Lambo or Bentley, at least not in its important models like the 911, Boxster, and top of the line Cayenne, and Panamera, and in the lower ones there is already engine sharing with VW (and even chassis and tranny in the cayenne).


    --

    I agree with all the points you make Smiley

    Porsche cannot become "less-Porsche" than what it has become today. Things can only get better. Also VW is part of german industrial heritage. It is not as if Porsche was bought by KIA Motors of Korea.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    According to Tagesschau, Porsche and Piech families have announced that Porsche will continue to be an "independent" company with headquarter in Stuttgart, although it will be ultimately owned by VWAG.

    I guess as long as Porsche is profitable in operative business, not much will change.


    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    Who would be the ultimate decision maker on product line ? I'd say VW.


    --
    Happy Driving

    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    Carlos from Spain:

    Porsche has lost too much "Porschiness" in the process and the only part that was still inpired my passion was the 911, but no longer the brand.

    I agree.  These days I am no longer a Porache fan, I am a Porsche sports car fan (including Boxster).  Porsche still builds awsome sports cars but the brand does not inpsire me anymore, and certainly not the Porsche family.  Ferry Porsche was a great engineer with great vision, he brought us the 911.  The Porsche family?  why do I care?  why should I care if they own Porsche the car company?  Have the current generation of Porsche done anything to us sports car fans?  I realy don't care who, VW, Porsche, Piech, (it can even be Martian), is in charge. 
     


    --

    93' Guard Red 968 Coupe


    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    Carlos from Spain:

    Can't say I'm sad to see him go personally. He took the company in hard times and took some tough desitions in order to make it profitable again, but once it has profitable he kept on the same line and moving away from the Porsche's philosophy and identity which made many of us fans of Porsche since young. Up to the point of using a profitable sportcar company as collateral for gambling in the stock market giving rise to the irony of a very profitable and succesfull sportcar maker finding itself in backrupt.

    I for one have gone from a pesimistic initial reaction of the loss of independance of Porsche to an optimistic one. For me, the price Porsche was paying (and more so, us the sportcar fans) to independant in these last years, was to high to pay and was leading Porsche in a direction that, as a Porsche and sportcar fan, didn't like (motorsport is a part of the past, underpowered diesel engines, etc). Porsche has lost too much "Porschiness" in the process and the only part that was still inpired my passion was the 911, but no longer the brand. Now those responsible are gone and that a guy like Piech will have a bigger grip on the reins I think it will be for the better, Piech inspite his faults is a sportcar fan, and is not 100% profit driven as WW and the like (ex: Veyron project).

    Also there is the fact that being a part of the VW group will decrease the need for diesel engines, decrease the need widening the model lineup to more and more non-sportcar vehicles, likely more funding and interest for motorracing (it couldn't get worse that now), etc ... all those sacrifices that the "independence" needed.

    But most of all, there is a difference between an small car company that had gone bankrupt being eaten by the larger fish and Porsche's unique situation/merger, and is the fact that Porsche is very profitable as a car company!, the reason for bankrupcy was other, and this dictates a very different future after the merger than a non-profitable company that gets swallowed, and big changes need to be made, philosofies need to change, etc. Porsche as a sportcar company is the chicken of the golden eggs and its relationship with VW will benefit everybody if its symbiotic. Afraid of a VW engine in a Porsche? then what do you think the Cayenne's V6 are? they are Tuaregs assembled at Leipzig from its chasis to the engines, all Porsche does it puts those two together and a Porsche badge on the hood. And in iconic vehicles like the 911 are so unique that little part sharing can be made except for interior gadgets which can be a good thing. Not to mention that Porsche can build excellent engines like the V8 and trannies like the PDK for VW group sportcar models and not necesarily the other way around, Porsche is very profitable inspite of building most of its own engines, its not like a bankrupt company that needs engine sharing to make it cost-effective like Lambo or Bentley, at least not in its important models like the 911, Boxster, and top of the line Cayenne, and Panamera, and in the lower ones there is already engine sharing with VW (and even chassis and tranny in the cayenne).


    --

     I agree 100% ....Smiley


    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    An article on the new shareholders from Qatar

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aobTTMoQc8rI


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    The Emir of Qatar and his elegant wife:

    emir.jpg

    Qatars_Emir_Sheikh_9d7d.JPG


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    sargozy.jpg

    Lots of class these  two ladies

     


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    Carlos from Spain -great post. +1

    While admittedly I am sad that Porsche is no longer a stand-alone company, I don't think Porsches will wander away any further from their core philosophy with Piech at the helm. Perhaps what concerns me more is what happens after Piech. At 72, the once-engineer's prime may last another ten years, but then who takes over from there? I hope the future VW Group will be able to maintain the individuality of their many brands, and takes to heart the lessons learned (the hard way) by GM in the latter half of the mid-twentieth century.


    --
    2008 Boxster S


    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    awai08:

    Carlos from Spain -great post. +1


     

    +1 Smiley


    --

    Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 C2S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

     

    It´s all over - WW leaving the factory in Zuffenhausen.

    (Bild)

    http://www.bild.de/BILD/politik/wirtschaft/2009/07/24/porsche/wiedeking/machtkampf-beendet-50-millionen-abfindung-fuer-wiedeking.html

     Yesterday evening in the 8 o´clock news on TV, there was a very emotional moment. WW and Mr. Porsche spoke in front of the factory to the workers: "the myth porsche will never die"

    Mr. Porsche was under tears during his speach.Smiley

     

    Blueflame Smiley

     

    ww1.jpgww2.jpg


    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    I am very sad that Porsche is no longer an independent manufacturer.

    However in recent years its dependence on outside suppliers has necessarily continued to increase as development becomes ever more costly and WW continued to drive for even greater profitability. So there was interdependence already. What was different was that Porsche could choose its partners without undue influence. That will change as procurement will no doubt be centralized and that freedom is removed.  

    VW affords the luxury of semi-independent brands under its banner only because of Piech's influence; his engineering indulgence (wonderfully giving us the R8, Veyron and the like) and ego. But as others have said, when he is gone there will be others who can show 'success' by 'realizing synergies' and improving profitability at the cost of the great projects and vision of Piech cars with marketing overtaking substance.

    I don't think much will change from Porsche in the short term but I can't imagine that the talented team that has given us cars like the GT3 will remain intact for very long as the independence, leadership and vision of Porsche is replaced by a new, more distant one.

    Its a pity that a bit more of the very high profits weren't re-invested to ensure independence and unfortunately that greed has cost them dearly.

    Anyway we are where we are so I suppose that we can look forward to a secure future for the brand whatever the EU legislators throw at them and it opens up a whole new world for us.  Anyone want to do a photoshop of the VW Bluesport roadster for us with curvy styling and Porsche badges?? 


    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    Hück said that it was unfair how Wiedeking was treated, that WW was publicly executed.

    His view is that VW did not take over Porsche, it was more like a merger as Porsche remains independent and in control about their model lineup, development and sales.

    He continued that WW resigned because he was treated so badly and that if WW had wanted to stay, they would have found a solution.

    Interview in German: 

    http://www.tagesthemen.de/wirtschaft/porsche234.html


    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    "Handshake" was 50 mil € ?? Smiley

    btw one of  seven emirs wife Smiley 


    --
    Oversteer is when the passengers are scared, Understeer is when the driver is scared.

    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

     Rumor is, half of the 50mil € will go to charity.


    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    WW was a very influential CEO and left his mark on the company in many positive ways.

    However, everyone is judged by his last deed and in his case that was the irresponsible VW takeover strategy that led Porsche to the verge of bankruptcy. Actually, his erroneous usage of corporate funds borders reckless mismanagement and the long period of cover-up regarding Porsche's bad cash position could be viewed as dishonest.

    Unfortunately for WW, that's how he will be remembered in the future and his role in German industrial history is already tarnished. Napoleon is remembered mostly for Waterloo all his victories are only known to history teachers.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    This is how I see the future of Porsche:

    1. 911 (starting with a stripped down "entry-level" model up to the GT2)

    2. Boxster (starting with "entry-level" model with Audi technology up to Boxster RS)

    3. Cayman must go, it takes customers from Boxster or 911

    4. Cayenne (starting with "entry-level" 340 HP Diesel up to Turbo S/GT and V12 Diesel)

    5. Panamera limousine (starting with "entry-level" 340 HP Diesel up to Turbo S/GT)

    6. Panamera Coupe (how about simply "Porsche Coupe"?) with engines similar to limousine

    7. GT1 or new Carrera GT for "prestige" and "glory"

    I would not introduce an entry-level Porsche below the Boxster, it could destroy the Porsche reputation. Another problem are prices. Porsche cars are very expensive. I would offer entry-level models of each model with less options and earn my money with additional options.

    Porsche is not Lamborghini or Bentley, Porsche produced around 100000 cars last year, there is no real exlusivity, so they can't just ask big money for their cars, this didn't work out in the past and it won't work out in the future. Instead, they need to keep production figures high or even higher and SELL MORE cars, at the same time lowering production cost and prices.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    I don't agree with you as regards the mid-engined platform. A sportscar manufacturer must offer a mid-engined coupe with engines of high PS and price it accordingly. A 400PS Cayman (or similar) could be priced at 911 prices. Then the customer picks and chooses.

    Also I would like to see a minimal Boxster/Cayman  very lightweight and sharp with a small engine similar to Lotus Elise for those who don't care about luxuries but are track oriented or want a weekend fun car.

     


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    Nothing in the Porsche website "Press Releases" yet, about WW's departure and the new status quo!

    Isn't this bad for public relations. Are they at a state of confusion?


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    It's a sad day for Porsche - the brand, it's customers and employees. But this saga reflects many of the changes in the worldwide consumer product businesses. That is, for companies to survive requires mass. Small niche players cannot compete efficiently to provide ever-increasingly complex products at competitive prices.

    WW cited and demonstrated this when he decided to go forward with SUV's. It occurred at an earlier time when it was thought that the scale that the Cayanne would provide would be sufficient to fuel the company and it's independence.

    But in the end, the comment from the Fiat CEO, when failing to secure all aspects of his acquisition plan is telling. That he could not make ends meet at a scale less than 10 million units per year.

    So though hubris is repeatedly cited as the reason for the planned VW takeover, it was in fact a continuance of the Porsche's volume strategy. In this case, to inorganically construct a company with reach and scale that could survive and thrive in the current and projected consumer economy.

    Yes it failed. Sort of. But in fact the results are likely not far from what would have happened it if had succeeded. WW would have had to find more efficiencies, part and product sharing and any other technique necessary to compete in a global market. Left to an independent company, Porsche would have had to either dramatically raise prices, build new high-volume low-priced non-Porsches, or withered.

    Those who criticize the events of the past days and weeks fail to recognize that our beloved Porsche was in an unstable position. In that context, this is, by far, the best possible outcome.


    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    reginos:

    Nothing in the Porsche website "Press Releases" yet, about WW's departure and the new status quo!

    Isn't this bad for public relations. Are they at a state of confusion?

     

     

    Check the Porsche SE press releases.


    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    Spyderidol:
    reginos:

    Nothing in the Porsche website "Press Releases" yet, about WW's departure and the new status quo!

    Isn't this bad for public relations. Are they at a state of confusion?

     

     

    Check the Porsche SE press releases.

    Of course, thanks for letting me know Smiley


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: CEO Dr. Wiedeking and CFO Härter have left Porsche

    http://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutporsche/pressreleases/pag/?pool=international-de&id=2009-07-23

     


    --
    Happy Driving

     
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