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    Re: The new Ford GT

    I know (918, 911R) but this just isn't my thing, can't help it. Cars are toys for me, I cannot see them as investments. Maybe because I cannot really afford those really interesting "investment" cars? indecision


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: The new Ford GT

    RC:

    I know (918, 911R) but this just isn't my thing, can't help it. Cars are toys for me, I cannot see them as investments. Maybe because I cannot really afford those really interesting "investment" cars? indecision

    It's sometimes hard to choose new cars that will appreciate much, but it's pretty easy to know which cars have no chance to appreciate and will almost certainly steeply depreciate (and I can't afford to buy the latter).


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: The new Ford GT

    So I guess I'm lucky I lease my cars... indecision

    There are two types of cars I would never buy: Tesla or any hybrid. Ask me in 10-20 years again. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: The new Ford GT

    If you want some investment advice, RC, buy every limited Ferrari you can get your hands. Free money. No questions asked. They'll far outpace your stock investments as well.

    That said, you'll probably never have the opportunity to get one, thus I guess it doesn't matter much ;)


    Re: The new Ford GT

    noone1:

    If you want some investment advice, RC, buy every limited Ferrari you can get your hands. Free money. No questions asked. They'll far outpace your stock investments as well.

    I'm afraid I'm not that wealthy. Also, I doubt Ferrari would sell me these cars since I am no loyal customer.



    That said, you'll probably never have the opportunity to get one, thus I guess it doesn't matter much ;)

    Ferrari? Not really. Porsche? Very likely but after my R8 adventure, I am not easily satisfied. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: The new Ford GT

    RC:

    So I guess I'm lucky I lease my cars... indecision

    Yes, you get the depreciation with interest on top indecision


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: The new Ford GT

    bluelines:
    RC:

    So I guess I'm lucky I lease my cars... indecision

    Yes, you get the depreciation with interest on top indecision

    :D


    Re: The new Ford GT

    bluelines:
    RC:

    So I guess I'm lucky I lease my cars... indecision

    Yes, you get the depreciation with interest on top indecision

    Smiley


    --

    1992 Mercedes-Benz W124 500E / 2003 BMW M3 CSL (sold) / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2014 BMW-Alpina B3 biturbo Touring Allrad


    Re: The new Ford GT

    bluelines:
    RC:

    So I guess I'm lucky I lease my cars... indecision

    Yes, you get the depreciation with interest on top indecision

    Well, apparently you are not a very good negotiator. Smiley

    What you said makes no sense with many lease offers, just do the math.
     


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: The new Ford GT

    How much are you paying per month on your R8, RC? How many months?


    Re: The new Ford GT

    noone1:

    How much are you paying per month on your R8, RC? How many months?

    800 EUR incl. VAT for 48 months. 10k km per year (40k km total but I can do up to 50k km without a serious penalty). Initial payment was pretty low (I can tell you via PM) and I got the winter wheels (a 8.5k EUR value) for free. Car wasn't new though (2xxx km and one month or so old, don't remember anymore...dealer showcar) but officially I picked it up at 5000 km (unofficially at 2xxx Smiley), drove it for three months on dealer registration (and insurance), got a free inspection and oil change at 5000 km (when we registered it on my name). MSRP is 220k EUR.

    Car has five years warranty.

    Let me put it this way: The car costs me (lease cost) the value of a basic Boxster 718 with a few options for these four years. Actually less if I count in the free winter wheels. After four years I can decide if I want to buy it or not. If I can get it for under 85k EUR, I will probably buy it. If dealer doesn't agree, I will choose something new. Or I go for the facelift in 2019 but I'm not sure this is a clever thing to do financially. Getting out of a lease earlier can be costly if the dealer doesn't offer a good deal. 

    Btw: For 36 months, cost would have been only 700 EUR per month but I knew after a few days how much I love this car, so I decided to go for 48 months instead.

    Audi really has a problem with the R8 and leases: Many lease deals fall through because customers cannot afford this car (according to VW Financial). My dealer had a over five people signing a contract which fell through afterwards. If the credit rating and income isn't high enough, well...bad luck. 


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: The new Ford GT

    That is a ridiculously low rate per month. Just the interest should be 800E a month (5%). Depreciation should be 2,500E a month (120k over 48 months), assuming zero deposit though.

    If there were leases that cheap in the USA there would be R8 every street corner.


    Re: The new Ford GT

    I don't think RC's lease is indicative of the vast majority of them. Doubt you can walk into a dealer and get that lease on a new car.


    Re: The new Ford GT

    RC:
    bluelines:
    RC:

    So I guess I'm lucky I lease my cars... indecision

    Yes, you get the depreciation with interest on top indecision

    Well, apparently you are not a very good negotiator. Smiley

    What you said makes no sense with many lease offers, just do the math.

    I have done the math many times. So have Audi financial services. That is why you drive their car and pay the depreciation with interest on top. Or do you think they are making money by doing a loss? SmileySmiley

    Once you take the actual price (not MSRP), initial payment and market versus book value into account, all the numbers come together. You can smile and say that you did a great deal, but I can assure you that Audi smiles even more Smiley


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: The new Ford GT

    They are not losing any money since the car was a demostrator and they will get to sell it after 4.5 years again for a decent price. I think RC's deal is decent if you have money to burn. The question in general is: does it make sense to lease/rent a sunday car that you will only drive in a few trips to Italy and a few autobahn runs? Or allocate money to a car that potentially won't depreciate and keep it for a few years (with a very modest use) and sell it in the future for a potential profit?


    Re: The new Ford GT

    Slightly OT (Not fully Rennteam crazy OT...)

    "This week we take a ride in artist Camilo Pardo’s 2005 Ford GT. If you’re unfamiliar with the man, you best strap in: Camilo Pardo was the lead designer on the Ford GT program."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOzbPGjvPrY


    Re: The new Ford GT

    SciFrog:

    That is a ridiculously low rate per month. Just the interest should be 800E a month (5%). Depreciation should be 2,500E a month (120k over 48 months), assuming zero deposit though.

    If there were leases that cheap in the USA there would be R8 every street corner.

    I know, I know but the problem is that even ridiculously low lease offers fall through because the VW bank says no. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: The new Ford GT

    noone1:

    I don't think RC's lease is indicative of the vast majority of them. Doubt you can walk into a dealer and get that lease on a new car.

    First, I really negotiate and I take my time but you are right, it may not be indicative for a vast majority, also because the cars I usually choose are not in very high demand and/or there are special offers anyway.

    I told you guys before: Audi had a special lease offer for a S8 Plus (worth around 160-170k EUR), 699 EUR per month (incl. VAT), 24 months, no initial payment. They moved 1000(!) cars within a couple of days. At one dealership in Germany, they even made a mistake and moved a couple of S8 Plus at a 399(!) EUR lease rate until Audi stopped them. Deals are valid though since it was a binding contract. 

    The reason was simple: Huge stock of S8 Plus and the new A8 is coming soon.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: The new Ford GT

    wantone:

    They are not losing any money since the car was a demostrator and they will get to sell it after 4.5 years again for a decent price. I think RC's deal is decent if you have money to burn. The question in general is: does it make sense to lease/rent a sunday car that you will only drive in a few trips to Italy and a few autobahn runs? Or allocate money to a car that potentially won't depreciate and keep it for a few years (with a very modest use) and sell it in the future for a potential profit?

    I already have 13000 km on it, so... Smiley Autobahn runs? Maybe 1500 km or so were made on the Autobahn, I'm not really a fan of the Autobahn, even if I drive fast. It is no fun.

    For me, it is worth every penny but I am a car addict.

    Money to burn? My vacations within a year cost more... Smiley Smiley

    Do you really suggest I should choose a car which won't depreciate (very likely) just to save a few bucks? Smiley  Getting a car is an emotional thing for me and usually I choose based on my desire for a car and of course my financial possibilities (and my social environment to some point) at that time. I would have loved the Huracan but it would have been substantially(!) more expensive than my R8. So I made a choice and I cannot say I'm unhappy with it. The R8 is wonderful, a Huracan at a fraction of the cost. Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: The new Ford GT

    For a car not to depreciate you have to keep it in the garage. You drive your cars a lot...


    Re: The new Ford GT

    SciFrog:

    For a car not to depreciate you have to keep it in the garage. You drive your cars a lot...

    True. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: The new Ford GT

    Christian, I am trying to get my head around your post regarding your lease terms. For 48 months 800 euro and for 36 months 700 euro? What am I missing? 

    FWIW, your lease terms would be unheard of in the US. I subscribe to buying cars but in certain instances I lease as I did with my Targa. I did this because I will be turning in the car for the GT3 after 12-18 months. I crunched the numbers and found leasing would be the most financially responsible approach. Also, with a lease I am protected should my car be involved in an accident. Porsche leasing would assume the loss of value.


    --

    "A man wrapped up in himself makes for a very small bundle."


    Re: The new Ford GT

    nberry:

    Christian, I am trying to get my head around your post regarding your lease terms. For 48 months 800 euro and for 36 months 700 euro? What am I missing? 

    Nothing. There is a small initial payment as well but not really worth mentioning for such a car.

    FWIW, your lease terms would be unheard of in the US. I subscribe to buying cars but in certain instances I lease as I did with my Targa. I did this because I will be turning in the car for the GT3 after 12-18 months. I crunched the numbers and found leasing would be the most financially responsible approach. Also, with a lease I am protected should my car be involved in an accident. Porsche leasing would assume the loss of value.

    You need to catch a good moment for a deal. I went to the Audi dealer for the RS6 Performance and ended up with the R8. Smiley

    Interesting: A few months ago, my dealer had a very special lease offer for a couple of RS6 Performance because their stock was too big. Then, last week an incredible offer for the S8 Plus, no wonder they moved 1000(!) cars (Germany) in only a couple of days.

    Take my Porsche dealer and the lease offer for my wife's Cayenne S Diesel (MSRP 135k EUR) last December. 1300 EUR (incl. VAT) per month, 18 months only, 25k km, no initial payment. Hassle free and free 19'' winter wheels on top. He basically begged us to take this deal. Not as good as the R8 deal but still...

    You never get these deals on cars in high demand but of course Germany is a lease market and I also kind of have the feeling lately that the car market over here is under huge pressure.

    The best thing about these deals is: You return the car to the dealer after the lease ends and voila...you're done. No headaches, worry-free, just perfect. Smiley Only mileage leases of course. There are rare residual value leases over here but you need to be nuts to do that.

    I just recently returned my Jeep SRT to the lease company, even got back 3k EUR because I only had 13k km with this car. Car had a few scratches and the plastic covers in the trunk were also scratched but nothing out of the usual, so no penalty. Didn't lease/buy a new car from the dealer but no big deal, no problems. Great. Smiley

    So why doesn't everyone in Germany lease their cars? Simple: You need an excellent credit score and sufficient income (you need to prove it) to get an approval, especially for cars over 60k EUR or so. This seems to be the real deal breaker for many potential customers because like I said before, many already signed lease contracts fall through because the banks don't approve them.

    I leased three cars (R8, 911 GTS, Mini JCW), worth a total of 420k EUR. So my credit score seems to be OK. Smiley

    So yes, I could afford getting a Lamborghini or Ferrari or McLaren but it would cost me substantially more money. What for? The R8 is an amazing car and I already have difficulties to drive this car at the limit, so why would I be crazy to get something even faster? Not worth it. For now. Maybe the Huracan Performante doesn't sell well and I get a special lease offer? Smiley Smiley Smiley Nah, not going to happen I'm afraid.

    Would I ever buy a car? Yes. The last R8 with V10 or a Huracan with V10, maybe even an Aventador SV. Nothing else. 

    Ask me again in 10 years, maybe I will drive a Mercedes S class then, I don't have a clue. Smiley People change. Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: The new Ford GT

    What would leasing a new R8 cost in comparison?  I want to understand if lease deals for new R8s are cheap or whether you just caught a break because you leased a demonstrator (which probably has a significantly less value on the resale market).  


    Re: The new Ford GT

    There is no magic to these lease deals. At the end of the lease term the car has a calculated market value which has to be equal or higher than the book value.

    I guess RC's demonstrator was 20% less below MSRP, since he is an amazing negotiator, which leaves us at 170k. The initial payment was at least 10%, but probably more, to get the monthly rate down. I take a stab at 15% which leaves us at 145k. Then a monthly rate 800 for 48 months including interest. Residual around 110k?

    RC has paid 60k to rent a car which is owned by Audi leasing. As he said, it cost him a 718 Boxster with some options.

    If you start at MSRP 220k the deal will look quite different since you have another 50k to finance. 

     


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: The new Ford GT

    It also depends on the lease rate they used. If a subsidized 1.9% for example then cost of financing is low->low payment. If a high margin 7.9% then cost is high.


    Re: The new Ford GT

    bluelines:

    There is no magic to these lease deals. At the end of the lease term the car has a calculated market value which has to be equal or higher than the book value.

    I guess RC's demonstrator was 20% less below MSRP, since he is an amazing negotiator, which leaves us at 170k. The initial payment was at least 10%, but probably more, to get the monthly rate down. I take a stab at 15% which leaves us at 145k. Then a monthly rate 800 for 48 months including interest. Residual around 110k?

    RC has paid 60k to rent a car which is owned by Audi leasing. As he said, it cost him a 718 Boxster with some options.

    If you start at MSRP 220k the deal will look quite different since you have another 50k to finance. 

     

    Leasing a new car was quite "affordable" as well recently. Not sure how this will pan out once spring comes and demand of such cars rises.

    My initial payment was very low...I just don't want to talk about it because I'm actually not supposed to post the exact figures on the internet. Smiley My dealer is very anal about individual deals and I understand (and appreciate) him for that.

    Conny, the other guy with a R8 in this forum, also got a very good deal and I am pretty sure he won't unveil all details but his (new) R8 is amazing. Just wait and see.

    Yes, I am basically driving a R8 rental for four years for almost 60k EUR. Is it a lot of money? Of course it is but I still think it is acceptable for the performance and the fun factor of the R8.

    Regarding market values and book values and so on after the lease ends: Dealer can write off a lot of stuff, especially when the dealership is part of a larger network of dealerships. As a hint: The boss of my dealership has almost 3000(!) employees. Smiley Huge company, probably one reason they can afford so many good deals, they also own VW and Porsche dealerships and of course...Lamborghini. There is a reason I went to get my R8 there... Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: The new Ford GT

    wantone:

    It also depends on the lease rate they used. If a subsidized 1.9% for example then cost of financing is low->low payment. If a high margin 7.9% then cost is high.

    In my opinion, the whole car market in Germany is in huge trouble right now and some pretty good deals can be made if you are not eager to get a car which is in very high demand. Lease deals seem to be excellent because...many of them fall through. Just my personal theory though. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: The new Ford GT

    If I remember correctly you get a very good deal on insurance if you finance your R8 thru Audi:

    Friend basically bought the car and just financed a very small part to get a cheap insurance.


    Re: The new Ford GT

    Kobalt:

    If I remember correctly you get a very good deal on insurance if you finance your R8 thru Audi:

    Friend basically bought the car and just financed a very small part to get a cheap insurance.

    There is also an option to get maintenance at a low fixed fee per year on top of the lease rate but I didn't choose that because I don't drive that much.

    I forgot another reason why many do not choose to get the R8 over other sports cars: Insurance coverage. For some drivers, it is pretty difficult to get insurance coverage for the car because like other super sports cars, the R8 is in a category where you get an individual quote based on driver history, age, risk factor, power, repair cost and so on. It is often difficult to get insurance coverage for such a car, especially for drivers under the age of 40.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


     
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