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    997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    Sorry for the late information, I'm on a short trip to Spain with the family and didn't have a live internet connection for two days. Here we go:

    Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG, Stuttgart, is proudly presenting a new top model at the pinnacle of its broad range of production sports cars: The new Porsche 911 Turbo combines far-reaching innovations in technology with fine tuning and supreme refinement in design. All key features of this high-performance sports car have been significantly improved, the new 911 Turbo combining a substantial improvement in fuel efficiency and lower weight with more power, even higher speed, and enhanced driving dynamics.

    Particularly in terms of fuel economy and dynamic performance, the new top-of-the-range 911 from Zuffenhausen now stands out even more than before from its competitors in the market. Porsche’s new top model will be presented to the public for the first time at the Frankfurt Motor Show from 17 - 27 September.

    The heart and highlight of the seventh generation of the Turbo is the new power unit displacing 3.8 litres and delivering maximum output of 500 bhp (368 kW). The first entirely new engine in the 35-year-history of the Turbo comes with features such as Direct Fuel Injection and Porsche’s exclusive turbocharger with variable turbine geometry on a gasoline power unit. And as an option, the new six-cylinder may be combined for the first time with Porsche’s seven-speed PDK Doppelkupplungsgetriebe (Double-Clutch Gearbox).

    Models equipped with PDK are also available with a new, optional three-spoke steering wheel with gearshift paddles as an alternative to the standard steering wheel with its proven shift buttons. Fitted firmly on the steering wheel, the right paddle is for shifting up, the left paddle for shifting down. In conjunction with the optional Sport Chrono Package Turbo both the gearshift paddle and the PDK steering wheel with its shift buttons come with integrated displays for Launch Control and the Sport/Sport Plus mode, which are however designed differently on the two steering wheels.

    The combination of PDK, Direct Fuel Injection and turbocharging ensures an unprecedented standard of efficiency, agility, responsiveness and performance, the Porsche 911 Turbo reducing CO2 emissions versus its predecessor by almost 18 per cent and therefore ranking unique in its segment also in this respect. Depending on the configuration of the car, the new top model requires just 11.4 - 11.7 ltr/100 km (equal to 24.8 - 24.1 mpg imp) under the EU5 standard. And unlike most other cars in its segment, the new Turbo remains even further below the crucial level of fuel consumption for gas guzzler tax in the USA, the special tax imposed on cars with substantial fuel consumption. All this despite acceleration to 100 km/h in 3.4 seconds. Top speed, in turn, is 312 km/h or 194 mph.

    The Turbo driver of the future will also enjoy a further improvement in driving dynamics, detailed enhancement of PTM fully controlled all-wheel drive and PSM Porsche Stability Management being further supported by new PTV Porsche Torque Vectoring available as an option. This makes the car even more agile and precise in its steering for an even higher level of driving pleasure.

    Sales of the new Porsche 911 Turbo in both Coupé and Cabriolet guise are starting in Germany on 21 November 2009. The Euro base price without value-added tax and national specifications is Euro 122,400.- for the Coupé and Euro 131,800.- for the Cabriolet. The gross retail price in Germany, therefore, is Euro 145,871.- for the Coupé and Euro 157,057.- for the Cabriolet, in each case including 19% value-added tax and national specifications.
     

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    --
     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    A little personal comment: although the specs sound nice, they're far beyond of what Porsche SHOULD have offered on the facelift.

    I know that the 997 Turbo successor will be a blast, making the competition look weak (yes!) but right now, the facelift is a bit of a disappointment. In reality, it feels more like a cost reduction facelift than a performance facelift, even if the 0-100 kph acceleration sounds impressive (keep in mind that it is achieved using launch control). 2 kph more top speed? Well, not that this really counts but this is ridiculous. 0-200 kph almost unchanged? Well...another not quite so good performance figure.

    Truth is, the facelift marks the DEATH of a wonderful engine and a longtime Turbo tradition. For the first time in 911 Turbo history, Porsche changes the engine concept the 911 Turbo was always based on. The new engine may be more fuel efficient and less polluting, it may be a very modern engine but I highly doubt that it will have the same durability and bullet-proof concept the "old" engine had.

    So while some people may actually farewell the old engine and welcome the new engine, personally I rather think that this is a painful good-bye, similar to the good-bye to Porsche's independence.

    The new 997 Turbo facelift may be just a facelift to many people, maybe even to Porsche. For ME, as a 911 Turbo driver and lover, the new 997 Turbo facelift is the death sentence for the 911 Turbo tradition. What is next, a V8 in the 911 Turbo?!

    Yes, the new chassis/suspension/4WD improvements may make the new 997 Turbo facelift the hell of a track car, I bet it can be very fast on the Nordschleife and many other tracks around the worlds. Still: this doesn't justify the death of a long tradition, sorry.

    R.I.P. 911 Turbo...the old times are over. So is the 911 Turbo tradition.

    Btw: as much as I like the new backlights on the 911 Carrera, I think they kind of look odd on the 911 Turbo?!


    --
     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    RC, your comments are not very objective IMO.

    They are typical of someone who drives a 997.1 and because he doesn't intend to move to the 997.2 (and rightly, IMO if you consider the arithmetic) is trying to belittle the new model.

    Personally, I am very impressed with this model  although I was expecting a bit of visual freshening. Judging from my Carrera S (385 PS), PDK and 500 PS will be faster than a bullet and perhaps as fast as the fancied 458 Italia in real life. I'm expecting the Sport Auto NBR time to make sure that the revised PTM and new PTV do the trick.

    As regards this GT1 cult, all good things come to an end one day. There is a new engine now more powerful, less polluting and more frugal and I am sure it will never break in the hands of 99.999% of owners during road and occasional track use. Of course no owner will do the 24 hours of Le Mans twice in a row in order to find out whether the new engine is weak or less durable.

     


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    RC:

    A little personal comment: although the specs sound nice, they're far beyond of what Porsche SHOULD have offered on the facelift...

     


    Err, after reading your post I guess you meant "far below" instead of "far beyond", right? Smiley

    While I can understand the arguments from your point of view, I beg to differ.

    To me the 997.2 Turbo is the perfect evolution of the first generation, just as in case of the NA-models. You could argue here as well, that a 997.2 Carrera 2/4/S is not different enough to the 997.1, but DI-engine, better fuel efficiency, finally (!) PDK instead of the stone-old Tiptronic in combination with some minor optical changes just do it for me. In fact I think the 997.2 is a Porsche to remember as it close to perfect the way it is, no matter if we're talking about a Carrera, a GT3 or a Turbo here. And it's definitely the last "true" Porsche that was designed, styled and built under full Porsche independency.

    And if you are moaning about the death of the Turbo as we all know it, couldn't that been said when Porsche changed from one to a Biturbo-engine as well? Or when they introduced the AWD-system? 

    Of cource we all have wished for something more than only 20 hp more in case of the Turbo, but to begin with we're talking about Porsche here and after all there must be some room left for the forthcoming Turbo S. Smiley

     


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    Well, I´m surprised to read this comment from you RC. The GT1 engine had it´s glory days, and now it´s time to move on get in touch with reality and new automotive rules and forget about GT1 poetry.

    How can you speak about DFI reliabily being worse than on GT1 engine?? This is pure guessing and does give much credit to your statement. I think porsche made the right move to a more efficient way of getting power with better emissions and fuel economy, how can you argue against such achievement on todays world really amazes me Smiley.

     

    J.Seven


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    Glad I have one of the last GT1 blocks much like the last of the air cooled.  Porsche could have added DFI to the GT1 block, added in all the extra awd, suspension and chassis and made it killer!!!   You have to remember that Porsche enthusiasts are a sentimental bunch, thats why they still like the 911 with minimal changes inside and out


    --
    2007 997TT Blk/Blk 2007 X3 Sil Gry/Taupe 2002 E46 M3 Slvr/Blk (gone)

    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    My deposit is in, moving to this car from a much appreciated 2004 MY 996 turbo. Can't wait.

    Converting the Euro prices to Sterling at our current lousy exchange rate is a sobering experience but fortunately, Porsche seem to be holding the price down in the UK - for UK buyers, the message is clear,  buy sooner rather than later, their exchange rate hedging won't last forever. The option prices are frightening, easy to add 20% to the car - PDK, wheels, Sport Chrono, odd bits and pieces - really having to rein in on the cosmetics.

    If you've been to Zuffenhausen and seen the fab new engine plant, it's easy to see why they've switched to a DFI engine. Emisison and fuel economy regulations are driving it, lower production costs, no longer one-man-makes-an-engine.

    I'm actually surprised by the extent of the revisions for a facelift - new engine, new transmission, new chassis aids. All down to the Audi R8/R10 and Nissan snapping at its heels. Competition is good.

    I do think the paddle steering wheel is the pits though.

     


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

     So the base price in Germany without sales tax is 122.400 Euro while in the U.S.A. the base price without sales tax is 132.800 USD 

    At the current 1.42 exchange rate 132.800 USD equals 93.500 Euro. That is a 28.900 Euro / 41.000 USD difference !!!!

    Where am I wrong ?


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    lowdown:

     So the base price in Germany without sales tax is 122.400 Euro while in the U.S.A. the base price without sales tax is 132.800 USD 

    At the current 1.42 exchange rate 132.800 USD equals 93.500 Euro. That is a 28.900 Euro / 41.000 USD difference !!!!

    Where am I wrong ?

    You are not wrong. Smiley

    The current Euro / USD exchange rate is wrong. Smiley

     


    --

    fritz


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    Well I can agree that the jury is still out on the 9A1 block, and since I'm a beta tester, I certainly hope Porsche got it right!  However  I think the nostalgia for the split case,1980s designed, engine is misplaced. The current Turbo concept has almost no connection to the original 930 which was no AWD autobahn cruiser and often got inexperienced drivers into a lot of trouble very quickly when that single turbocharger kicked in unexpectedly.  As I'm sure many of you remember Porsche was sued in the US because the 930 was too much car for the drivers "allowed" to purchase it unaware of its dangers.  I don't think Porsche has had that problem w/ modern Turbos.  As long as the 9A1 proves itself reliable it's lineage will not impact the quality of the Turbo experience for the large majority of owners.


    --
    Carpe Diem


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    The new engine may be great - time will tell. We certainly know the last 'Metzger' engine was great. I don't know whether being a real dry sump versus an internal 'partially' dry sump engine makes any difference at all to most if not all drivers. I do believe that Porsche has cautioned that the PDK may not stand up to high bhp. Certainly, for all its dogged slowness, the old Tip (built by Mercedes?) was one strong transmission.

    There was a lawsuit brought by a woman in La Jolla, CA in the early '80s about 'unintended accleration' when she took her husband's Porsche turbo to go grocery shopping and hit another car. I thought that Porsche had won this court case, but could be wrong.


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    RSA333:

    I don't know whether being a real dry sump versus an internal 'partially' dry sump engine makes any difference at all to most if not all drivers.


     

    A proof that Porsche are confident about the lubrication of the new engine is that they allow Cup/Corsa tyres to be used on 9A1 engined cars.

    Up to 997.2 such tyres were only allowed on GT1-engined cars. The previous "internal dry sump" system didn't prevent the oil starvation potentially caused by the high g forces developed by these type of tyres.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    reginos:
    RSA333:

    I don't know whether being a real dry sump versus an internal 'partially' dry sump engine makes any difference at all to most if not all drivers.


     

    A proof that Porsche are confident about the lubrication of the new engine is that they allow Cup/Corsa tyres to be used on 9A1 engined cars.

    Up to 997.2 such tyres were only allowed on GT1-engined cars. The previous "internal dry sump" system didn't prevent the oil starvation potentially caused by the high g forces developed by these type of tyres.

     I thought Porsche allowed Cup and  Corsa tires (which are street-legal "track" tires) to be used on the M96 engines too (from original Boxster and Carrera).  I thought the restriction was only when using actual Slick Racing Tires, no?  Can Slicks be used with the 9A1, as they can on the GT3 and every 911 built before 1998?


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello.  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    Grant:
    reginos:
    RSA333:

    I don't know whether being a real dry sump versus an internal 'partially' dry sump engine makes any difference at all to most if not all drivers.


     

    A proof that Porsche are confident about the lubrication of the new engine is that they allow Cup/Corsa tyres to be used on 9A1 engined cars.

    Up to 997.2 such tyres were only allowed on GT1-engined cars. The previous "internal dry sump" system didn't prevent the oil starvation potentially caused by the high g forces developed by these type of tyres.

     I thought Porsche allowed Cup and  Corsa tires (which are street-legal "track" tires) to be used on the M96 engines too (from original Boxster and Carrera).  I thought the restriction was only when using actual Slick Racing Tires, no?  Can Slicks be used with the 9A1, as they can on the GT3 and every 911 built before 1998?

     


    No, on M96 Cup/Corsa are not allowed officially although many owners use them. Now you can order them for the 997.2 through the official channels.

    I don't know about full slicks but are you sure they are officially endorsed on the GT3 (as opposed to being used without problems)?


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    reginos:
    Grant:
    reginos:
    RSA333:

    I don't know whether being a real dry sump versus an internal 'partially' dry sump engine makes any difference at all to most if not all drivers.


     

    A proof that Porsche are confident about the lubrication of the new engine is that they allow Cup/Corsa tyres to be used on 9A1 engined cars.

    Up to 997.2 such tyres were only allowed on GT1-engined cars. The previous "internal dry sump" system didn't prevent the oil starvation potentially caused by the high g forces developed by these type of tyres.

     I thought Porsche allowed Cup and  Corsa tires (which are street-legal "track" tires) to be used on the M96 engines too (from original Boxster and Carrera).  I thought the restriction was only when using actual Slick Racing Tires, no?  Can Slicks be used with the 9A1, as they can on the GT3 and every 911 built before 1998?

     


    No, on M96 Cup/Corsa are not allowed officially although many owners use them. Now you can order them for the 997.2 through the official channels.

    I don't know about full slicks but are you sure they are officially endorsed on the GT3 (as opposed to being used without problems)?

     The GT3 Cup has a motor which is almost identical to the one in the roadcar and they race on slicks...


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello.  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    Grant:
    reginos:
    Grant:
    reginos:
    RSA333:

    I don't know whether being a real dry sump versus an internal 'partially' dry sump engine makes any difference at all to most if not all drivers.


     

    A proof that Porsche are confident about the lubrication of the new engine is that they allow Cup/Corsa tyres to be used on 9A1 engined cars.

    Up to 997.2 such tyres were only allowed on GT1-engined cars. The previous "internal dry sump" system didn't prevent the oil starvation potentially caused by the high g forces developed by these type of tyres.

     I thought Porsche allowed Cup and  Corsa tires (which are street-legal "track" tires) to be used on the M96 engines too (from original Boxster and Carrera).  I thought the restriction was only when using actual Slick Racing Tires, no?  Can Slicks be used with the 9A1, as they can on the GT3 and every 911 built before 1998?

     


    No, on M96 Cup/Corsa are not allowed officially although many owners use them. Now you can order them for the 997.2 through the official channels.

    I don't know about full slicks but are you sure they are officially endorsed on the GT3 (as opposed to being used without problems)?

     The GT3 Cup has a motor which is almost identical to the one in the roadcar and they race on slicks...

    I guess Porsche will not give this piece of information about the new engine as it is intended for racing and thus slicks.

    The only sure thing is that with the new engine owners can go form road tyres to track tyres without any lubrication issues.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    RC:

    A little personal comment: although the specs sound nice, they're far beyond of what Porsche SHOULD have offered on the facelift.

    I know that the 997 Turbo successor will be a blast, making the competition look weak (yes!) but right now, the facelift is a bit of a disappointment. In reality, it feels more like a cost reduction facelift than a performance facelift, even if the 0-100 kph acceleration sounds impressive (keep in mind that it is achieved using launch control). 2 kph more top speed? Well, not that this really counts but this is ridiculous. 0-200 kph almost unchanged? Well...another not quite so good performance figure.

    Truth is, the facelift marks the DEATH of a wonderful engine and a longtime Turbo tradition. For the first time in 911 Turbo history, Porsche changes the engine concept the 911 Turbo was always based on. The new engine may be more fuel efficient and less polluting, it may be a very modern engine but I highly doubt that it will have the same durability and bullet-proof concept the "old" engine had.

    So while some people may actually farewell the old engine and welcome the new engine, personally I rather think that this is a painful good-bye, similar to the good-bye to Porsche's independence.

    The new 997 Turbo facelift may be just a facelift to many people, maybe even to Porsche. For ME, as a 911 Turbo driver and lover, the new 997 Turbo facelift is the death sentence for the 911 Turbo tradition. What is next, a V8 in the 911 Turbo?!

    Yes, the new chassis/suspension/4WD improvements may make the new 997 Turbo facelift the hell of a track car, I bet it can be very fast on the Nordschleife and many other tracks around the worlds. Still: this doesn't justify the death of a long tradition, sorry.

    R.I.P. 911 Turbo...the old times are over. So is the 911 Turbo tradition.

    Btw: as much as I like the new backlights on the 911 Carrera, I think they kind of look odd on the 911 Turbo?!

     

     

    VERY WELL SAID.

    Ditto!

    The more Porsche brings up the new Turbo's C02 footprint the less I'm interested in the car.  Give me MORE performance instead of selling a cheaper made, "cost reduction"  engine that delivers greater profits delivered to Porsche, one that's Al Gore approved. Sucks where this whole thing is going. The end of an era.  

    btw: There's been PLENTY of engines that turned out to be the very best, classic engines now that at the time were replaced by ones that were supposedly more advanced. I have a feeling this is one of those times.
    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    Just my 2 cents....but what a different response between the 997.2 Turbo intro and the Ferrari 458 Italia.  Granted two different cars, and the respective forums may be populated by only the true enthusiasts, but still two auto makers, only one of which seems to have gotten it right. Kinda glad I cancelled my deposit on a 997.2 Turbo in favor of Ferrari.


    --

    07 F430 F1 Spider 06 C2SCab,Triple Black X51 (gone but not forgotten)

    08 Lexus ISF Ultrasonic Blue

    08 LR2


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    So, what should Porsche have done?


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    RAKLAW:

    Just my 2 cents....but what a different response between the 997.2 Turbo intro and the Ferrari 458 Italia.  Granted two different cars, and the respective forums may be populated by only the true enthusiasts, but still two auto makers, only one of which seems to have gotten it right. Kinda glad I cancelled my deposit on a 997.2 Turbo in favor of Ferrari.

     

    Somewhat unfair, one is a completely new model, the other a facelift, & hardly a positive one but there's no doubt you made the absolute right decision there.  Porsche should do as Ferrari & eliminate these face-lifts.........Guess they don't have a choice, otherwise they'd have problems selling the same model. If they could sell in the same #'s there's no way they'd change a thing, it's all about the $$$$$ for Porsche. ie) new cheaper block. 

    Can you imagine taking delivery of a 997.2 and THEN seeing the 458.  Smiley


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    what is the price differential between a 997.2 TT and the 458?


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    ^ Gotta be $75k+, I'd think...


    --
    05' C4S

    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    Obviously there is a $$$ difference, though info on the 458 is not available as of yet, and Porsche has a way of really nicking you on the "needed" option list.  One example CCB (ceramics were stnd on the 08 430) But my point was not price driven, rather to comment on the respective response from the various on line forums (FCHAT vs. Rennteam & Rennlist) on the MY 2010 product.


    --

    07 F430 F1 Spider 06 C2SCab,Triple Black X51 (gone but not forgotten)

    08 Lexus ISF Ultrasonic Blue

    08 LR2


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    JP66:

    ^ Gotta be $75k+, I'd think...

    Only guessing for fun, but it will be A LOT more than 75. In the US, the Ferrari might be around 250 base, 300 with option. The Turbo would be what, 150 for normal people, 175 for the nutty lucky people (hi Gregg Smiley)? So twice as much might be a close enough description.

    Frankly I do not think it's logical to compare the Turbo and a Ferrari as far as choice of car. The HUGE difference in price aside, one is a stunningly beautiful exotic, a weekend car with unique driving experience, the other a daily driver. The direct competitor for the Ferrari is either Lamborghini LP-560 or GT2, not Turbo. (Again, I encourage anyone to test drive the Lambo; you are going to be in for a pleasant surprise. The engine is an absolute gem and I would think a better choice than F car's V8 at least for street driving.)

    What does make the Turbo unique is that as far as performance, at least for the current generation, much less money brings you a car that yields practically nothing to any car out there, for street driving, where the majority of us spend 90% plus of the time. It has no competitor as a daily driver  and could be modded, at a small price to the wallet and comfort, to be as furious as a torpedo.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    cannga:

    Frankly I do not think it's logical to compare the Turbo and a Ferrari as far as choice of car. The HUGE difference in price aside, one is a stunningly beautiful exotic, a weekend car with unique driving experience, the other a daily driver. The direct competitor for the Ferrari is either Lamborghini LP-560 or GT2, not Turbo. (Again, I encourage anyone to test drive the Lambo; you are going to be in for a pleasant surprise. The engine is an absolute gem and I would think a better choice than F car's V8 at least for street driving.)

    What does make the Turbo unique is that as far as performance, at least for the current generation, much less money brings you a car that yields practically nothing to any car out there, for street driving, where the majority of us spend 90% plus of the time. It has no competitor as a daily driver  and could be modded, at a small price to the wallet and comfort, to be as furious as a torpedo.

    Regards,
    Can

    Very correct comments Smiley

    Another dimension to this eternal argument is that the assumption that everybody would wish to own a Ferrari had this person been able to afford, is not always true.

    There are lots of affluent car lovers in the world who just don't like Ferrari/Lamborghini type of cars and are happier with other fast cars. So Ferrari is not on everybody's dream list contrary to what many Ferrari fans assume.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    reginos:
    cannga:

    Frankly I do not think it's logical to compare the Turbo and a Ferrari as far as choice of car. The HUGE difference in price aside, one is a stunningly beautiful exotic, a weekend car with unique driving experience, the other a daily driver. The direct competitor for the Ferrari is either Lamborghini LP-560 or GT2, not Turbo. (Again, I encourage anyone to test drive the Lambo; you are going to be in for a pleasant surprise. The engine is an absolute gem and I would think a better choice than F car's V8 at least for street driving.)

    What does make the Turbo unique is that as far as performance, at least for the current generation, much less money brings you a car that yields practically nothing to any car out there, for street driving, where the majority of us spend 90% plus of the time. It has no competitor as a daily driver  and could be modded, at a small price to the wallet and comfort, to be as furious as a torpedo.

    Regards,
    Can

    Very correct comments Smiley

    Another dimension to this eternal argument is that the assumption that everybody would wish to own a Ferrari had this person been able to afford, is not always true.

    There are lots of affluent car lovers in the world who just don't like Ferrari/Lamborghini type of cars and are happier with other fast cars. So Ferrari is not on everybody's dream list contrary to what many Ferrari fans assume.

     

    On many places in Europe, the Lambo and Ferrari are seen as the ultimate PIMP cars, I even have some German friends who like Ferrari and Lambo but don´t buy them due to the PIMP image they got.

    Friend of mine who got a Lambo, told me several times people do think his a futebol player when his driving his Gallardo, round here, many futebol players are driving exotic cars.

    Back to the business, I do think the new Ferrari Italia is on another league compared to Turbo, it´s a different car, for different clients. Both are great on their own ways, but the Ferrari is indeed the dream car between the two.
     

     


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    J.Seven:
    reginos:
    cannga:

    Frankly I do not think it's logical to compare the Turbo and a Ferrari as far as choice of car. The HUGE difference in price aside, one is a stunningly beautiful exotic, a weekend car with unique driving experience, the other a daily driver. The direct competitor for the Ferrari is either Lamborghini LP-560 or GT2, not Turbo. (Again, I encourage anyone to test drive the Lambo; you are going to be in for a pleasant surprise. The engine is an absolute gem and I would think a better choice than F car's V8 at least for street driving.)

    What does make the Turbo unique is that as far as performance, at least for the current generation, much less money brings you a car that yields practically nothing to any car out there, for street driving, where the majority of us spend 90% plus of the time. It has no competitor as a daily driver  and could be modded, at a small price to the wallet and comfort, to be as furious as a torpedo.

    Regards,
    Can

    Very correct comments Smiley

    Another dimension to this eternal argument is that the assumption that everybody would wish to own a Ferrari had this person been able to afford, is not always true.

    There are lots of affluent car lovers in the world who just don't like Ferrari/Lamborghini type of cars and are happier with other fast cars. So Ferrari is not on everybody's dream list contrary to what many Ferrari fans assume.

     

    On many places in Europe, the Lambo and Ferrari are seen as the ultimate PIMP cars, I even have some German friends who like Ferrari and Lambo but don´t buy them due to the PIMP image they got.

    Friend of mine who got a Lambo, told me several times people do think his a futebol player when his driving his Gallardo, round here, many futebol players are driving exotic cars.

    Back to the business, I do think the new Ferrari Italia is on another league compared to Turbo, it´s a different car, for different clients. Both are great on their own ways, but the Ferrari is indeed the dream car between the two.
      

    Very true about the Ferrari clientele in some countries in Europe at least. When a friend who is a businessman picked up his F430 in the UK, the salesman told him that he was the first "normal" person he delivered a car to. Normal being outside the football, celebrity, sex business and glamour set.

    I agree that the Ferrari is a dream car to some. But "dreaming" also has some negative connotations in that it's not the real world. Personally, I cannot afford a brand new Ferrari but for a price similar to a new Porsche I could have imported a used F430 from the UK (same side steering, very favourable Pound/Euro exchange rate). But I'd never choose a Ferrari over a Porsche so it's not a dream for me. I might have owned one if I had a garage full of cars like some members here.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    STRADALE:

    Porsche should do as Ferrari & eliminate these face-lifts.........Guess they don't have a choice, otherwise they'd have problems selling the same model. If they could sell in the same #'s there's no way they'd change a thing, it's all about the $$$$$ for Porsche. ie) new cheaper block. 

    Can you imagine taking delivery of a 997.2 and THEN seeing the 458.  

     

    Porsche didn´t launch any facelifts until the advent of the 986/996 models, all previous models only received minor revisions. The modifications on the 944 even resulted in a re-named model, the 968. After all, it´s not only the case with Porsche but even more so with Mercedes.

    Turbo and 458 are miles away in base price so that feeling should be relieved as soon as you look at your bank account. Smiley


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    Ferdie:
    STRADALE:

    Porsche should do as Ferrari & eliminate these face-lifts.........Guess they don't have a choice, otherwise they'd have problems selling the same model. If they could sell in the same #'s there's no way they'd change a thing, it's all about the $$$$$ for Porsche. ie) new cheaper block. 

    Can you imagine taking delivery of a 997.2 and THEN seeing the 458.  

     

    Porsche didn´t launch any facelifts until the advent of the 986/996 models, all previous models only received minor revisions. The modifications on the 944 even resulted in a re-named model, the 968. After all, it´s not only the case with Porsche but even more so with Mercedes.

    Turbo and 458 are miles away in base price so that feeling should be relieved as soon as you look at your bank account. Smiley

    From 1974 to 1990 (pre-964) Porsche was actually selling the same model with a series of various mechanical refinements. However, strictly speaking the 964 and the 993 could qualify as facelifts of the original car.

     


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    reginos:

    From 1974 to 1990 (pre-964) Porsche was actually selling the same model with a series of various mechanical refinements. However, strictly speaking the 964 and the 993 could qualify as facelifts of the original car.

     

    I understand your thinking but I primarily referred to stylistical changes that do not serve a certain purpose, the initial 911 received subtle changes and alterations on the exterior such as different bumpers and flared fenders (depending on model). However these also served a technical purpose and were small adaptions to the appropriate Zeitgeist.

    The 993, for example, only received rectangular exhaust tips with the introduction of the 285hp engine. That is different to today, where product cycles follow Loewy´s idea to make the old product look outdated.

    One can debate whether a car based on the same chassis and engine block for decades is subject for model changes or only facelift! Smiley


     
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