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    Re: Radical SR3 Turbo

    I am just wondering if the Radical could be registered in Germany. From what I've heard the kit car scene in GB and the use of various massively tuned engine (Rover K-series etc.) enable it to be registered in this country and not in the rest of Europe. Could there be some back doors?

    I am wondering what tires the Radical used. This car is, well... radical! A stripped-out CGT without luxury items, lowered suspension and maybe a little more hp should easily be able to top the Radical's performance on the Ring.

    Hey, the CGT is derived from a Le Mans car! It would be ridiculous if a stripped-out kit car could drive circles around it! Well, it does...

    Re: Radical SR3 Turbo

    Can the Radical be classified as 'production car'?

    Re: Radical SR3 Turbo

    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Can the Radical be classified as 'production car'?



    They produce over 150 cars per year according the the website. Then we must consider how many are registered for road use or have the potential to be road cars (some are built only for racing). From this perspective, I must think that the answer is no. Where do you draw the line? On the other hand, I'm not sure you can buy this car in kit form, and thus it is a production car.

    If Porsche cannot take 500 .lbs or more off the CGT, then something is wrong! Just a guess.

    Re: Radical SR3 Turbo

    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Can the Radical be classified as 'production car'?



    How do you define it and what is the legal definition? 50? 100? 500? 1500 as is the case with the GT?

    Re: Radical SR3 Turbo

    Ferrari are only making 300 Enzo's, yet we consider it a production car if it beat the ring record. Why shouldn't the Radical be?

    The only unfairness I see is that Radical makes no compromise for confort, practicality, durability of the engine, versatility, etc. compared to the "rest" hence its a "real" street legal race car, much more radical than any CGT or Enzo can ever be. Hence its tremendous advantage. So the Radical deserves to be recognised as the ring record holder but this does not draw merit to CGTs lap time. When comparing cars at the ring, the Radical must be "mentally" set aside when comparing it. And the CGT is the fastest of the non-Radical production cars in the ring.


    BTW, if anyone thinks a stripped and prepped CGT can beat a Radical Turbo, lets not forget that the 7:19 record of the Radical was done in only a one flying lap! the driver Phil Bennet said that if he were allowed to practice a bit that day, he would of gone under 7min!

    Re: Radical SR3 Turbo

    Carlos,

    indeed I think so. Do you remember the fastest lap ever driven on the Ring? It was way below 7 seconds, about two decades ago and with a similiarly big vehicle - the Porsche Group-C racer, also competing in LeMans.

    The only difference between the 956/062 and CGT is that the first one had a turbocharged engine - on the other hand I bet that the V10 could produce 800 hp in race trim. If the CGT would be similiarly radical as the, ...haha, Radical it would weight 500 kg less!

    The question that rouses in myself is if the CGT should've better become more extreme and orientated towards the real Le Mans car... at least in one variant!
    Don't consider durability as an issue - the Group-C cars lasted in several 24hour-races!

    I am provocative now but maybe the CGT's laptime should've been even more astohishing! In the past every restriction that was put on in racing was evened out by better tires, suspension, aerodynamics. You name it, F1, GT-racing, WRC...
    If the 962 was able to set a record of almost 6:30 min. back at that time, a race-prep CGT, even on road-legal tires, should be able to greet the 7 min. mark.
    I am fully aware that we are talking about times just a fraction of drivers will ever be able to lap. Still worth a thought...
    To me it says something about the CGT's performance envelope - I could imagine people would sacrifice its tricky handling if they could know about its astonishing performance, way beyond everything else! Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be that far ahead...

    Greetings!

    Re: Radical SR3 Turbo

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    indeed I think so. Do you remember the fastest lap ever driven on the Ring? It was way below 7 seconds, about two decades ago and with a similiarly big vehicle - the Porsche Group-C racer, also competing in LeMans.



    Ferdie,

    If you are talking about the famous record 6:11 lap time Stephan Bellof set in 1983 in the 956, then you can forget about using it as a guide. Not only as it done with a full race car with qualifying slicks, but more importantly, it wasn't a full nurburgring lap as many people think. During that time, the track was being remodeled into the new nurburgring and hence a part was cut off, it was a full 2km shorter than a full lap. Hence Derek Bell also went sub 7min at the same time (6:41). Only an F1 recorded an under 7min lap in 1971.


    Quote:

    The only difference between the 956/062 and CGT is that the first one had a turbocharged engine - on the other hand I bet that the V10 could produce 800 hp in race trim. If the CGT would be similiarly radical as the, ...haha, Radical it would weight 500 kg less!



    I disagree, the 956/962 hasve NOTHING in common with the CGT, from the tubular chasis to the extreme aerodinamics, from the 80's Group C full race car specs to the just over 800kg curb weight. The engine is the least of the differences. The problem with the CGT is not the difference in HP (the CGT has more than enough that it can apply with street tires to the ground and use effectively), its that the CGT was a streetcar in all its intention and solutions applied from the start (except the engine was initially intended for Le Mans) and was so developed. They are even more different that comparing a GT3 with the GT3RSR racecar. They are just completely different beasts for different purposes IMO.

    If they made the CGT radical enough to go under 7min in todays nurburgring, then it wouldn't be a CGT nor street legal anymore I wouldn't see a point to the CGT trying to compete with a Radical in the ring, consider it a different class on its own and the CGT is a different car (a real car) that offers so much more

    Re: Radical SR3 Turbo

    Carlos, you're right about Bellof's laptime but his average speed was still significantly faster than Lauda's when he went sub-seven minutes! So I assume Bellof would've covered the identical lap in far less than 7 minutes also.
    But:
    the lap you mentioned seemed to be incl. the Südschleife, ending up at about 22 km! The current Nordschleife-/GP-combo is about 25 km. The 20 km Bellof covered are the ones you drive on the Nürburgring alone, same that von Saurma and Bennett covered! So 6:11 are indeed absolutely valuable.

    Anyways, the point I tried to make is to compare 956/962 with the CGT:
    the old racecar was 700 kgs lighter, despite being a coupe and not a convertible
    tires developed significantly over the past, hence my comparison before. The current Gt-cars are faster than the old ones despite the power deficit. What I am trying to say is that the CGT in a racecar configuration (e.g. ALMS) would be significantly faster than the serial version. That car would be in line with the Radical in terms of uncompromising layout, aerodynamics etc. You see what I am aiming at?
    In the end what would such a car be capable of, if driving the Nordschleife? I bet if would be ahead of the Radical!

    All I am trying to say is that the Radical and the CGT are heading in different directions and are hard to compare, just if anybody wonders why such a cheap sportscar can be faster!
    Still I stick to my opinion that the CGT should be a little bit faster - or simply more uncompromising! What do you think?

    Re: Radical SR3 Turbo

    Additional sidenote:

    MB had to put additional 600 kgs in the car when they converted the CLK-LM from a racing into a roadcar - in case anybody is wondering about the weight difference!

    Greetings!

    Re: Radical SR3 Turbo

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:What I am trying to say is that the CGT in a racecar configuration (e.g. ALMS) would be significantly faster than the serial version. That car would be in line with the Radical in terms of uncompromising layout, aerodynamics etc. You see what I am aiming at?
    In the end what would such a car be capable of, if driving the Nordschleife? I bet if would be ahead of the Radical!



    I see were you are getting at now Ferdie, and I agree with you completely then. A LeMans type racecar version of the CGT would definately be faster than the Radical, heck, the 2 decades old 956 has got to be faster than the Radical IMO. But would not be a street legal CGT though in order to do that though, which is my point.

    Quote:
    All I am trying to say is that the Radical and the CGT are heading in different directions and are hard to compare, just if anybody wonders why such a cheap sportscar can be faster!



    Thats why I'm trying to say too, though I admire and recognise the Radicals track capabilities, I don't like comparisons of the Radical with cars such as the CGT.

    But if they make the CGT more umcompromising for even greater performance that only a few can extract fully how many cancellations of the CGT would we have then? I think they should rather work on a sequential tranny option and a height adjustable suspension first in order to avoid all those cancellations since those that do end taking delivery shouldn't have to take a hit in resale after paying so much for a car

    Re: Radical SR3 Turbo

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    ...I see were you are getting at now Ferdie, and I agree with you completely then. A LeMans type racecar version of the CGT would definately be faster than the Radical, heck, the 2 decades old 956 has got to be faster than the Radical IMO. But would not be a street legal CGT though in order to do that though, which is my point.
    ...But if they make the CGT more umcompromising for even greater performance that only a few can extract fully how many cancellations of the CGT would we have then? I think they should rather work on a sequential tranny option and a height adjustable suspension first in order to avoid all those cancellations since those that do end taking delivery shouldn't have to take a hit in resale after paying so much for a car



    The 962 was obviously much faster than the Radical. A track-orientated CGT for longdistance races should not be any slower than its predecessor twenty years ago. If we consider this, the Radical's time remains impressive but leaves a question mark on the current CGT's performance.

    If you remember that the so-far trackrecord on the Nürburgring was done by the Gemballa-Porsche in a similiar time as the CGT, on 996 basis and with slightly more hp!

    Buenas tardes, Carlos!

    Re: Radical SR3 Turbo

    yeah but the CGT would have to reworked and rebuild form the groud up to become a 962 modern day succesor though, it wouldn't have any relation to the CGT we know today. Was the GTR from Gemballa that did the 7:32 done with street tires and was it street legal?

    Buenas tardes

    Re: Radical SR3 Turbo

    I believe that the basic monocoque structure and the patented connection of chassis and engine frame would be a great basis to start from!

    Yes, the Gemballa had the title of the fastest street-legal car - on street tires. If I remember correctly it was equipped with Yokohama tires and various spectators stated how unbelievable it looked. Wolfgang Kaufmann was the driver and none of the tires were on their initial position after the lap - each one turned on the rim!
    The tires seemed to be the weakest part of the car.

    Re: Radical SR3 Turbo

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    The tires seemed to be the weakest part of the car.



    So just imagine what a headache the tires must be for the Bugatti Veyron.

    Re: Radical SR3 Turbo

    Yes, the Gemballa had the title of the fastest street-legal car - on street tires. If I remember correctly it was equipped with Yokohama tires and various spectators stated how unbelievable it looked. Wolfgang Kaufmann was the driver and none of the tires were on their initial position after the lap - each one turned on the rim!
    The tires seemed to be the weakest part of the car.


    Does anyone have video of this Run??

     
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