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    Panamera - most expensive development in Porsche history?

    Apparently Panamera development costed Porsche around 1 Billion EUR, meaning around 1.25 Billion USD. This seems to be the highest development cost for a single model in Porsche history. The synergy effect with VW/Audi is very little with the current Panamera models, it may however increase over the next couple of years, for example with the hybrid version.

    Right now, the Panamera is 100% Porsche, even if the bodyshell is made at VW. 

    The high development cost could actually indicate a very good product, I wish Porsche would have talked a bit more to potential customers about the exterior design. 


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

    Re: Panamera - most expensive development in Porsche history?

    Do you believe that the Panamera R&D has cost more than the 928 if inflation is taken into account? It seems that Porsche was in a better financial position to invest this level of capital than with the 928 in the 1970s.
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    Carpe Diem

    Re: Panamera - most expensive development in Porsche history?

    Bare in mind that lots of technologies and engineering inventions that were conceived during the R&D period for the Panamera will aid in developing future Porsche cars. 

    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    Emperor:
    Bare in mind that lots of technologies and engineering inventions that were conceived during the R&D period for the Panamera will aid in developing future Porsche cars. 

    Correct. Furthermore, Porsche plans to drastically reduce R&D cost under the "magic" 10% margin. With the Panamera development, it was at a whopping 15% level, pretty high for a single new development.

    The next model to profit from Panamera R&D should be the next generation Cayenne and maybe that infamous rumored Panamera Coupe. To some extent, the 911 could profit too but rather in the electronics department than in engine/chassis development.

    The high development cost proves to me that the Panamera could be a pretty good product if the money was used wisely. I just wish Porsche would have invested a bit more time and asked for opinions from potential customers regarding the Panamera design. I still can't get used to that rear but the worst part is actually the sideline view. Horrible.

    It reminds me of my love-hate relationship to the Cayenne and I'm not sure I want to go through that again.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    The Cayenne GTS is a really good looking SUV.  Maybe the Panerama will evolve somehow. 
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    Im The Panda Man!

    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    PandaMan:
    The Cayenne GTS is a really good looking SUV.  Maybe the Panerama will evolve somehow. 
    --
    Im The Panda Man!

    The Cayenne GTS is already second generation. I wouldn't want to spend 130000 EUR for a Cayenne Turbo only to find out two years later that the design has completely changed.

    Just imagine what would happen to 1st gen Panamera if Porsche decides to change the rear design, it would be a desaster for resale value.

            


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    Let's hope all that dough shows in the performance of the car. It has to excel if they want to sell in the current situation.

    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    SciFrog:
    Let's hope all that dough shows in the performance of the car. It has to excel if they want to sell in the current situation.

    Very true, I'm already curious if all that rumored hype about the track performance (not that it really matters for a limousine) is true or not. I also hope that at least the Panamera Turbo will have a slightly better performance than the S 63 AMG. Otherwise, the Panamera will not succeed, especially in the current financial crisis situation.

    I looked up a BMW 750i (new F01 model) just for fun and for 100000 EUR, incl. 19% VAT and a small rebate from the dealer, I get a very well equipped limousine with lots of interesting technology. The Panamera needs to set a new bar regarding limousine performance & quality, otherwise it will fail under the current market circumstances. 

            


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    The Panamera will be in a different class of limousine compared to the S-klasse and the 7 series.

    The 7-series has been trying for some 20 years now, unsuccessfully, to surpass the Mercedes S-Klasse. From what I've been reading even the brand new 7 is still second best to the "older" S.

    So what does the 750 have to do with the Porsche? Let BMW tackle their main rivals first (Mercedes and Audi) before aspiring to the sports-limousine class.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    "The Cayenne GTS is already second generation. I wouldn't want to spend 130000 EUR for a Cayenne Turbo only to find out two years later that the design has completely changed."--RC.

    Buying a later generation model is always tricky from a depreciation standpoint, as an upcoming model change could affect its residual value.  But there are definitely advantages to the later model--bugs have been worked out, improvements have been made in the series, tuners have improved their products, and a buyer is getting the best of all the developments over the series years.  ( I think Porsche's evolutionary change approach also helps, as the buyer knows that his late series choice is not going to be greatly outdated by a brand new radically changed model.  Also, late model buyers can negotiate good discounts, as RC did on his Cayenne Turbo S.  Finally, it in the end comes down to the buyer's needs and circumstances at the time, and decisions are made on emotion and the "irresistible impulse" to buy. 


    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    reginos:

    The Panamera will be in a different class of limousine compared to the S-klasse and the 7 series.

    The 7-series has been trying for some 20 years now, unsuccessfully, to surpass the Mercedes S-Klasse. From what I've been reading even the brand new 7 is still second best to the "older" S.

    So what does the 750 have to do with the Porsche? Let BMW tackle their main rivals first (Mercedes and Audi) before aspiring to the sports-limousine class.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

     In Germany, the mother country of Audi, BMW and Mercedes, the clocks are "ticking" a little bit different. Germans usually buy the 7 series or Audi A8 while the S-class is more preferred by older people and/or foreigners/people of foreign descent who live/work here.

    If Porsche really wants to compete against the Mercedes S-class, the target audience will be the wrong one. I can see my 84 year old dad in a Mercedes S class but definetely not in a Panamera. The sportiest big limousines are considered to be the 7 series and the Audi A8/S8, it is about image and perception. You can't see young business people over here in a Mercedes S-class, this would be completely ridiculous.

    I know that Porsche used the Mercedes S-class for comparison during Panamera development but they did the same with the Audi A8 and BMW 7 series.

    If the Panamera gets the same perception as the Mercedes S-class does, Porsche will be doomed with the Panamera, even if only in Germany. Don't forget that Germany is still a very important market for Porsche, especially in the business car domain.     

    Regarding my Cayenne GTS 2nd gen comment, I'm not sure you got my point. The point was that the Cayenne has improved a lot with the 2nd generation, especially design-wise. I wouldn't want first Panamera buyers to get the surprise of their lives if Porsche would decide to change the Panamera design after 2 years or so. It would kill resale value, simply because the rear and especially the sideline of the Panamera are far from being perfect. 


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    I believe, the Panamera will be distanced from S class and 7 series in the same way that a Carrera or Turbo is far from an SL or a 650 in appeal. I am not saying better or worse but in a different segment playing to different audience.

    As regards the S class you must be right because in Germany I noticed myself that you don't see as many relative to the size of the country and the economic ability of people. You can see many more even in less economically developed countries where every affluent businessman aspires to the S class. Germans consider the 7 and the A8, more sexy perhaps. I like the Audi concept myself.

    The Cayenne.2 is much improved in engineering and detail-design, but I don't think the change is such as to make Cayenne.1 haters change their mind about it. Similarly, the Panamera.2 when it comes, it will be along the same lines and it will not make people who don't like it now, love it then.

    Porsches have always been an acquired taste. Imagine how strange the 911 looked when it came out in 1963. Or the 924, 928, 959 etc. Shapes that looked controversial and different to most people at the time but loved by others then and now after all these years.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    Porsche will never compete with the likes of Mercedes on the technology front!

    The Fiat Panda had an MP3 input jack before the Porsche 911 Turbo did! smiley00076.gif

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    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    We must distinguish between automotive technology and gadgetry, although I know that infotainment is also very important in premium cars.

    However, with the VW/Audi tie-up, Porsche will never fall behind in any area from now on.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    VW/Audi are years behind Mercedes on automotive and infotainment technology.

    eg. this was announced yesterday: http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/Mercedes-Benz-Concepts/236435/

    Porsche's only advantage will be going fast around corners, something that is not very 'limousine' like.



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    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    reginos:


    Porsches have always been an acquired taste. Imagine how strange the 911 looked when it came out in 1963. Or the 924, 928, 959 etc. Shapes that looked controversial and different to most people at the time but loved by others then and now after all these years.


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    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    I don't know, I actually liked the 928 and 959 a lot, the 993 for example was everybody's darling in the sportscar world, very nice design. Unfortunately the technology behind it wasn't that nice and too expensive to produce, this is why Porsche got in trouble.

    The Cayenne succeeded because it was pretty unique in the SUV world and I'm talking of course about the Cayenne Turbo. Haven't you noticed how many Cayenne V6/S owners put the Turbo badge on it, changed the colour of their brake calipers, etc. to give outside people the impression they're driving the Turbo? Why? Because the Cayenne Turbo was the incarnation of the sporty monster SUV many people have dreamt about in the past, especially in the US. Without the Turbo, the V6 and S wouldn't have sold that great.

    The Panamera is in a completely different situation. The competition is tough in the limousine segment, there is the Mercedes S-class, the BMW 7series, the Audi A8/S8, the Maserati Quattroporte, etc....lots of good limousines for every taste. I just can't see how Porsche wants to raise the bar or to penetrate this segment with the Panamera.

    Right now, there isn't a good time for high priced executive limousines, so if Porsche wants to have success with the Panamera, they have two choices only in my opinion: they could delay the Panamera introduction by a year or so OR they could offer special business lease models to make the Panamera attractive to business owners.

    To be honest: I doubt that Porsche will do either of both, so the Panamera may not sell too well in the first year, most cars will very likely go to dealers only. This may actually be a good chance for buyers to make a good Panamera deal but money will be tight next year and like I said before, the competition is tough. 

            


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    Alex_997TT:

    VW/Audi are years behind Mercedes on automotive and infotainment technology.

    eg. this was announced yesterday: http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/Mercedes-Benz-Concepts/236435/

    Porsche's only advantage will be going fast around corners, something that is not very 'limousine' like.



    --

    Click for bigger picture!

    I have to disappoint you. The split screen technology may be new from an ergonomics point of view but BMW uses a similar technology in their new 7 series (F01) to display different input (for example navigation on one side and the night vision camera on the other side).

    May I also remind you that Audi and Volkswagen introduced HDD operated nav and entertainment systems while Mercedes didn't have any similar system by that time?

    I won't even start to talk about iPod integration, Audi/VW were also faster as far as I remember.

    Regarding entertainment/automotive systems, Audi/Volkswagen but also BMW are very strong. Porsche plans to work together with Audi/VW in the future to use the same electronics basis for all their products. Makes sense. The best product synergy is the one which can't be seen directly.  

            


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    Alex_997TT:

    Porsche will never compete with the likes of Mercedes on the technology front!

    here is the latest, amazing tech is happening nowmercedesbenz-splitview-technology1.jpg


    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    reginos:

    Porsches have always been an acquired taste. Imagine how strange the 911 looked when it came out in 1963. Or the 924, 928, 959 etc. Shapes that looked controversial and different to most people at the time but loved by others then and now after all these years.

    Acquired taste argument doesn't work anywhere. Something is either good or not good. Panamera is ugly and will never become un-ugly until redesigned, the 928 is a stunning automobile because it is so low, wide, and beautifully curved. 959 is great front and lousy rear. 924 is entirely forgetable. Just because the name porsche is put on something does not make it good. No one bats 1000.


    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    racerx:
    reginos:

     

    Porsches have always been an acquired taste. Imagine how strange the 911 looked when it came out in 1963. Or the 924, 928, 959 etc. Shapes that looked controversial and different to most people at the time but loved by others then and now after all these years.

    Acquired taste argument doesn't work anywhere. Something is either good or not good. Panamera is ugly and will never become un-ugly until redesigned, the 928 is a stunning automobile because it is so low, wide, and beautifully curved. 959 is great front and lousy rear. 924 is entirely forgetable. Just because the name porsche is put on something does not make it good. No one bats 1000.

     

    Exactly my point!

    All these three Porsche cars were not beautiful in the traditional sense but still made a big impression at their time and are still considered defining automobiles for thousands of people. In the case of the 928 the MY1978 original was a very eccentric car at the time and not visually liked by the many. Later incarnations of the model normalised the shape and the design details and it appealed to more people.

    Same scenarios with the 996/997, the Cayenne and now the Panamera.

            


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    RC:

    Right now, there isn't a good time for high priced executive limousines, so if Porsche wants to have success with the Panamera, they have two choices only in my opinion: they could delay the Panamera introduction by a year or so OR they could offer special business lease models to make the Panamera attractive to business owners.

          

     I don't think that delaying the car is a viable option, After they've shown the pictures so early, it will look old if it is not launched in the next 6 months or so, IMO.

    If they can make a good profit with 20,000 units p.a. I don't think they will have a problem shifting these numbers. S-class sells some 85,000 units by comparison.

    Porsche might need to bring the diesel model(s) forward a bit, however.

    For God's sake there is crisis, but not everybody will lose his job or get poor. There are lots of recession-proof people in the world!

     


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    racerx:
    Alex_997TT:

    Porsche will never compete with the likes of Mercedes on the technology front!

     

    here is the latest, amazing tech is happening nowmercedesbenz-splitview-technology1.jpg


            This is amazing indeed. However.... the most important thing is how a car "feels". This is the most important factor to differentiate a Porsche from competing products Smiley Let's hope for the best Smiley


    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    racerx:
    Alex_997TT:

    Porsche will never compete with the likes of Mercedes on the technology front!

    here is the latest, amazing tech is happening now

    Have you seen the current(!) BMW 7series (F01) screen? The split screen looks amazing on the ad picture from Mercedes but in reality, it could create various problems, especially depending on lighting conditions and on size/height of driver/passengers.

    I learned one thing regarding cars and ads: never trust them before you own one or before you drove one at least for a couple of days. Even Porsche tends to exaggerate in their ads. I won't forget the ads for the PCM system when it was introduced with the 996. I got one of the first 996 worldwide and this car really sucked bigtime. The PCM system had so many flaws by that time, I was mad as hell, especially since I'm a gadget lover and love new technology. There was nothing new about it, it worked horrible.

    I don't know if you every owned a Mercedes, I did, the E55 AMG. The COMAND was nice but it didn't offer anything special Audi/VW didn't offer. After Audi/VW started to use a HDD and after they offered iPod connections and the possibility to connect memory cards to the system, Mercedes didn't have anything similar at that time. The only thing nice was the DVD playing capability.

    So as much as you guys try to make Mercedes look "innovative" from an electronics point of view, Mercedes isn't.

    Another problem with advanced electronics is the fact that if introduced fast, it can create several problems. Look at BMW: they use so much electronics in their cars but they're far from being reliable. My wife's BMW M3 DKG just went to the dealership because of a complete electronics failure(ABS/DSC/whatever). A lot of fun, especially when there is a lot of snow on the street. Smiley

    Fact is also that a lot of car manufacturers started to outsource electronics development, especially in the entertainment/navigation domain. So most of the stuff is actually coming from well known companies like Bosch, Delphi, Omron, etc., even if it is called different.

    We could start a whole new thread about automotive electronics/entertainment systems but I guess we would end up into the same dumb discussions PC and MAC users have from time to time. I use both and this is the only way to learn about possible flaws or advantages. The same is valid with cars.

    I think it is amazing that Porsche invested over one billion Euro into one single new model, especially since they already had the basis and engines from the Cayenne development. This can mean only one thing: Porsche is very serious about the Panamera and they want it to succeed. I bet they didn't forsee the current world financial crisis and maybe this is a good thing. Unfortunately the design leaves a big questionmark in my head. 

    Regarding sales figures: I highly doubt it that Porsche is going to sell 20000 Panamera in the first year of production. Right now, I would say they should be happy with 10000. I hope I'm wrong but it will really depend on the economy development in the USA and China.

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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    I have not seen the newest 7 series, but i will check one out the next time i want to kill time at a dealer. I did have an E300 merc sedan. I have seen many of the new merc models at the local dealer and have driven a CLS. 

    Mercedes on the good side are looks and solid feel. However I think from my own experience and what i have read on boards, their reliability and mechanical build quality is crap.

    My answer to alll things cars is my 1985 928S2. There is nothing quite like it. I believed that before I bought it and it is confirmed after 20 years of desire and 5 years of ownership and driving many other top cars. Anyways, one night on one of my fun rides a year or so ago I am on the highway driving my "course" and I spot a nice new mercedes S class top-of-the-line sedan entering a long sweeping  2 lane interchange curve between 2 highways.The merc was hogging the fast lane as I approached at a quick closing speed, I coasted up alongside, admired the lines of the nice sedan, and enjoyed the fact that I was sitting in a more luxurious all leather cabin, with better sound inslation,nicer carpet, listening to music in a more relaxing driving position and in a car that was superior in every respect (even safety) and hand built to boot. Then I decided to give it some gas and as I pulled away they had a chance to view one of the most beautiful cars ever built and certainly more rare these days. And as they listened to my custom exhaust pull easily away, if one of the passengers asked if the driver could keep up with me on that long sweeping curve, his answer would have been a reluctant "no, I  can't". That is the essence of 928 driving.

    Speaking of car Ads, from one of the last 928 brochures with ferrys' own words inside. Porsche says "Nothing as fast is as luxurious, and nothing as luxurious is as fast".  For that reason the 928 is still the epitome of Porsche. It should be rebuilt in the same spirit, not a successor but a new 928 where that line would still be true.

    As far as 1 billion on the panamera, that is sad. The Fisker hit the mark they were aiming for.

    Best interior of any GT/luxury car, imo928interior.JPG


    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    I like the 928 a lot, I even think that Porsche shouldn't have left this domain, leaving it completey to BMW (6 series) and Mercedes (CL&SL).

    This may change though, Porsche wants to introduce another model range besides the 997, 987, Cayenne and Panamera, the so called "infamous" 5th model.

    The 928, especially the last model year, was a beautiful car, I never understood why Porsche gave up development. I never liked the 924/944 but I liked the 968. I almost bought a 968CS instead of my first Porsche, a 993 Targa. My dealer made me a very good deal on the 993 Targa because of a model year change and I couldn't resist.

    That said, the new 7 series is very impressive but you need to DRIVE it for a couple of hours, especially at night. Make sure that the dealer car has all the gimmicks installed, incl. night vision.


    --
    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    racerx:
    Alex_997TT:

    Porsche will never compete with the likes of Mercedes on the technology front!

     

    here is the latest, amazing tech is happening nowmercedesbenz-splitview-technology1.jpg


            Exactley! If I check my BMW with Nightvision, Internet, TV, Navi, Online Services (Assist).... I really doubt that Porsche can compete with its VW Technology!



    Re: Panamera - most expensive development...

    Lars997:

            Exactley! If I check my BMW with Nightvision, Internet, TV, Navi, Online Services (Assist).... I really doubt that Porsche can compete with its VW Technology!



    Porsche will have a common electronics basis not only with VW but also with Audi.

    BMW seems to be ahead of the competition regarding automotive electronics systems but the truth is, they cook with water only too. Most of their suppliers are also working with other car manufacturers. The only reason why BMW seems to be ahead is the fact that they're risking more, meaning that their products have in my opinion a shorter testing/development time frame. This is probably also the reason why my wife's BMW M3 Cab DKG is in the repair shop right now. A defective wheel bearing left her car with dozends of electronics warning messages lighting up because BMW was so "clever"(probably due to cost) to integrate the sensors into the wheel bearing.       


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

     
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