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    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Have to change my "F430 successor" preorder to "next V8 mid engine Ferrari please"-preorder!!!



    Don't think so. Since the "F430 successor preorder" means the midengined successor or am I wrong here?

    Very confusing, that is...




    Some years ago, some proud owner of the 512M Testarossa pre-ordered the "Testarossa successor"... and then, some day, he collected his front engined 550 Maranello...

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Have to change my "F430 successor" preorder to "next V8 mid engine Ferrari please"-preorder!!!



    Don't think so. Since the "F430 successor preorder" means the midengined successor or am I wrong here?

    Very confusing, that is...




    Some years ago, some proud owner of the 512M Testarossa pre-ordered the "Testarossa successor"... and then, some day, he collected his front engined 550 Maranello...



    Ohhh nooo, that is such a cruel story...

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Have to change my "F430 successor" preorder to "next V8 mid engine Ferrari please"-preorder!!!



    Don't think so. Since the "F430 successor preorder" means the midengined successor or am I wrong here?

    Very confusing, that is...



    Who knows, perhaps with the F149 replacing the 430, Ferrari will also be introducing a completely new , more performance oriented model, e.g. the F142.

    This would actually make sense, given that Ferrari have talked ad nauseam about weight reduction, non-movable seats, etc. F149 for the masses and F142 for the enthusiasts, who are willing to pay more for the best experience.

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Who knows, perhaps with the F149 replacing the 430, Ferrari will also be introducing a completely new , more performance oriented model, e.g. the F142.

    This would actually make sense, given that Ferrari have talked ad nauseam about weight reduction, non-movable seats, etc. F149 for the masses and F142 for the enthusiasts, who are willing to pay more for the best experience.



    A more performance oriented model could be possible, but not a frontengined standard and a hardcore midengined car...

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Who knows, perhaps with the F149 replacing the 430, Ferrari will also be introducing a completely new , more performance oriented model, e.g. the F142.

    This would actually make sense, given that Ferrari have talked ad nauseam about weight reduction, non-movable seats, etc. F149 for the masses and F142 for the enthusiasts, who are willing to pay more for the best experience.



    A more performance oriented model could be possible, but not a frontengined standard and a hardcore midengined car...




    IMHO we have to say goodbye to the scenario that Ferrari is building a Maser-esque front engined V8 with less HP than F430.

    The F149 (or TAFKAD, the auto formerly known as dino) will be the successor to the F430 -- I'm pretty sure now.

    They are using the Maser plant, capable of building 10K+ cars/yr -- car will be a huge success.

    Makes sense in a lot of ways. To what LdM always said (no small/cheap Ferrari), F430 model life cycle/Scuderia introduction, those US Airbag issues, no pre infos to dealers about a "new" model, no cannibalizing model palette.

    The only thing which does not make sense is that the V8 range will loose the engine placement in the middle... which probably does only concern some die hard car nuts like us... not the usual Spider-boulevard-racer-crowd.


    There is no alternative since F142 will probably be some very expensive sport special with V8 Turbo mid engine, a model placed between F430 and Enzo maybe?

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Who knows, perhaps with the F149 replacing the 430, Ferrari will also be introducing a completely new , more performance oriented model, e.g. the F142.

    This would actually make sense, given that Ferrari have talked ad nauseam about weight reduction, non-movable seats, etc. F149 for the masses and F142 for the enthusiasts, who are willing to pay more for the best experience.



    A more performance oriented model could be possible, but not a frontengined standard and a hardcore midengined car...



    I fully agree with you.

    If all Ferrari rumors are true we are on the start of new Ferrari model line/strategy... Good or bad? From production cost point of view good for sure(just look at Porsche's 997 variations...) but, from long term costumers point of view(like you or Soenke)? I do not think so...

    Other problem is that front-engines GT/Sportscars market is already pretty crowded... Astons,Corvettes, Jaguar XK/XKR, Maserati GT/GTS, not to mentioned Mercedes AMG/BMW M models and Nissan GT-R... See my point?

    This is also a good news for Audi and Lamborghini. Many mid-engine sportscar enthusiasts will order R8 V10 if this Ferrari rumor is true... And Gallardo LP560-4 sales will be amazing...

    So, F142 will be a Murci LP640 replacement competitor? For Euro 300K? Huh...

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    The factory is at max capacity anyway. So either the new F149 will replace the F430. Or it will be built elsewhere.

    I heard Ferrari is targeting 10,000 sales a year in the near future.
    So it could be that the F430 successor is coming in 2010 (hence why no info on it by now).

    and the future F149 will be built at the Pininfarina factory.

    The coachbuilder is in serious financial trouble, he is at the board of Ferrari Spa, and it would make sense, like this there is spare building capacity at the factory for the future mid engined V8, which, incidently should increase in price.

    My thoughts...

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    The only thing which does not make sense is that the V8 range will loose the engine placement in the middle... which probably does only concern some die hard car nuts like us... not the usual Spider-boulevard-racer-crowd.

    There is no alternative since F142 will probably be some very expensive sport special with V8 Turbo mid engine, a model placed between F430 and Enzo maybe?



    So we will have three possible solutions:

    * Scuderia
    * Gallardo LP560-4
    * R8 V10

    Not sure about the sequence though...

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Putting all Ferrari models on the same platform (recycled Maserati Quattroporte platform?) would save a lot of money...

    I still do see the need for a mid-engine sportscar, but it'd be low-production and thus expensive (e.g. Scuderia+)

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Who knows, perhaps with the F149 replacing the 430, Ferrari will also be introducing a completely new , more performance oriented model, e.g. the F142.

    This would actually make sense, given that Ferrari have talked ad nauseam about weight reduction, non-movable seats, etc. F149 for the masses and F142 for the enthusiasts, who are willing to pay more for the best experience.



    A more performance oriented model could be possible, but not a frontengined standard and a hardcore midengined car...



    I fully agree with you.

    If all Ferrari rumors are true we are on the start of new Ferrari model line/strategy... Good or bad? From production cost point of view good for sure(just look at Porsche's 997 variations...) but, from long term costumers point of view(like you or Soenke)? I do not think so...

    Other problem is that front-engines GT/Sportscars market is already pretty crowded... Astons,Corvettes, Jaguar XK/XKR, Maserati GT/GTS, not to mentioned Mercedes AMG/BMW M models and Nissan GT-R... See my point?

    This is also a good news for Audi and Lamborghini. Many mid-engine sportscar enthusiasts will order R8 V10 if this Ferrari rumor is true... And Gallardo LP560-4 sales will be amazing...

    So, F142 will be a Murci LP640 replacement competitor? For Euro 300K? Huh...



    The 599 is already a Murcielago competitor, both in price and performance. The F142 was supposed to be a lightweight, 550-ish bhp mid-engined car, close to the 599 in speed, but much more sporty. If Ferrari have dropped that, they are crazy. On the other hand, used Scuderia prices will remain quite stable in the foreseeable future .

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    Rossi said:* R8 V10



    R8??? I'd rather WALK!

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    Futch said:
    The factory is at max capacity anyway. So either the new F149 will replace the F430. Or it will be built elsewhere.

    I heard Ferrari is targeting 10,000 sales a year in the near future.
    So it could be that the F430 successor is coming in 2010 (hence why no info on it by now).

    and the future F149 will be built at the Pininfarina factory.

    The coachbuilder is in serious financial trouble, he is at the board of Ferrari Spa, and it would make sense, like this there is spare building capacity at the factory for the future mid engined V8, which, incidently should increase in price.

    My thoughts...




    Isn't there some new and nearly unused Maserati plant around which they wanted to use for the F149/Dino?

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:* R8 V10



    R8??? I'd rather WALK!



    Don't let that hear Kreso...

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:* R8 V10



    R8??? I'd rather WALK!



    Don't let that hear Kreso...



    Why?

    Well admit it or not but, R8 V10 will be an interesting option. Specailly if its R-Tronic receive updates from LP560-4 e-Gear... I understand that some people do not like R8 or its design... For example I do not like Mercedes CL at all...

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Indeed, this is very sad news. The mid engine configuration has elevated the Ferrari lure and prestige. To now change to a front engine baby 599 is insanity. What market are they targeting?

    To add insult to injury the car is priced at about the same price as the 599 at least here in the US.

    I guess I will wait to get more information about the car. Ferrari dealers make their money by reselling used Ferrari's that loyal customers turn in. If the 360/430 owners are unhappy with the 149 they will sell their cars on the open market and go and buy a Gallardo or something else with a mid engine set up.

    Porsche has a great opportunity here. Retool the GT and sell it for about $250,000 and they would have a gold mine.

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    To make the whole situation even more confusing, my dealer just told me the following:

    The new F149 will be the entry level Ferrari and will cost around 130k. Power output will be something like 460hp, it will be the competitor to the forthcoming 420hp-V8-Gallardo. Real successor of the F430 will have something like 550hp and will be presented in 2009 (Frankfurt?), expect it to cost around 200k. All in all a scenario that was long expected.

    So gents, who is right?

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    To make the whole situation even more confusing, my dealer just told me the following:

    The new F149 will be the entry level Ferrari and will cost around 130k. Power output will be something like 460hp, it will be the competitor to the forthcoming 420hp-V8-Gallardo. Real successor of the F430 will have something like 550hp and will be presented in 2009 (Frankfurt?), expect it to cost around 200k. All in all a scenario that was long expected.

    So gents, who is right?




    I don't believe any more that Ferrari will introduce a model below the F430 regarding hp and performance.

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    To make the whole situation even more confusing, my dealer just told me the following:

    The new F149 will be the entry level Ferrari and will cost around 130k. Power output will be something like 460hp, it will be the competitor to the forthcoming 420hp-V8-Gallardo. Real successor of the F430 will have something like 550hp and will be presented in 2009 (Frankfurt?), expect it to cost around 200k. All in all a scenario that was long expected.

    So gents, who is right?




    I don't believe any more that Ferrari will introduce a model below the F430 regarding hp and performance.



    I am with you on this.

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    To make the whole situation even more confusing, my dealer just told me the following:

    The new F149 will be the entry level Ferrari and will cost around 130k. Power output will be something like 460hp, it will be the competitor to the forthcoming 420hp-V8-Gallardo. Real successor of the F430 will have something like 550hp and will be presented in 2009 (Frankfurt?), expect it to cost around 200k. All in all a scenario that was long expected.

    So gents, who is right?



    Stefan since LM is quoted as pricing the car at around 137,000 english pounds, your dealer information cannot be correct.

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    To make the whole situation even more confusing, my dealer just told me the following:

    The new F149 will be the entry level Ferrari and will cost around 130k. Power output will be something like 460hp, it will be the competitor to the forthcoming 420hp-V8-Gallardo. Real successor of the F430 will have something like 550hp and will be presented in 2009 (Frankfurt?), expect it to cost around 200k. All in all a scenario that was long expected.

    So gents, who is right?



    Stefan since LM is quoted as pricing the car at around 137,000 english pounds, your dealer information cannot be correct.



    Nick, 137k GBP is something like 175k Euro. That would leave some space for a - let's say - 210k Euro mid engine F430-successor.

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Indeed, this is very sad news. The mid engine configuration has elevated the Ferrari lure and prestige. To now change to a front engine baby 599 is insanity. What market are they targeting?



    Here's a story, a lot of people buy boxsters because they want a Porsche but can't afford the 911 (yet) I was one of them. Same applies here.

    As long as speculation does not push the price of the F149 past 250k/etc (at least once things cool down), it will find alot of buyers who want to get into the brand (cheaper relatively, and without dealer games(?)).

    This is good for outsiders, bad for owners. Just like when Porsche makes another useless model, or a truck, or a wagon. Another way into the brand...

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Indeed, this is very sad news. The mid engine configuration has elevated the Ferrari lure and prestige. To now change to a front engine baby 599 is insanity. What market are they targeting?

    To add insult to injury the car is priced at about the same price as the 599 at least here in the US.

    I guess I will wait to get more information about the car. Ferrari dealers make their money by reselling used Ferrari's that loyal customers turn in. If the 360/430 owners are unhappy with the 149 they will sell their cars on the open market and go and buy a Gallardo or something else with a mid engine set up.

    Porsche has a great opportunity here. Retool the GT and sell it for about $250,000 and they would have a gold mine.



    A mid-engined car, based on a CGT, with a slightly detuned V10 would certainly hit the spot and eat into Ferrari's sales, provided it is exclusive enough.

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Indeed, this is very sad news. The mid engine configuration has elevated the Ferrari lure and prestige. To now change to a front engine baby 599 is insanity. What market are they targeting?

    To add insult to injury the car is priced at about the same price as the 599 at least here in the US.

    I guess I will wait to get more information about the car. Ferrari dealers make their money by reselling used Ferrari's that loyal customers turn in. If the 360/430 owners are unhappy with the 149 they will sell their cars on the open market and go and buy a Gallardo or something else with a mid engine set up.

    Porsche has a great opportunity here. Retool the GT and sell it for about $250,000 and they would have a gold mine.



    A mid-engined car, based on a CGT, with a slightly detuned V10 would certainly hit the spot and eat into Ferrari's sales, provided it is exclusive enough.



    A 250k Porsche makes ITSELF exclusive, because at that price point people might think twice and get an F430 or DBS. The choice is no longer as obvious as in the 120k(USD) and below range. or something truely exotic (where the car and the marque are both rare).

    People spending 250k don't enjoy being raped on residuals (some won't mind)...at that price point, A Ferrari becomes more and more attractive.

    But it I'm sure it would be a great car

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    assman!!! said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    The Groom said:
    So it confirms the speculation that the F430 is replaced by the F149, and the Scuderia by the F142.



    Replacing the F430 by a front-engined model is a big disappointment. Hoping for a new Scuderia-type midengined model with an all new design sounds very promising though.



    So if this theory is true, does that mean the F430 line (excluding the Scuderia) will be discontinued once the F149 makes its debut?



    Well, as you want to put it.

    I always expected that the successor of the F430 will move upwards and become an even more sportier model. A new "entry level" frontengined car and a raw high performance midengined model above the new F149 for the hardcore Ferraristi. Of course you could say that this new model will be in one line with the Scuderia, but since the new car will have not much in common with the old Modena-based Scuderia, I would see the whole situation more as a totally new model lineup of Ferrari, with frontengined cars to start with, big frontengined highend GT-cars for the senior Ferrarista and in between a midengined model for those custumers, who definetely don't want their engines in front of them.



    Sounds like a great product lineup. Something for everybody

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    There is no alternative since F142 will probably be some very expensive sport special with V8 Turbo mid engine, a model placed between F430 and Enzo maybe?



    Honestly, that would be a dream come true (except for the price...)

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Who knows, perhaps with the F149 replacing the 430, Ferrari will also be introducing a completely new , more performance oriented model, e.g. the F142.

    This would actually make sense, given that Ferrari have talked ad nauseam about weight reduction, non-movable seats, etc. F149 for the masses and F142 for the enthusiasts, who are willing to pay more for the best experience.



    A more performance oriented model could be possible, but not a frontengined standard and a hardcore midengined car...



    I fully agree with you.

    If all Ferrari rumors are true we are on the start of new Ferrari model line/strategy... Good or bad? From production cost point of view good for sure(just look at Porsche's 997 variations...) but, from long term costumers point of view(like you or Soenke)? I do not think so...

    Other problem is that front-engines GT/Sportscars market is already pretty crowded... Astons,Corvettes, Jaguar XK/XKR, Maserati GT/GTS, not to mentioned Mercedes AMG/BMW M models and Nissan GT-R... See my point?

    This is also a good news for Audi and Lamborghini. Many mid-engine sportscar enthusiasts will order R8 V10 if this Ferrari rumor is true... And Gallardo LP560-4 sales will be amazing...

    So, F142 will be a Murci LP640 replacement competitor? For Euro 300K? Huh...



    The 599 is already a Murcielago competitor, both in price and performance. The F142 was supposed to be a lightweight, 550-ish bhp mid-engined car, close to the 599 in speed, but much more sporty. If Ferrari have dropped that, they are crazy. On the other hand, used Scuderia prices will remain quite stable in the foreseeable future .



    I don't think they dropped this concept. Just think of the Enzo-successor study: a little less power than the Enzo - but light weight (1000kg!). I believe this concept car defines their future strategy. The F142 should fit well into that strategy if you ask me...

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    To make the whole situation even more confusing, my dealer just told me the following:

    The new F149 will be the entry level Ferrari and will cost around 130k. Power output will be something like 460hp, it will be the competitor to the forthcoming 420hp-V8-Gallardo. Real successor of the F430 will have something like 550hp and will be presented in 2009 (Frankfurt?), expect it to cost around 200k. All in all a scenario that was long expected.

    So gents, who is right?



    Stefan since LM is quoted as pricing the car at around 137,000 english pounds, your dealer information cannot be correct.



    Nick, 137k GBP is something like 175k Euro. That would leave some space for a - let's say - 210k Euro mid engine F430-successor.



    210k makes sense - similar price as for the Scuderia (just a bit higher). What should one expect for a 550hp+, 1400kg- car? 210k would be more than fair.

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Hmmm...
    For Euro 210K we can get upcoming Nissan VeyNIPPONron. 777hp/888Nm...

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Hmmm...
    For Euro 210K we can get upcoming Nissan VeyNIPPONron. 777hp/888Nm...



    A Nissan with those specs.. what a dream car

    Re: Paris 2008, F149 IS OFFICIAL!

    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Indeed, this is very sad news. The mid engine configuration has elevated the Ferrari lure and prestige. To now change to a front engine baby 599 is insanity. What market are they targeting?

    To add insult to injury the car is priced at about the same price as the 599 at least here in the US.

    I guess I will wait to get more information about the car. Ferrari dealers make their money by reselling used Ferrari's that loyal customers turn in. If the 360/430 owners are unhappy with the 149 they will sell their cars on the open market and go and buy a Gallardo or something else with a mid engine set up.

    Porsche has a great opportunity here. Retool the GT and sell it for about $250,000 and they would have a gold mine.



    A mid-engined car, based on a CGT, with a slightly detuned V10 would certainly hit the spot and eat into Ferrari's sales, provided it is exclusive enough.



    A 250k Porsche makes ITSELF exclusive, because at that price point people might think twice and get an F430 or DBS. The choice is no longer as obvious as in the 120k(USD) and below range. or something truely exotic (where the car and the marque are both rare).

    People spending 250k don't enjoy being raped on residuals (some won't mind)...at that price point, A Ferrari becomes more and more attractive.

    But it I'm sure it would be a great car



    Tom, with the 149 and Ferrari production doubling, the exclusivity factor will take a hit. If Porsche could visually distnguish the car form the 911 lineup, it would certainly get my attention.

    I just read about an excellent Ferrari customer in Germany ordering a Scud and twice being told by his delaer there were delays and later found out his car was sold by his dealer for 60,000k over MSRP to someone else. This nonsense will kill Ferrari.

     
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