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    PSM or TC on GT2/GT3?

    The past week an other GT2 was destroyed to the Nordschleife in a curve called Eiskurve because in that field there are many trees that make easy shadow and it's possible that it was iced or wet.
    I know that GT2 and GT3 are race cars ,lights and more difficult to drive respect other Porsches,but I'dont undersand why Porsche is obstinate to don't mount them the PSM .
    I understand that in track(a real track ,not the Ring!) it is little useful,penalizing even for drivers like Walter Rolhr or Horst von Saurma ,but for normal "pilots" like me and many buyers of GT2/GT3 this option could save our life and many moneies...
    on the street I think that PSM in a 380hp RW car is important.
    This is the rason why I have not bought it now....
    Ferrari,Lamborghini do it (with the switch!!)....Porsche doesn't!
    My friend Franz in Italy says that his porsche dealer can
    mount a Bosh chip (plug-play) that is connected to the GT3/GT2 ABS sensors and engine. this chip isn't a real PSM ,but similar ! (like the old 996 pre my 2002 TC control)
    using the machine often on bad mountain roads I'd like to know if this is real thing or a joke.
    If it's real my future car could be a GT? .....

    ciaoooo!

    Re: PSM or TC on GT2/GT3?

    I think one of the reasons is that the LSD was incompatible (until now) with the PSM, thats why PSM cars get the ABD instead of LSD. The ABD is not as sporty as the LSD and limits performance at extreme limits such as track use. Now they offered the first PSM with LSD 911, the 40th anniv 911, however I don't know if the result is good enough for a GT3/GT2 yet.

    Personally I would think it a great idea and value to have PSM on a GT2 or GT3 if it can be "completely" disabled with a switch AND its implementation doesn't carry any 2nd hand performance handicaps (like the ABD).

    Re: PSM or TC on GT2/GT3?

    IMO Porsche won't allow a driver's aid like PSM to be 100% disengagable. There would be liability issues if an under-experienced driver disabled PSM, had an accident, and then claimed that the system failed.

    Re: PSM or TC on GT2/GT3?

    you guys want want to read this

    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=22881&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=93&fpart=1

    RC saw PSM on an 04 GT2.

    the GT2 crashes i'm familiar with seem very similar to old 930 driver error problems: at the limit, over cook a corner or hit a bump, instinctively lift too much in response, and spin

    Re: PSM or TC on GT2/GT3?

    Watt,

    I think you're confusing two things here.
    PSM = Porsche Stability Management
    PCM = Porsche Communication Management

    Not exactly the same.

    Gregor

    Re: PSM or TC on GT2/GT3?

    Watt, I believe that was PCM, not PSM, to which RC referred.

    Re: PSM or TC on GT2/GT3?

    Quote:
    sergini said:
    The past week an other GT2 was destroyed to the Nordschleife in a curve called Eiskurve because in that field there are many trees that make easy shadow and it's possible that it was iced or wet.
    I know that GT2 and GT3 are race cars ,lights and more difficult to drive respect other Porsches,but I'dont undersand why Porsche is obstinate to don't mount them the PSM .
    I understand that in track(a real track ,not the Ring!) it is little useful,penalizing even for drivers like Walter Rolhr or Horst von Saurma ,but for normal "pilots" like me and many buyers of GT2/GT3 this option could save our life and many moneies...
    on the street I think that PSM in a 380hp RW car is important.
    This is the rason why I have not bought it now....
    Ferrari,Lamborghini do it (with the switch!!)....Porsche doesn't!
    My friend Franz in Italy says that his porsche dealer can
    mount a Bosh chip (plug-play) that is connected to the GT3/GT2 ABS sensors and engine. this chip isn't a real PSM ,but similar ! (like the old 996 pre my 2002 TC control)
    using the machine often on bad mountain roads I'd like to know if this is real thing or a joke.
    If it's real my future car could be a GT? .....

    ciaoooo!




    hey Sergini

    I personally do not agree with you. Why?
    Simply because I think that the GT3/GT2 range is a car exclusively built ( at least in the theory ) for people who have a certain experience in driving. This car was made to give fun, to go fast, to be a real sportcar.
    Let me have a guess on the reasons why Porsche has not added to the option list the PSM.
    The first reason has been said by Stephen. It is a possibility, but we know also that many cars have totally disengable traction/stability control systems, may be is just that Porsche cares about the life of their clients
    The second more obvious reason is that if Porsche made the GT3 and the GT2 with PSM, these two cars would've probably sell much more but as a chain, it would've bring to create more a marketing product than a sportcar, with the consequences that more and more people will buy it and probably you would start seeing also TV/DVD system, sunroof and 4 seats, which will bring Porsche to lose their sportivity of its GT cars.
    I guess again that they prefer keeping a name that is still sign of race and extreme sportcars than making more profit but using it as a marketing strategy. I think for profit they have no problems because there are a lot of people like you that buy also Cayennes I know that you like making the economy turn on well. Any shares in Porsche?

    Ciao capretta!

    PS: scometto che sei diventato un campione sulla Playstation adesso che ti hanno levato la patente!

    Re: PSM or TC on GT2/GT3?

    oops, my apologies

    PSM & LSD

    Quote:
    Captain Bady said:
    I think that the GT3/GT2 range is a car exclusively built ( at least in the theory ) for people who have a certain experience in driving. This car was made to give fun, to go fast, to be a real sportcar.



    I could see this argument if the addition of the electronics in any way detracted from the sportiness of the car. In the case of PSM it does not (or at least would not if it could be fully dissengaged).

    Also, if you are right that this is a car built with a certain elite driver in mind, don't you think that Porsche should be qualifying who buys this car? So far, all you need is hard cold cash to drive one away. No one even checks to see if you have a driver's license.

    I think the real reason is simply economics. In order to make PSM work it is necessary to differentially brake the wheels. The GT2/3 have relatively high lockup LSD's (by road standards). To make PSM work with these LSD's it would be necessary to electronically dissengage the LSD. These are very limited production cars and building a low production LSD that could do that would be expensive. Cheaper to put an off-the-shelf LSD in the car and delete the PSM.

    Stephen

    Re: PSM & LSD

    You may be right on about the costs being prohibitive on such a limitedly produced car. As far as driver's licenses go, dealers in Texas won't let you take delivery of a vehicle without a license and proof of insurance. No license or insurance ould put a lot of responsability on the dealer if anything were to happen.

    Re: PSM & LSD

    All interesting posts. But, in the end you are messing with what makes the GT3 & GT2 true "drivers' cars".

    I kind of understand why some of you would have no problem with a true on/off switch for PSM, but this totally interferes with what these cars are about. It is why the Turbo is so capable, yet so accessible for anyone to drive. I think it was our beloved friend/Rennteam Moderator Luigi who said something along the lines of, 'A sports car should stir your soul every time you look at it, and should make you respect it. Something that makes you want to be a better driver, to work at driving it better, and faster. A little fear in the mix is good, no more than to make sure you respect the car of course.'(Sorry if I butchered your words Luigi )

    If all we have to do is flip a switch to make the car "tame" again, we will lose some of this respect that I think Luigi is talking about. We totally diminish an important charm of the car. A "helping hand" is always there for us when we want it, are lazy, or our skill is not up to the level the car requires to go truly fast.

    If someone buys a GT2 that does not necessarily have the skill to drive it fast around a racetrack (as many cannot), SO WHAT?! No one should care, Porsche shouldn't care. The novice driver in his GT2 will still have a very rewarding driving experience as long as he/she isn't stupid. You don't need to get bonzai lap times to have fun in this car IMHO. I admire the thoughtful novice driver who wants to buy the 462hp, tire smoking monster that 'stirs his soul', just as much as the experienced driver who uses the advanced capability of all-wheel-drive of the TURBO to get the most out of his car in all types of driving conditions. So the GT series is not meant simply for one type of skilled driver IMHO, but all different skill levels that want the experience that it offers. Trying to offer the option of a tame driving experience with the flip of one switch, and an involved experience with the flip of another is not what the GT2/3s are about.

    Re: PSM & LSD

    Well said Erik! After all, about 50years worth of Porsches had no PSM

    Big balls and the lowly cucumber

    Erik,

    Guess I am thick because I just don't get it. Can you please explain to me how the driving experience of a GT2 with PSM fully disabled via a switch would differ from a GT2 without PSM? Wouldn't they handle absolutely identically? Wouldn't you know you were driving the car on the edge? Wouldn't you be supremely satisfied with your own performance? Wouldn't you crash and die if you made a mistake (thus providing even an authentic final driving experience)? So pray, please tell me what the difference is.

    Actually, I think I know. It isn't about how you view yourself but rather how others view you. The GT2 without PSM is the ultimate advertisement for big balls. But add PSM to the option list and all of a sudden no one will know what you have tucked away. Now it might be just a cucumber. Excuse my crassness here but I cannot help but think as I read your post that it applies more to sex and women than driving and cars.

    Come on guys, who gives a damn what the world thinks of us in these cars. Isn't it all really about driving and not about posing?

    Stephen

    Re: Big balls.

    Stephen - I agree with alot of what you said and I guess most of my unhappiness with PSM comes from my experiences with it on my 996 C2. I guess if there really was a switch that would allow you to turn it off entirely (with no intervention under any circumstances) AND it didn't automatically turn itself back on everytime you hit the brakes or started the car, then it would be a valuable thing to have.

    I could see it being very helpful in bad weather or when learning a new track for instance.

    However, my biggest gripe was the lack of an LSD with PSM. I hated losing traction on some slow corners, spinning the inside tire, and then having PSM shut down the motor - really annoying. If they offered LSD and PSM together (which they began with the 40th Anniversary model) then I'd welcome PSM much more freely.

    Re: Big balls and the lowly cucumber

    I don't get it either, if it can be "fully" disabled and doesn't carry any performance handicaps such as an AWD system or even the weight of a stereo, then how is it less of a sportcar? how is our experience or performance going to suffer when its off? its exactly the same if its off, but then on a rainy day or in certain public roads you can turn it on and have that extra safety buffer of an un-intrusive PSM that will actually increase your performance and safety than with it off in those situations.

    So it only brings pros, and no cons, except maybe for the image since people know the car has driver aids and may be turned on, but is that what these cars are about? it shouldn't have fully disengageable PSM cause of the less-sportcar image? while we are at it, why have even ABS then.

    If you want to drive with no aids whatsoever (not even mechanical), 3 times more HP per weight to deal with, a contact patch of a cigarrette pack to "dance" with and no seat belts, seats or cage then get a 1000cc sportbike , dealing with a GT2 without PSM doesn't impress a bit then

    LSD, PSM & differentials

    Hi Grant,

    Now I do think we're reading on the same page. I totally agree with you on the importance of being able to turn the system off. I also would never trade a real LSD for PSM. And I really worry that Porsche's solution to adding PSM to the GT2/3 would be to delete the LSD or offer a lower lockup LSD. I believe the reason they were able to make it work on the 40th Anniversary model was that it is a much lower lockup LSD.

    I don't think that is an option with the LSD in the GT2/3. I suspect the only way they could keep the high lockup of the GT2/3 LSD would be to re-engineer it to fully integrate electronically with the PSM.

    I believe the biggest improvements in cars like the Turbo and GT2/3 could be had now by re-engineering the drive train. After getting my AWD Audi and experiencing that and then doing a little research I realise that the AWD system in the Turbo is pretty primitive. There are much better systems out there. I believe that Porsche could develop an electronic AWD system that fully integrated with PSM and provided every bit of the throttle controllability of the current GT2/3. This is currently my biggest disappointment with the Turbo. I don't think that the GT2/3 necessarily has to be RWD to be what it is. Imagine a car with fully variable differential that were controlled by the electronics and could be adjusted to suit the driver real-time. Just take a look at what is in a current rally car to see what I mean. Similar computer controlled differentials are already in production cars. The technology is already out there. It just would take someone like Porsche to apply it to a high performance car.

    Stephen

    Re: LSD, PSM & differentials

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:There are much better systems out there. I believe that Porsche could develop an electronic AWD system that fully integrated with PSM and provided every bit of the throttle controllability of the current GT2/3. This is currently my biggest disappointment with the Turbo. I don't think that the GT2/3 necessarily has to be RWD to be what it is. Imagine a car with fully variable differential that were controlled by the electronics and could be adjusted to suit the driver real-time. Just take a look at what is in a current rally car to see what I mean. Similar computer controlled differentials are already in production cars. The technology is already out there. It just would take someone like Porsche to apply it to a high performance car.



    Porsche already had such an AWD, the 959's PSK system! it was an active diferential type system, like the Haldex that Audi/VW uses on the A3 platform models or Nissan Skyline GTR's ATTESA E-TS PRO.

    But imagine a 996TT-X50 with the X73 suspensions and an active differential AWD system, it would put a GT2 in a tight spot in most situations varying the driver, track surface, weather conditions, etc

    Re: Big balls and the lowly cucumber

    Quote:
    Actually, I think I know. It isn't about how you view yourself but rather how others view you. The GT2 without PSM is the ultimate advertisement for big balls. But add PSM to the option list and all of a sudden no one will know what you have tucked away.



    I knew Stephen was a smart guy... The above also applies to options. The less options, the more of a "man" you are. Thats why you should always make sure to tell people that the only extra you ordered was the "thicker steering wheel" option.

    Quote:
    Come on guys, who gives a damn what the world thinks of us in these cars. Isn't it all really about driving and not about posing?



    Exactly ......Because the reality is, no one is ever going to know if you have PSM equipped unless you tell them. I'm really trying to have an open mind here, and since we both agree that "its all really about the driving", I fail to see how having a PSM switch will make the driving experience more enjoyable. Is there a right answer on this for everyone,,,of course not. A good way to answer it for yourself though, is to remember an experience when PSM kicked in for a critical moment when you were on the track. How did it make you feel?

    As to PSM and sex, I don't really know.......there was at least one ocassion when I was a kid that I would have appreciated something to keep me "on the racing line" so to speak,,,,,but I learned, just like most people learn how to drive their GTs. It just takes some time at the wheel.....in both cases.

    Re: PSM or TC on GT2/GT3?

    Greatly put Erik. It is pretty much the same discussion why someone would go for a C2, when he could also have a C4 with its better handling capabilities on e.g. snowy roads. It's got to do with the myth behind the 911 concept.

    Water cooled = better = 911 purists hate it
    4WD = better = 911 purists hate it
    PSM = better = 911 purists hate it

    So WHY build a water cooled, 4WD race car with a PSM system, when every 911 purist will hate it???

    If you want a GT2 with PSM and 4WD then go and get yourself a turbo. Order a PCCB with it and get a GT2 bodykit. Ask TTP or TechArt to add a performance kit and... Voila: Here's your GT2 with all the nuts and bolts you would expect from a "newbie friendly high performance sports car"...

    ...but don't forget to get a Tiptronic.

    I hope you see my point: As soon as Porsche would release a GT2 with a PSM, some will rise and ask for 4WD... and by the time they add 4WD, some will ask for a Tiptronic. It's utter BS.

    If you want a high performance sports car which is ULTIMATIVELY built for track performance AND for pro-drivers, then pick a GT2 or GT3 (RS). If that's not your cup of tea, then go for a 996 turbo. But do not start to mix these two concepts.

    Re: PSM or TC on GT2/GT3?

    Quote:
    Martin J.S. said:
    I hope you see my point: As soon as Porsche would release a GT2 with a PSM, some will rise and ask for 4WD... and by the time they add 4WD, some will ask for a Tiptronic.



    I see your point but I think we may be talking about different things, let me clarify my point. The PSM would need to be able to be "fully" disabled with a switch and carry "no" performance loss in its implementation. But AWD on the other hand cannot be disabeled AND adds weight to the car, and even more so the Tiptronic. Thats the difference, its pretty esasy to draw the line so asking then for AWD or Tip is crazy, I agree.

    So basically there are no cons whatsoever unlike other non-GT2/3 model options. If you don't want PSM, you turn it off and you will never know its there. And since these are road legal street cars, more track oriented but will still be used on the road most of the time nevertheless, you can turn it back on when ever you want to, such as the less than track-perfect everyday conditions were you may prioritise a bit of safety over lap times. And even so, you won't normally know its there either in those conditions because it not as intrusive as Merc's ESP or BMW's DSC. You will only normally know its there when it comes on to save you from an accident. You could also use it when you are learning a new track or learning how to drive the GT3/2 when you first get it. Then on the track or on your favorite mountain road that you know well you could turn it back off. Also it could have a couple of different settings for the GT2/3 that may be programmed to be even less intrusive that what the normal PSM already is.

    Wouldn't you agree to it then?

    Re: PSM or TC on GT2/GT3?

    Carlos - well argued...I rather like the idea of adjusting PSM settings on a GT3...

    Re: PSM or TC on GT2/GT3?

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:...Wouldn't you agree to it then?...


    Carlos: Absoultely. Having experienced PSM in action several times on extremely wet roads in my Boxster I am sold on the system but I would never get it on a GT3 unless it could be completely disabled for the track. Unfortunately, as mentioned above, liability concerns would probably prevent Porsche from ever offering such a system.

    Re: PSM or TC on GT2/GT3?

    I completely disagree and hope never to see PSM on a GT2/GT3. No, a 380 hp GT3 does not require traction control. The reason is that the thrust is linear and controllable, if you are having traction issues it's because YOU are being too aggressive with the throttle or taking a turn too quickly. If you want to drive aggressively on the street you better be pretty talented or a little less talented and have a 996 turbo with PSM and AWD. My point is that when driving aggressively it is you who is dangerous, not the car. A car the like the 996 Turbo which does a little of the driving for you is merely a crutch to make the situation a little less dangerous on street (it catches the mistakes that you wouldn't have made if you were a better driver or driving more responsibly). 400 hp cars are not dangerous if you only use 100hp, even if they don't have PSM. Part of owning a GT3/GT2 is taking responsibility for your horsepower. So there is nothing to the argument that the car is dangerous under normal driving conditions. In fact, since the cornering and breaking limits are so much higher than a regular car, theoretically you should be safer taking a turn at a given speed since you'd have to do a lot more wrong to exceed the grip.

    Under sporting driving conditions, of course the car is more dangerous than if it had PSM, it is always more dangerous because you have to correct your own mistakes. This is why the car is so wonderful to drive, it won't save you, but the driving dynamics encourage you to save yourself and make the process very rewarding. The car's quick reflexes would be watered down with PSM.

    The owners of these cars chose them so they wouldn't have "safety nets". These are serious cars and people should take responsibility when they are driving in a way that makes the car dangerous on the street not blame the car for lacking PSM. On the track, owners wouldn't want PSM, it would ruin the driving dynamics and the entire point of the car. The only solution for safety on the track is a roll cage and six point harnesses.

    I have a 1979 930 that is having a 600hp 3.6 liter motor put in (claimed, I'm going to the dyno as soon as it's in, and broken in). Before it had a 3.3 liter motor upgraded to 340+ hp. However, on the street I've never felt scared in the car, since the level of grip is so high. In fact, I've scared myself more in my 1987 BMW 325is because it's limits aren't as high, even though it has half the power.

    Re: PSM or TC on GT2/GT3?

    I copy and past an article found on Internet time ago, even just on rennteam, don't remember :


    Porsche Stability Management System: A racer's perspective
    April 29, 2001 marked the official return to Formula One of electronic
    driver aids, including traction control. In racing as elsewhere,
    technology that enhances (or interferes with, depending on your
    perspective) human performance is controversial. Potential Porsche buyers
    face a similar controversy in deciding whether or not to purchase Porsche
    Stability Management System (PSM) in the new Carrera 2, Boxster, or
    Boxster S. PSM is standard in the Carrera 4 and Turbo and unavailable in
    the new GT2.

    If you never intend to race your new Porsche, the decision to purchase
    PSM is simple. If you can afford it, buy it. It provides a level of
    safety impossible to achieve by driver skill alone. Here's why. PSM
    monitors the ABS sensors (which measure the speed of each wheel), engine
    speed (RPM), throttle position (via E-Gas), gear selection, lateral
    acceleration (side to side), yaw (the car spinning in a circle), and
    steering wheel position. This enables the PSM to detect oversteer and
    understeer. It basically determines the slip angle of the front and rear
    tires, or more simply, when the car is not going where the steering wheel
    is pointed. Oversteer is minimized by automatically applying the brake on
    the outer front wheel in a bend, slowing the rotation of the car;
    understeer is minimized by applying the brake on the inner rear wheel,
    speeding the car's rotation. No driver will be able to do that until
    Porsche develops a car with four brake pedals. However, PSM is not only a
    braking system. If you lift off the throttle in a low traction situation
    (wet, snow, etc.) and the back of the car gets loose, PSM will increase
    the engine speed (blip the throttle) to keep the car in line. Also, if
    traction is low, PSM can use engine braking (EDC - engine drag torque
    control) to slow the car. PSM can calculate the amount of available
    traction by comparing wheel speeds at all four corners of the car.

    Recognizing that even street drivers expect excitement from their
    Porsches, PSM allows approximately seven percent slip angle before
    intervening. Five to seven percent is generally agreed to be the limit
    for modern, high performance tires. The biggest difference between PSM
    and the other systems on the market today (Mercedes Benz, BMW, Jaguar,
    etc.) is that PSM is programmed to allow a good deal of slip, as you can
    see. All of these other systems clamp down the moment any slip (i.e., fun
    driving) is detected.

    However, if you require more fun, you can turn the PSM off. When you
    "turn it off," you are taking only the outputs offline. The PSM system is
    still collecting data from the ABS system, the yaw sensor, the lateral
    acceleration sensors and the steering wheel position sensor. If you have
    PSM off, and the levels of slip are exceeded, and you do not touch the
    brakes, the car will continue to slide. If you have not exceeded the
    levels of slip allowed, and apply the brakes (no matter how hard), PSM
    will not active its outputs. However, if you have exceeded the levels,
    AND apply the brakes (no matter how hard), PSM will activate until the
    car has regained control or you get off the brakes, at which point PSM
    stops outputting. PSM assumes that since you hit the brakes that you are
    not comfortable with the level of sliding and that you want it to help.
    This answers the question, posed by Mike Furnish on the PCASD forum, that
    inspired this article, "what happens in a spin when you put both feet
    in?" Presuming that you put in the correct two pedals, PSM will activate.

    So what about PSM and racing? At this point in my career, PSM is an asset
    to my racing. It has allowed me to more confidently explore the limits of
    traction on the first few laps at a new track, particularly in scarier
    corners, e.g., Turn 8 at Willow Springs. I was very happy to have it at
    Phoenix International Raceway, a track with concrete barriers everywhere.
    When PSM activates you can feel it, much like you can feel ABS. It will
    show you where you are losing traction while keeping you on the track if
    the loss was unintentional. When it engages, it may slow you down where
    you might not want it to later, i.e., where you really do want more
    oversteer, but on those first few practice laps, who cares? You can
    actually throttle steer the car quite well with PSM on as long as you are
    smooth, the yaw is not excessive, and the corner is fast enough to allow
    smooth inputs. This in itself is a good training tool. So PSM is good for
    practice, but what about when it matters, during timed laps?

    In a time trial situation, it would depend on the course whether it would
    matter if PSM were on or off. On a tight road course, you would most
    likely want it off. On an autocross track, you want it off for sure. If
    you had sufficient presence of mind on a road course you could turn it on
    and off depending on the corner. You could make sure it's off for Turn 2
    and 4 at Willow Springs, turns where throttle steering comes into play.
    You could turn it on for Turn 8, the last place on earth you want to see
    your tail catching up with you. I've never done this, but it illustrates
    the point.

    So far, so good. Since you can turn PSM off, why wouldn't you want to buy
    it, even for a car you intend to race? It seems like the best of both
    worlds. However, remember above where I said that when PSM is off, it is
    still collecting data and if you hit the brakes when the levels of slip
    are exceeded, it will intervene. That could be a negative in one racing
    technique, trail braking, where you are obviously on the brakes and
    turning. There are two reasons to trail brake, one in which PSM is
    neutral or even a positive, and one in which it can interfere with the
    driver's intention. The first is when you are trail braking to lengthen
    the straight or to maintain a higher speed through the first part of a
    turn. In this case, you want the car to stay on its directed path. If
    things are going as intended, PSM is very unlikely to engage even though
    you are on the brakes. If it does, it is probably because you lost rear
    traction in a pretty big way. By engaging it didn't cost you time since
    your intention was to slow down anyway and it may have saved you from
    spinning. The second use of trail braking serves a different purpose. If
    you are trail braking to induce some oversteer intentionally to tighten
    the corner, PSM could interfere in the same way as when it is on and you
    lift to oversteer. While I have a lot of experience throttle steering the
    car, with PSM on and off, I don't brake to loosen the rear of my 996 C2.
    Lifting is normally sufficient. However, I have seen this technique, in
    the form of left-foot braking, used in a friend's 993 C4 in Turn 4 at
    Willow and Turn 5b at Spring Mountain and presume it would be useful in
    the newer 996 C4. Since the 993 does not have PSM, I cannot tell you to
    what extent it would have interfered. If you are smooth, probably very
    little, if at all. But, this is one possible negative to weigh against
    the aforementioned positives. I think it's worth it, but let me give the
    last word to Porsche.

    "We wanted the car to perform like a Porsche not a family saloon, so the
    system has been designed for minimal intrusion," explained Thomas Herold,
    the Carrera 4 Project Manager. "Its limits are really high and you can
    reach the same lateral g-force number with the system in or out on a
    steady state cornering circle. Thus, if you are a good driver, you can
    keep the power on in a drift and even adjust the car's attitude on power
    in a corner without interference. But if you lift off suddenly or brake,
    and the car is in danger of destabilizing, the system will reach out and
    save you."

    "The difference is small around the Nurburgring for a skilled test
    driver," he explained. "Within one second a lap in fact. This is the way
    the car is made. If you are smooth, there is no interference from the
    system. But if you are ragged, the system will be cutting in all the time
    to stabilize the car, so an aggressive driver will be slower with the
    system on."1



    beautiful argument,but you have not answered: exists a esp ,tc chip plug and play ( bosh) to mount on the GTs?

    Re: PSM or TC on GT2/GT3?

    Sure puts things into perspective, thanks for the article sergini

    Re: PSM or TC on GT2/GT3?

    Quote:
    We wanted the car to perform like a Porsche not a family saloon


    So the new sedan coming out won't be a Porsche

    Re: PSM or TC on GT2/GT3?

    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Quote:
    We wanted the car to perform like a Porsche not a family saloon


    So the new sedan coming out won't be a Porsche



    I guess you got it a little bit wrong.

    Most family saloons out there have a pretty conservative ESP setup, especially Mercedes Benz but also Volvo, Audi and even BMW. Porsche's PSM takes a different approach to satisfy "dynamic" drivers by reacting as late as possible.

    Even the Cayenne has such a PSM setup.

    Re: PSM or TC on GT2/GT3?

    Keith - appreciate you perspective, but I am not asserting that PSM should be a substitute for driver skill...

    ...rather I see its utility when traction conditions differ from what the driver expects. As in oil, water or sand being dropped...under these circumstances I am not going to bemoan a lack of purity in the car...

    Stability control -- early vs. late intervention.

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Most family saloons out there have a pretty conservative ESP setup, especially Mercedes Benz but also Volvo, Audi and even BMW. Porsche's PSM takes a different approach to satisfy "dynamic" drivers by reacting as late as possible.



    I think for the vast majority of cars, conservative is the way to go. Let's face it, most drivers aren't looking to explore the outer limits of their car's handling. They are moms in compact cars with their kids in baby seats in the back. They are people just trying to get on with their everyday lives.

    But there are a few special sedans which are different. Things like the M3. These cars need to be much better. At the moment, to have any fun in an M3, it is essential to turn off the stability control. That shouldn't be. It should be possible to push these cars much harder than it currently is with the stability system still engaged. I know of a number of accidents which have happened because the driver was forced to turn off the system.

    Late intervention isn't without risk. Some people here have reported situations where PSM hasn't been able to maintain control. Still, far better to have the system very occasionally not be able to cope than to force the driver to frequently turn it off with the resultant higher risk of accidents.

    Even better would be a system which allowed the driver to dial in the setting he wanted - to set it one way for his wife and child and another for his quick romp through the mountains. I would really like to see the manufacturers giving the drivers more control over these systems. That would be the ultimate.

    Stephen

    Re: PSM or TC on GT2/GT3?

    Mastering by repetition a challenging corner at 100 % concentration on a glass smooth race track is one thing. Having to suddenly swerve at 70 mph on a cambered wet road to avoid that refrigerator that just fell off the back of the pick-truck ahead of you and keeping the back end pendulum from exiting the road first is something else completely. Give me PSM at that moment. Most of the miles put on these cars are road miles , after all. We, of course , are all as good as Micheal Schumacher , but the people we share the public roads with drive mostly drive like Barney the Dinosaur.

     
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