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    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    I leave my PSM on and drive pretty close to it most of the time. It will generally come on a few times during each of these drives. IOW, I'd say I'm probably in the 8-9/10+ range. I'd estimate the drive with the CGT (being someone elses and being unfamiliar with it) at no more than 7/10.



    Just be careful with the Stradale, Ben. I have read it's a handful at the limit, but not as bad as the man-eating CGT.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    I leave my PSM on and drive pretty close to it most of the time. It will generally come on a few times during each of these drives. IOW, I'd say I'm probably in the 8-9/10+ range. I'd estimate the drive with the CGT (being someone elses and being unfamiliar with it) at no more than 7/10.



    Just be careful with the Stradale, Ben. I have read it's a handful at the limit, but not as bad as the man-eating CGT.



    I dunno. During my test drive in "race" mode I was able to get the rear to step out at maybe 40 to 50 (without the traction control bothering me even) and it was completely progressive and felt so natural. That said, it took me a while to feel so very good about rear engined (rear weight biased) 911s after coming from 50/50 weighted front engine BMWs and I look forward to growing as a driver with the mid engined set up. I never imagined a street car could handle better than a BMW until the 911s. At this point, I can't imagine a better handler than the 911. So, hopefully I'll be wrong again. The braking and throttle steering (to keep the car at the edge both front and rear) ability of a 911 is just amazing and is a direct result of the engine and weight placement. It's no wonder this "dated" (as some like to erroneously refer to it) set up continues to win races.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    RC, there sure were a lot of (incorrect) assumptions in that last post along with an attitude which luckily I've not been on the other end of previously.




    Come on, RC. Just when things are going well between Nick and you, you're now starting to treat Ben unfairly. Get some sleep and hopefully you'll feel better in the morning. Good night. Don't let the Stradale's bite.

    Re: Skill and expectations...

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    "I think that PAG may have made a mistake in not selecting its CGT customers. Ferrari does this for the wrong snobish reasons, PAG should do it for the right reason of matching customers skills/expectations w/ the car."

    When you're making 399 examples as Ferrari did, you can do that. However, when you make 1500, you have to sell to anyone willing and able to pay you $500K.



    Yeah, I know that, 1500 is the number that justifies the CGT production economics. Ferrari does small production runs because they are not a business, they have a daddy to support them.

    However, if PAG encounters problems w/ the CGT customer base they will have to do something - probably some sort of active suspension mod, allowing height adjustment and an auto tranny, perhaps a true DSG.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    ben,
    before this test drive you were like many of us wondering why larry was having such difficulties with the clutch. I think you said that only those with a [censored] would have trouble. Could you please explain in some detail how the clutch reacted? By this i mean what happens when you raise rpm's to say 3K and slowly let the clutch out as you hopefully begin to move. I know you have already mentioned the no-gas result.

    As to the sound of the stradale, i have heard all new ferrari's with the best aftermarket sound money can buy and i do like the 360 sound very much even though not as ballsy as a 928 with an rmb. I have heard the CGT exhaust on video clips and it sounds out of this world. So why such fondness for a nice street car sound over an F1 sound?

    For ben and everyone else -
    The cockpit can't be any more tight than a murci in which i could not even reposition my ass it is so cramped, but i accept that as the price you pay for a limited purpose vehicle.
    The hard suspension is kind of expected isn't it? The pics i have seen show a race type setup. Are people including ben expecting S600 space and luxury with enzo numbers in this car? I know guys who put on koni/eibach set-ups on 928's and are disappointed when their fillings start falling out. Just seems like a major turnaround in bens thoughts. Hey RC, could you rustle up a few CGT owners who are happy with their purchase and who don't work for PAG?
    Tom

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    I wasn't paying attention to the tach so much when feathering the throttle to get it off the line and so therefore can't tell you if it was at 3k or less. However, I suspect that's about right. You need to feather it or you will lunge forward (the car has some power). There is not so much "slowly" letting out the clutch in this thing. It's so small with so little mass, it's more like an on/off switch. (BTW, it's VERY heavy - the heaviest I've felt since my old 68 Mustang with a racing clutch).

    FWIW, the Stradale with the stock exhaust and the 360 with any exhuast have little in common with each other sound wise IMO. The sound of the CGT "on video clips" and outside the car is awesome. However, the tones of that sound are greatly diminished inside the car - to the point of completely being unimpressed when the top is on. The Stradale sounds awesome inside the car where "I" can here it. What good is the sound to me if only those on the outside can enjoy it?

    "but i accept that as the price you pay for a limited purpose vehicle."

    Call it unreal expectations, but I thought I was buying the supercar for the street with the way the car has been marketed. I didn't intend to pay those dollars for a limited purpose vehicle so I would have to go buy a couple others to suppliment it. There are other VERY great track cars for a fraction of those dollars if a limited purpose track vehicle had been the goal. I guess I wanted it all: a monster with bullet proof reliability that could comfortably be driven on the street.

    This car is probably perfect for many buying it and if anyone is truly considering one, I strongly encourage you to try and get some seat time instead of going strictly by any opinions I express here. We all have different needs and wants and only you will know if it scratches your itch(es).

    Re: Carrera GT - good news and bad news

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    However, the tones of that sound are greatly diminished inside the car - to the point of completely being unimpressed when the top is on.



    Ben,
    What does it sound like when the top is off? Do you hear any of the gorgeous exhaust sound or is it all engine sound? If all you hear is engine sound, it's a travesty that bystanders get to enjoy the superb exhaust howl when the driver is the one who is hard at work inside the car.

    Is it true what Mr. Been said in Evo Magazine about the V10 engine sound being monotone from idle to redline compared to the McLaren's V12 (or the Stradale's V8)? I think I know the answer to this one but I have to ask?

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    RC said:

    To get back to the clutch: yes, it isn't easy but you get adapted to it very fast. I had no problems after trying a few times and only at the beginning, the engine stalled ONCE. Stop'n go in a Carrera GT might not be fun but have you tried a GT3 MkII or GT2 MkII? No fun either, especially because of the force you need to press the clutch.
    Maybe I could give you another example (and this doesn't have to do with driver skills but driver "sensibility"): I can move my 997 Carrera S from standstill with less than 1000-1200 rpm. My wife can't do it without stalling the engine or using at least 2500 rpm. And a good friend who has the international C license and sometimes drives in his old modified M3 E36 on the track stalls my 997 if he uses less than 2000 rpm.
    Some people are more "nervous", some people are calm and have a less nervous throttle and clutch foot.
    Of course "nervous" drivers are sometimes less "fortunate" compared to "calm" drivers because they do more driving mistakes. Especially on the track you can analyze people pretty well and their driving style also says a lot about their psychological profile.
    A good driver not only knows has goo driving skills but also knows his limitations. A good driver also tries to stay calm and analyzes driving situations like a computer with his brain, not his stomach. But of course there are also passionate drivers who drive very good but usually these drivers are also those with the most accidents, crashes, etc.



    You are right Christian!
    On my GT3 the clutch is really hard and at the beginning I had difficulties. Now that I got used I don't have difficulties at all and I can move the car with all ranges of rpm. Honestly, I can't understand how one person can't adapt after time to a clutch, its just a question of "technique", like everything!

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:

    Call it unreal expectations, but I thought I was buying the supercar for the street with the way the car has been marketed. I didn't intend to pay those dollars for a limited purpose vehicle so I would have to go buy a couple others to suppliment it. There are other VERY great track cars for a fraction of those dollars if a limited purpose track vehicle had been the goal. I guess I wanted it all: a monster with bullet proof reliability that could comfortably be driven on the street.




    Thanks for your description ben. Regarding above, perhaps that will be the 998.
    The clip i referred to was one of the first online showing a CGT pulling into a parking lot where some people got to look at it and film it. Then the car went back out to the street and accelerated away like a slot car and the sound was something out of a scifi movie. In that video the driver moves the car away from a stop at least 3 times without noticeable sound or effort. I guess i will have to see it move in person.
    Tom

    Re: Carrera GT - good news and bad news

    "What does it sound like when the top is off? Do you hear any of the gorgeous exhaust sound or is it all engine sound? If all you hear is engine sound,"

    It sounds much closer to the outside sound inside with the top off.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    ben, first I want to apologize for my assumption, maybe you're just very young at heart.
    Regarding the other stuff: I never get a hard on with a car, no matter how much I enjoy a vehicle. I also don't name vehicles using fancy names (like some people do), I don't wash and polish it every day (I actually only polish my cars before I want to sell them... ) and of course the 997 Carrera S provides a lot of fun but not even close to good...well, you know what I mean.

    Regarding the 997 Carrera S, now that you mention it: the "official" Porsche time for the Nordschleife is 7 min. 59 seconds (997 Carrera S with 20 mm chassis/LSD), it has to be seen in autumn how SPORT AUTO and Horst von Saurma do. But the Challenge Stradale did a 7 min. 56 sec. time, only 3 seconds faster with semi-slicks, much more power and less weight. Interesting, isn't it? Even if the Challenge Stradale would be 3 seconds faster, the Nordschleife is a track which is more than 20 km long. So for half the price, the 997 Carrera S doesn't perform too bad. And I can even take my family with me or put two large Samsonites in the rear.

    The driver isn't on display in a Ferrari? Maybe if you choose the special order colour "invisibile"...

    And now peace man, just relax and enjoy your car.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    racerx said:
    Hey RC, could you rustle up a few CGT owners who are happy with their purchase and who don't work for PAG?




    Yes, I could. BTW: Mr. Piech doesn't work for Porsche. And he is the kind of guy who could have had any car, including the Ferrari Enzo.
    The "problem" with the Carrera GT is a simple one: it is a driving machine and it is indeed challenging. Porsche tried to make is somehow street capable but it is still a slightly tamed race car and a lot of owners thought this is just the Porsche version of a Lamborghini Murcielago or Ferrari Challenge Stradale. It isn't. I remember a lot of people who were very interested in production numbers, even more than they were interested in performance figures.
    Porsche did three mistakes with the CGT:
    1. they should have installed a sequential shifting system
    2. they should have offered a comfort and club sport version, one with a PASM-like suspension (maybe even height adaptable) and one with a real sports chassis
    3. they should have built maximum 911 cars (sounds cool, ehh? )

    Look at the Ferrari Enzo: a friend from London told me that he met Rod Stewart in his Enzo and he was driving like his grandmother, even worse. One of our moderators blew away an Enzo in his 360 Modena on the track (talking of driver skills). And somebody I know reported a ridiculous performance of a german Enzo owner on a track in Austria.
    How many Enzo owners actually really drive their cars? And with driving I don't mean some nice weekend trips with the local Ferrari Club but REAL sporty driving, maybe on the track?!

    But it can be the other way around too: I know a guy who cancelled his Carrera GT order a while ago because he decided it is too expensive and he can have two or three toys for the price of one. This guy has won various professional races in the past, so he knows how to drive and to adapt. I can't blame him, he works hard for his money and half a million Euro is a lot of money for him.
    My dealer also decided to pass on the CGT and get a GT2 MkII instead, I can't blame him either.
    To be happy with a car, it has to meet your expectations. The CGT is too perfect, too refined and too sporty to meet all expectations. The only true competitor for the CGT is the Enzo and I didn't hear too many things about the Enzo yet, maybe because it is a very seldom car.
    Are Enzo drivers (not owners!) happy with the Enzo? You tell me because I don't know.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    I don't see a problem RC, with the Stradale, if Ben is having more fun in the car than he would in any 911 (speculation). One thing I learned from buying a lot of German products is that they are very well balanced between all the traits that deem a product a good one. For some, the balance isn't always what they would want.

    Far as the Elise, it was fun this morning, kicking Boxster butt at the DE this morning. RC may have avoided this discussion earlier, because he doesn't want to say the Boxster isn't a real Porsche. Not a 911, but what do you expect for $40K? Not the fastest car out there obviously, but didn't bother me in the least.

    Anyway, I don't see a problem with buying what you like to drive and what makes you happy. This doesn't make Ferrari drivers pansies or whatever you want to call them.

    Ben,
    There was a 360 Challenge (not road legal) this morning running with a supertrapp to keep the sound levels down. Wasn't very loud at all. The Elise is doing fairly well, but the car behaves interestingly once the cam change over occurs. Somewhat of a design flaw in tighter corners. Best advised to keep the revs up, if you like this kind of driving.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    Justin said:
    Anyway, I don't see a problem with buying what you like to drive and what makes you happy. This doesn't make Ferrari drivers pansies or whatever you want to call them.



    I fully agree and I don't understand where you get the pansies idea from, maybe I should brush up my English skills. This is actually my best excuse: language.
    Our co-editor CR owns a Ferrari too, I was invited to the Ferrari Days in Baden Baden last year and I also recently participated at a mixed Porsche-Ferrari drivers event.
    I would own a Ferrari too if I would have the money to own more than one sportscar but with two Porsche and two AMG Mercedes, my car "budget" is dry as the Gobi desert.
    I think owning a Porsche AND a Ferrari at the same time is sportscar heaven. But if I have to set priorities, I opt for Porsche because driving is the most important thing for me. And this is where Porsche really rocks.

    I wish we guys would meet somewhere and enjoy our nice cars together on a track or just for fun. I'm pretty sure that we would understand each other much better.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    RC I agree with your three points and I would add one additional point. I find it incredible that Porsche would loaned a CGT to Jay Leno to test drive who has never owned a Porsche before while not allowing buyers who put up their hard earned money to test drive the car. My god, J. Leno did not put down any deposit for the privilege!

    Many of the buyers went to Leiptzig for a ride on a race track with the car being driven by a pfofessional driver. How difficult would it have been for Porsche to allow these buyers to drive the car while in Leiptzig? I suspect Porsche was well aware of the issues addressed here and chose not do run the risk of cancelled sales.

    Regarding the exhaust what makes the CGT so fabulous sounding is what you hear is the engine and not necessarily the exhaust. However as Ben indicated while not in acceleration the car sound very muted and ordinary. My Ferrari has a growl while going under bridges and Ben and I commented the CGT sound whimpy unless being accelerated.

    "Zen and the Art of Driving"

    Quote:
    RC said:
    To get back to the clutch: yes, it isn't easy but you get adapted to it very fast. I had no problems after trying a few times and only at the beginning, the engine stalled ONCE. Stop'n go in a Carrera GT might not be fun but have you tried a GT3 MkII or GT2 MkII? No fun either, especially because of the force you need to press the clutch.
    Maybe I could give you another example (and this doesn't have to do with driver skills but driver "sensibility"): I can move my 997 Carrera S from standstill with less than 1000-1200 rpm. My wife can't do it without stalling the engine or using at least 2500 rpm. And a good friend who has the international C license and sometimes drives in his old modified M3 E36 on the track stalls my 997 if he uses less than 2000 rpm.
    Some people are more "nervous", some people are calm and have a less nervous throttle and clutch foot.
    Of course "nervous" drivers are sometimes less "fortunate" compared to "calm" drivers because they do more driving mistakes. Especially on the track you can analyze people pretty well and their driving style also says a lot about their psychological profile.
    A good driver not only knows has goo driving skills but also knows his limitations. A good driver also tries to stay calm and analyzes driving situations like a computer with his brain, not his stomach. But of course there are also passionate drivers who drive very good but usually these drivers are also those with the most accidents, crashes, etc.



    I agree totally with you Christian. It is all about self confidence. If you have to think about it then you will flub the start. It just has to happen without thinking. Once you are at that point you can easily start off at 1500 RPM every time. But the moment you start to think about it you will bog the throttle and make a poor start or even stall the engine. It is a lot like every other part of driving a car. Maybe someone should write a book ... "Zen and the Art of Driving". Hahahahah

    But one question for you. Why is it such a bad thing that the acceleration times for the CGT are worse than the Enzo? Surely it is what it is. This is a competitive world. If Ferrari happens to have made a better car in the Enzo than Porsche has made in the CGT then surely they should reap the reward and that is the way it is meant to be.

    Stephen

    Re: "Zen and the Art of Driving"

    One of these days European posters will give some credence to what U.S. drivers have to say. I do not know whether European drivers are better but I do know U.S. driver know what their needs are and their limitations.

    Ben was committed to the CGT. When we drove it together there was no doubt in my mind Ben was determined to like it and over look some of the negatives about. Alas that was not meant to be.

    I find it interesting EVERY reviewer has commented on the finicky nature of the clutch and yet European posters and Porsche seem to feel we are all crazy and nothing is wrong with it. Porsche head in the sand approach has caused it considerable loss of sales and European drivers have loss considerable credibility since none of them have driven the car any yet tell us we do not have confidence or skill to drive the car.

    Re: "Zen and the Art of Driving"

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    ... and yet European posters and Porsche seem to feel we are all crazy and nothing is wrong with it.



    Nick may be onto something here about the difference in perspective between European and American drivers.

    If I recall correctly, Davey Allison commented that he thought the 1974 911/RS was "an overpowered German Corvair" while being interviewed during the very first International Race of Champions. It was not meant as a compliment

    Re: "Zen and the Art of Driving"

    Quote:
    nberry said:...I do not know whether European drivers are better but I do know U.S. driver know what their needs are and their limitations...




    Have you considered that all Europeans learn to drive stick and most Americans learn on auto trannys?

    Also... most Europeans learn to drive stick, smack in the middle of very congested stop-and-go urban traffic.

    Re: "Zen and the Art of Driving"

    Nick, interesting that you tag this as a reply to my own post.

    Is it a North America vs. Europe thing? I think we've all seen the comments of the European magazines to the clutch. Many have complained. So it isn't just a North America thing. But I do think that the North Americans are the ones being loudest in their complaints and the ones who are pointing specifically at the car as the problem.

    What I see is that everyone is taking this very personally. And I think that this is not a great direction for us to be going in.

    Stephen

    Re: "Zen and the Art of Driving"

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:
    But one question for you. Why is it such a bad thing that the acceleration times for the CGT are worse than the Enzo? Surely it is what it is. This is a competitive world. If Ferrari happens to have made a better car in the Enzo than Porsche has made in the CGT then surely they should reap the reward and that is the way it is meant to be.



    Stephen, that's a pretty good question.
    Maybe I just pay too much attention to what people say who I meet or who are friends. I know that some Carrera GT customers expect the maximum possible performance and of course they deserve that at this price tag.
    But I also told people who are interested buying a CGT that they're buying a complete package, not only straight line performance. If I want to be Autobahn King, I would probably buy a Porsche 996 Turbo, invest another 150000 Euro in heavy mods up to 700 HP and I probably get the same straight line performance like the Enzo and probably a higher top end speed.
    I always found it fascinating that Porsche achieves pretty fascinating track performance figures without excessive power. My 997 Carrera S is the best example and I'm pretty sure that the upcoming 997 Turbo will bring a lot of surprises.

    If I could choose between the CGT, the SLR and the Enzo, I surely would opt for the CGT. Not because I'm a Porsche addict but because I care about driving itself and I'm also convinced that Porsche engineers do a great job to make high performance cars somehow "easy" to drive fast and at the same time safe. I think you understand what I mean by the word "easy", maybe I should use the more appropriate word "effortless".
    Porsche has to raise power on their cars, no doubt about it. But not because their cars are slow but because of such comparison tests where readers are actually misled by performance numbers. Again my 997 Carrera S is the best example: I own it now for several weeks and I didn't encounter one single car yet to be faster. Not even on the Autobahn. So power is important, of course but it isn't the most important thing. The overall setup and the fun factor count much more. Look at the SL 65 AMG, I'm pretty sure that at speeds over 200 kph, even the GT2 stands no chance.
    But is it really fun to drive? I don't know.

    Re: "Zen and the Art of Driving"

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:

    What I see is that everyone is taking this very personally. And I think that this is not a great direction for us to be going in.

    Stephen



    It's bound to get personal when the implication is "Hey, if you're having trouble with the CGT clutch, you can't drive." Too many good drivers, including professionals, are having trouble for that theory to hold water.

    Gary

    Re: "Zen and the Art of Driving"

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    If I recall correctly, Davey Allison commented that he thought the 1974 911/RS was "an overpowered German Corvair" while being interviewed during the very first International Race of Champions. It was not meant as a compliment



    I'd like to hear Jeff Gordon's comments on a 2004 911 GT3RS or 911 GT3RSR to see if anything has changed. I read he owned a 996 Turbo among others. Then he got divorced. I wonder if he kept the Turbo.

    I'd also like Mario Andretti to give the CGT a thorough road and track evaluation. Mario, in Road and Track's test, was the first and only person I know of to expose the McLaren F1's instability over 200 mph. I wonder if it's due to its high ground clearance and the soft anti-roll bar setup.

    Re: "Zen and the Art of Driving"

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:
    Nick, interesting that you tag this as a reply to my own post.

    Is it a North America vs. Europe thing? I think we've all seen the comments of the European magazines to the clutch. Many have complained. So it isn't just a North America thing. But I do think that the North Americans are the ones being loudest in their complaints and the ones who are pointing specifically at the car as the problem.

    What I see is that everyone is taking this very personally. And I think that this is not a great direction for us to be going in.

    Stephen



    My comments were directed at you. Sometimes it becomes exasperating to us US drivers that we are not given any credit regarding knowledge and driving cars.

    The chairman of VW Pischetsrieder was recently interviewed and asked about the Enzo he owns. Here is his response;

    The Enzo at maximum speed drives like a sport sedan at 120mph. It's by far the best car on the market in terms of aerodynamics.On a winding mountain road, its maybe too big--a Lotus Elise is best for that--but it's still fabulous.

    Now review what ben and I wrote regarding the CGT. My point is when someone who knows cars is asked about a performance car he responded almost identical to what Ben and I wrote.
    Give us some credit. We are not totally clueless or without ability when it comes to cars.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Regarding the exhaust what makes the CGT so fabulous sounding is what you hear is the engine and not necessarily the exhaust. However as Ben indicated while not in acceleration the car sound very muted and ordinary. My Ferrari has a growl while going under bridges and Ben and I commented the CGT sound whimpy unless being accelerated.



    I don't know Nick. I went to the store yesterday afternoon and on the way home there was a 355 next to me. I of course rolled down my window to listen and i could not believe how quiet and weak it sounded even as the driver pulled slowly away. The only ferrari sounds that i have heard that are special have been the 360 under hard acceleration and the maranello sounds pretty good at idle. Most new cars have had their exhaust tamed beyond belief including the gallardo and murci that i have heard. Forgive the broken record sound but you can't beat a large V8 like the 928. Perhaps this is why the aftermarket exhaust industry is so large. Is there anything available for the CGT yet, anyone dare?
    Tom

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I find it incredible that Porsche would loan a CGT to Jay Leno to test drive who has never owned a Porsche before while not allowing buyers who put up their hard earned money to test drive the car. My god, J. Leno did not put down any deposit for the privilege!



    Nick,

    As WM88 has speculated, manufacturers may be starting to consider Leno as member of the press since he writes several guest columns and articles in magazines. With his new status, he is eligible to drive the red CGT press car seen in pictures. We know he has ordered one. What color did he order and did he put down a deposit? We don't know.
    In his case, Porsche doesn't need a deposit since they know it's highly unlikely he is going to cancel his order.

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Many of the buyers went to Leiptzig for a ride on a race track with the car being driven by a pfofessional driver. How difficult would it have been for Porsche to allow these buyers to drive the car while in Leiptzig? I suspect Porsche was well aware of the issues addressed here and chose not do run the risk of cancelled sales.



    I think you're correct. If they allowed them to drive it, it would have been a repeat of the press days when Porsche was allowing journalists to test drive it. Many of the journalists stalled the car and a few even crashed it by being careless. Some of the customers being given access to a CGT they do not own would have produced the same results and, at the end of the day, cancelled their orders. Porsche refused to take the risk and I don't blame them.

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Regarding the exhaust what makes the CGT so fabulous sounding is what you hear is the engine and not necessarily the exhaust. However as Ben indicated while not in acceleration the car sound very muted and ordinary. My Ferrari has a growl while going under bridges and Ben and I commented the CGT sounded whimpy unless being accelerated.



    From listening to the official Leipzig Porsche, Top Gear, other Press, and amateur videos, in addition to hearing the car in person being revved in neutral, I was under the impression that the engine and exhaust sounds are separate.

    Also, as you have said, I too was disappointed and amazed that the car is so muted and smooth during startup and at idle. Very unexpected from a "Le Mans engine." I blame Euro sound regulations and Porsche's obsession with refinement. But as soon as you rev the car in neutral, the smooth exhaust sound, which gets louder the higher you rev it, completely drowns out the engine sound and mesmerizes any listener standing outside the car.

    I was disappointed with the starter sound in person. From the Dutch (I think it's Dutch) streaming video and another video posted on racingflix.com (car was inside the paddock garage), the starter sound was incredibly rich, probably because they had a microphone close to the engine in the former and the sound relfection from the walls in the latter. In person, standing outside the car on the street in an open air environment, listening to the starter engage was disappointing. It sounded tinny and muted. Not at all what I expected.

    Does your Ferrari growl even when not under acceleration? When it's coasting? Strange. That doesn't make sense unless it is engine braking in a lower gear. I don't know of any car that growls while it coasts in a high gear with zero throttle applied (back-firing doesn't count ). If it does, I would love to hear it in person.

    Re: Carrera GT - some good news but also some bad news

    Quote:
    racerx said:
    I don't know Nick. I went to the store yesterday afternoon and on the way home there was a 355 next to me. I of course rolled down my window to listen and i could not believe how quiet and weak it sounded even as the driver pulled slowly away. The only ferrari sounds that i have heard that are special have been the 360 under hard acceleration and the maranello sounds pretty good at idle. Most new cars have had their exhaust tamed beyond belief including the gallardo and murci that i have heard.



    Racerx,

    The 355 only sounds good above approx. 5000 rpm. Below that, your experience is the same as mine--disappointingly tame. But, at 5000 and above, the metallic symphony heard is enough to convince anyone to condone the notorious Ferrari temperament. If you want an example, go to racingflix.com and download the video of the Japanese fellow driving the 355 in the city or even the video of the 355 on the dyno. I was fortunate to have been given a ride in a fly yellow 355 spider a few years ago. As soon as I heard that superb V8 scream and howl in a crescendo , I was utterly seduced and addicted. This is why I object to Ferrari depriving us of a 9000 or even 10000 rpm redline. Having the crescendo halted at a mere 8500 rpm's is a travesty especially when S2000's manage 9000 rpm and GT3's 8200 rpm.

    Re: "Zen and the Art of Driving"

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    [The Enzo at maximum speed drives like a sport sedan at 120mph. It's by far the best car on the market in terms of aerodynamics.On a winding mountain road, its maybe too big--a Lotus Elise is best for that--but it's still fabulous.




    Isn't this the same guy who crashed a McLaren F1? Many people made fun of him when this happened for various reasons. I doubt that Pischetsrieder is a good source for car reviews but this would take too long to argue about.

    I have a few personal "problems" with the Enzo, a few things remain unanswered:
    1. how capable is the Enzo on the track, especially on the Nordschleife (it makes a difference if the track is 1.6 km or 20.1 km long)?
    2. does Ferrari actually earn money with the Enzo production?
    3. does somebody have first hand experience with driving an Enzo (I was looking for reports but can't find any reliable?)

    Nick, I agree with you that Porsche should let potential buyers/customers testdrive the CGT. But a short testdrive would probably make some customers cancel their orders. And can Porsche afford to allow a several hours testdrive? With the risk of getting back a crashed car? Don't forget that many customers come from outside Germany, usually for a day or two and they don't have any experience driving on teh Autobahn or on german streets. It needs a day or two to adapt and most visitors in Leipzig don't have the time.

    I still think a sequential shifting and adaptive chassis would have helped a lot. But of course Porsche wanted to offer customers a pure sports car, even without traction control at the beginning of development. Too sporty sometimes means too annoying, too difficult to drive, to stressful, too much to worry about for such big money, etc.
    I understand that. But I doubt that the Ferrari Enzo is an easy ride at the limit and I also bet that people who make claims like Pischetsrieder don't have a clue about real sporty driving. I talked to several Porsche engineers about the CGT, Enzo and SLR and they all said that the Enzo is the only real competitor for the CGT. They also told me that the CGT is much easier to control at the limit than the Enzo and they should know it: they tested one for comparison.

    Ego

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    My comments were directed at you. Sometimes it becomes exasperating to us US drivers that we are not given any credit regarding knowledge and driving cars.




    Well Nick, since you have made this so pointed I might as well respond directly to what you have to say. I've been trying not to.

    As you know, I have lots of experience driving the streets of both North America and Europe. I do think conditions in North America are generally a lot less challenging for a variety of reasons.

    But I don't think that's it. I think experience in Europe vs. North America makes some difference but not a lot. If someone is talented then they are talented and can drive just about anything anywhere.

    What I think is that the qualification for buying, owning and driving a CGT is money. And money does not make one a better driver. I think many drivers who are considering the CGT are mediocre drivers at best. We have all seen rich mediocre drivers with nice cars at places like Nürburgring going very slowly. But who cares? So long as they stay within their abilities (and fear usually guarantees that) then why shouldn't they enjoy their wealth? They earned it after all.

    But the clutch issue on the CGT is different. A mediocre driver cannot fudge the clutch issue. If he continuously stalls the car then it is totally obvious to him and to others. And therein lies the problem. It is all about ego. These are people who have been successful all of their lives and cannot stand to be anything but the best at what they choose to do.

    So I've never driven a CGT. I doubt anyone is ever going to let me drive one. I don't have the resources to buy one. I have no clue where I fit within the scheme of things. Maybe I'm a mediocre driver too? I do know that if I were able to drive one well it would take me a long time to get comfortable in it and I'm sure I would be stalling it a lot at least to begin with. But you know what, I can live with that and if by chance I did get my hands on a CGT and I couldn't drive it then I wouldn't go blaming the car.

    The plain fact is, there are some drivers out there who can drive the CGT well and can drive it quickly and do not flub the start. As long as there are some out there that can then it is a matter of skill and the car is not inherently undrivable. I agree with those who say that the car's edginess should not be toned down. This is not a car designed for the mediocre driver. Instead, those drivers need to look at other cars. And what's wrong with that?

    Stephen

    Re: Ego

    Stephen I would agree with everthing you write except for one point. Porsche marketed this car to the public representing it as an every day car. It is not.

    BTW the first several times I used the clutch I did not stall it. However it required concentration, focus and determination not to stall or give higher revvs than was required. Once you thought you had it, as Ben said, like a switch it turned off and stalled. You swear you did not do anything different.

    RC for balance I know an individual who owns a CGT and was prepared to buy a Enzo. However when he took it for a test drive he found the road noise to loud and decided against it.

     
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