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    Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Just had a little chat with somebody who was involved in Cayenne engine development through a supplier company. When I heard what he told me, I had a shock. Actually, I'm not sure if I can believe it but the guy is pretty reliable and his information seems to be accurate. Please be aware that this is not confirmed information but due to his job, I think he knows what he's talking about.
    I just repeat what this guy told me, you have the freedom to make your own thoughts out of it. Here we go:
    he insists that the Cayenne Turbo engine is practically the same engine used by Audi in the RS6, just used and modified by Porsche, not a 100% new Porsche development as they state in some of their ads. He also says that around 70% of the parts between both engines (Audi RS6 and Cayenne Turbo) are the same, it seems that even the Audi part numbers are stil there on the parts. What has been modified by Porsche is mostly the capacity of the engine, the cylindre head and the air intake system. The Garrett turbo chargers have been used instead of the KKK chargers because of available space. The motronic 7.1.1 software is also mostly programmed by Audi, Porsche apparently forgot to remove the Audi part number when they reprogrammed it. What Porsche has changed was mostly the E-gas setup and the sound setup. Another proof seems to be the integration of the Audi logic into the Porsche System Tester 2, where you can choose "MotorsteuerungV8/Audi, MotorsteuerungV6/VW, Niveauregulierung/VW, Tiptronic/Audi, Klimanalage/Audi,etc." Now what does Audi have to do with the Porsche System Tester? And even comparing the motronic software of the Cayenne Turbo and RS6 indicates the same source, too many similarities, like a "finger print" as engine ECU programmers say.

    I could give even more examples but I don't want to unveil this source. If true, I would be very very disappointed with Porsche. Using a VW engine for the Cayenne V6 is one thing but using an Audi engine on their Cayenne Turbo would be disgusting. I try to find out if this is true but I'm afraid it won't be easy.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines made by Audi?

    RC, whats wrong with Audi? Apart from the fact that they aren't that good due to their cars, but they have fantastic build quality, but whats wrong with their engines? Am I missing something here?

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines made by Audi?

    I wouldn't be surprise if Porsche has done this I hope this is not true but according to what you said RC the source is reliable.

    Can one tell the similarities by looking at the engine blocks or it is not that obvious?

    I'm going to stop by the Porsche/Audi (They're together) dealership tomorrow and see if I can find some similarities on part numbers and so forth.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines made by Audi?

    Quote:
    RC, whats wrong with Audi? Apart from the fact that they aren't that good due to their cars, but they have fantastic build quality, but whats wrong with their engines? Am I missing something here?



    If I buy a Porsche, I want a 100% Porsche engine in it. Or would you buy a Ferrari with a Fiat engine?
    Talking about Audi: tell me the difference between Audi and VW. And if VW is on the same level as Porsche, I don't need to buy a Cayenne. I'm not naive and I know that the Cayenne is much closer to the Touareg than most people know (or admit) but I'd like Porsche to play with open cards. Customers aren't stupid.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines made by Audi?

    i can say, that porsche engines are made by porsche mechanics!!!! they are not delvered by a truck or smething else!!!!! i dont think, that audi engines are bad, they have a good quality...

    VW and Porsche have a close work in all his parts...

    not only the engine!!

    the BOSS is from vw, why do you wonder??

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines made by Audi?

    Quote:
    i can say, that porsche engines are made by porsche mechanics!!!! they are not delivered by a truck or something else!!!!!



    But what about the parts? What about the engine development or engine concept? Porsche claims the V8 engine is a 100% Porsche development. Is it true or not?
    The more I find out about the Cayenne, the more I think that it is a goldmine for Porsche and shareholders.
    Don't get me wrong: I'll still take delivery of my Cayenne Turbo, even with an Audi engine but I want to know the truth. Nothing more and nothing less. However I have to admit that I'm a little bit disappointed if true. I accepted the body, drivetrain, tranny, etc. to be "borrowed" but the engine is a different story.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines made by Audi?

    I would like to say that there is so much in print about the development of the engine including pictures and videos that your reporting this "rumour" without first approaching Porsche for comment is irresponsible.

    You have openly called Porsche liars.

    I think this makes this board look foolish

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines made by Audi?

    Quote:
    You have openly called Porsche liars.

    I think this makes this board look foolish



    Mick,
    I think you are misinterpreting what RC said.

    First off, he DID say that this is not %100 confirmed secondly in the text it was mentioned:

    Quote:
    he insists that the Cayenne Turbo engine is practically the same engine used by Audi in the RS6, just used and modified by Porsche, not a 100% new Porsche development as they state in some of their ads.



    I personally hope that Porsche has not done such thing 'cause this action would truly IMO discredit the company as a whole.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines made by Audi?

    i know what you mean, but i cant say anything, im not working at the engine parts, sorry, but it can be possible!!!!

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines made by Audi?

    I hear what you say Ron, but I just think allegations this serious should have been checked out first or else we just end up fueling the trolls.

    I to hope they are not true especially since porsche's own book details porsche design of the engine. Especially the oil system designed for off road use, not really RS6 country.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines made by Audi?

    Can we now say that race on Sunday, sell on Monday? After all Audi R8 has won all the races for the last few years. I guess Porsche will say that they have 3 more LeMans wins, all in a row. If what you have told us is true RC, then why would we ever believe them in the future. How many times have they lied in the past? I will now go tell all the Porsche fans that Porsche is racing again...

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    This just seems silly on it's surface. I am out of town right now and do not have access to reference materials but there is a ton of information on Porsche's development and manufacture of this motor. I will comment more on this in a couple of days.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Now I know, why Wiedenking says, that they will not use a VW/Audi Diesel engine for the Cayenne. Porsche will use it's own Porsche Diesel engine, which is in real a Audi V8 TDI

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Well, I don't know if its true or not, but I think we should talk about it, thats what the forum is for, and like RC said, its not comfirmed and we should try to get to the bottom of it and find out the answer, thats the best way to quiet the rumors that are out there if its not true.

    Fortunately there is no censorship here. And lets not be naive, Porsche is a bussiness and they can lie like everybody else if its in their interest and think they can get away with it, it wouldn't be the first time. But I hope this is not one, I for one am very intrigued.

    Whats interesting is that the Audi Pikes Peak will have a 500HP 4.2L twin turbo V8 from the RS6 too. Also uses the same Tuareg platform I think. Would be a good deal for the three brands if its true: only one vehicle R&D costs, and three manufacturers make it look different on the outside and stamp their badge on it. Its like the Seat/VW/Audi/Skoda hatchbacks.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines made by Audi?

    Quote:
    I would like to say that there is so much in print about the development of the engine including pictures and videos that your reporting this "rumour" without first approaching Porsche for comment is irresponsible.

    You have openly called Porsche liars.

    I think this makes this board look foolish



    Mick, I know that my English isn't too good but I thought these words (I quote my own words now) were pretty clear:
    Quote:
    Please be aware that this is not confirmed information but due to his job, I think he knows what he's talking about.
    I just repeat what this guy told me, you have the freedom to make your own thoughts out of it.



    However I'm not sure why we shouldn't discuss this here on the forum? It is indeed strange that a lot of technical specs speak for an Audi engine. It is strange that a lot of Audi logic has been implemented into the PST2. And it is even more strange that the Audi part numbers (4D1907558 or 4D1907558D) are still in the software code(!) of the ME 7.1.1 engine control unit software. I could give more details but as I said, I don't want to unveil the source.

    Why do you think this is impossible? Porsche uses a modified VW V6 engine on the Cayenne. And last but not least: have a look at the engine drawings from the RS6 and Cayenne Turbo and you'll have the suprise of your life. Co-incidence? Possible. But as mature and responsible customers, we should discuss it. If not true, the better, I wouldn't be happier with a Cayenne Turbo coming around march 2004.

    And a last word: if you have arguments against what this guy said, come up with them. I'm willing to listen to them.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Quote:
    This just seems silly on it's surface. I am out of town right now and do not have access to reference materials but there is a ton of information on Porsche's development and manufacture of this motor. I will comment more on this in a couple of days.



    Gary, I didn't say that the engine is manufactured by Audi, nor did it the person I quoted with what he said.
    And of course Porsche can provide tons of information about something but this doesn't mean much. Even now most customers don't have a clue about the difference between the 996 C2/C4/C4S/Targa engine compared to the 996 GT3/GT2/Turbo engine. And some even don't know that the fantastic Tiptronic on their 996 is actually a fantastic Mercedes auto tranny. Did you also notice any similarity between the 996 A/C climate control unit and the one on specific Audi models. Isn't the climate compressor from the VW Passat? C'mon Gary, you still believe in Santa Claus?
    I own Porsche cars for many years now and I know how the "game" works. Porsche has to keep production cost low, otherwise they couldn't keep up with the "big ones". There is nothing wrong in doing that but when it comes to engines, I'm a little bit "touchy".

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    RC,

    I am not saying that these things should not be discussed and your english is just fine, the point I am trying to make is that if this was a newspaper and the article was not true then a slander law suit would be taken out by the people you are slandering, in this case Porsche.

    I and others take this very seriously (as do you), I just feel that some checking might have been appropriate. You could have solicitated help using PM's to others around the world to help you research it.

    As far as we know right now this could be some anti Porsche / Cayenne or Pro Audi / VW TROLL stiring up the pot. I, for one would rather get worked up over proven real issues.

    From the WebSite

    "The free-revving 4.5-liter V8 engine is a totally new design developed exclusively for the Cayenne"

    See what I mean

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    By the way talking about the Motronic is like saying its got an Intel Chip in it, thats a third party platform that many use and program themselves.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Quote:
    By the way talking about the Motronic is like saying its got an Intel Chip in it, thats a third party platform that many use and program themselves.



    Mick, you don't have a clue about engine software programming, do you?
    I try to explain it in a very simple way: there are certain parameters in the engine software which are each adapted to certain functions like ignition, boost pressure, fuel pressure, etc. Two different engines don't have one single parameter in common, this wouldn't make sense. It is like running Windows on a Linux machine, even more difficult. It doesn't have anything to do with the processor. You can run various software versions on the same processor platform but you don't really want to tell me that Linux, Windows and BeOS have really something in common?
    By "accident" ( ), the RS6 engine software has a lot of parameters in common with the Cayenne Turbo engine software. Now this is like discovering Windows source code in a Linux distribution. Impossible. And furthermore, the software has a certain part number to know which version has been programmed. Now what a co-incidence that we just discovered that Linux has a Windows XP build in it.
    Of course it doesn't say anything if the software in the Cayenne Turbo motronic has an Audi part number embedded in it, they just forgot to remove it, right?
    Oh, but the ME 7.1.1 is made by Bosch, so what does the Audi part number do in the Cayenne Turbo motronic. And furthermore, the RS6 uses a ME 7.1.1 too, another co-incidence, right? It is funny that neither the 996 C2/C4/etc. nor the GT3/G2/996 Turbo or even the CGT use a ME 7.1.1.
    But what co-incidence...the Touareg V8 uses a ME 7.1.1.

    C'mon Mick, I really don't understand why you are that surprised? Porsche always had close ties to VW and Audi, this is nothing new. I'm only a little bit surprised to learn that the Cayenne V8 engine might actually be an Audi development and not a 100% Porsche development, nothing more and nothing less. I'll still love my Cayenne Turbo but a little disappointment should be allowed.
    I really don't understand why a discussion about the provenience of the Cayenne V8 engine shouldn't be allowed.
    If it is a 100% full Porsche development, Porsche has nothing to fear about. And if not, well, they should clarify it.

    BTW: if it wasn't about the press, did you see anywhere a claim from Porsche that the Cayenne V6 engine is an overworked VW engine? Here is Porsche's original statement about the V6 engine:
    Introducing the new Cayenne, Porsche is rounding off its range of Sports Activity Vehicles through the addition of this new, "basic" model. Powered by a sporting V6, the latest Sports Utility in the range offers the same supreme standard of driving dynamics, safety and off-road qualities for which the third Porsche is already acknowledged the world over.
    In its engine output and performance, the Porsche Cayenne, just like its sister models, offers a supreme standard: Maximum output of the six-cylinder power unit at 6000 rpm is 184 kW (250 bhp), maximum torque is 310 Newton-metres (228 lb-ft) from 2500 - 5.500 rpm. Indeed, the torque curve alone is an outstanding symbol of muscular performance, exceeding the mark of 300 Newton-metres (221 lb-ft) just above 2000 rpm and remaining above this limit all the way to 5500 rpm. The performance this means in practice speaks for itself, the Porsche Cayenne accelerating from 0 - 100 km/h in 9.1 seconds, then continuing all the way to its top speed of 214 km/h or 133 mph.
    This superior power and performance rests on a clear and convincing technical foundation. The new six-cylinder is a 24-valve power unit with cylinders at an angle of 150 and two overhead camshafts adjusted both on the intake and outlet sides in a continuous, infinite process using vane-cell adjusters. This engine concept makes the Cayenne a very fuel-efficient vehicle, returning superior fuel economy of less than 12 litres/100 km or more than 23.5 mpg Imp on the road. According to the EU standard, the Cayenne consumes 10.6 litres of fuel for 100 kilometres outside of town (26.6. mpg Imp), composite fuel consumption under the EU standard also including urban motoring amounting to 13.2 litres/100 km (21.4 mpgImp).

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Maybe one of the tuners could throw some light on this - Sportec seem to be experienced in both RS6 and Cayenne, RS Tuning also do electronic tuning for the RS6 and in the process of developing their 550ps package must have gained a thorough knowledge of the Cayenne Turbo engine - RC, are you still on speaking terms ?

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Unfortunately Tuners keep pretty much secrecy about their products. No wonder, they don't want to pass out information to their competitors (and of course Porsche ).
    The guy I talked to also does some work for Tuners, so maybe the information is accurate.
    What really bothers me is the fact that some people here on the forum think that an Audi engine in the Cayenne is impossible. So how a V6 engine from VW is possible?
    Even if the Audi engine is only the basis for the Cayenne V8, it would still be disappointing for me. At the beginning I actually thought that Porsche reviewed their 928 V8 engines and made the Cayenne engine out of it, of course with up-to-date improvements. But the more I think about it, the more the "Audi story" seems to be credible. Sad.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    The Bosch SDK for the Motronic is mostly object oriented and the codebase is common to all. its not uncommon to see odd part numbers all over a compiler as the routines are collected as part of the common product from many sources.

    Code re-use. A V8 is still a V8. They still go bang in a given order.

    Programming is done to order by Bosch or you can do it yourself (ie Tuners)

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Quote:
    It is funny that neither the CGT use a ME 7.1.1.





    Actually the Carrera GT is managed by twin Motronic ME7.1.1 control units, one for each of the two banks of cylinders.



    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Quote:
    Quote:
    This just seems silly on it's surface. I am out of town right now and do not have access to reference materials but there is a ton of information on Porsche's development and manufacture of this motor. I will comment more on this in a couple of days.



    Quote:
    Gary, I didn't say that the engine is manufactured by Audi, nor did it the person I quoted with what he said.




    RC I do not see Gary is using word Audi in his post

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Quote:
    Actually the Carrera GT is managed by twin Motronic ME7.1.1 control units, one for each of the two banks of cylinders.



    They're using just be base units for capacity reason, they don't have much in common with the ME 7.1.1, especially the programming is completely different than on a single ME 7.1.1 unit. They could do that because the CGT isn' turbo charged, so the capacity for the boost pressure, etc. parameters can be used for other parameters.
    The wanted to use the MS 3.1 for the CGT but apparently had problems with emissions, noise, etc. management. So they decided to use two ME 7.1.1 units but again, they have almost nothing in common with the ME 7.1.1 used on the Cayenne.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Quote:
    The Bosch SDK for the Motronic is mostly object oriented and the codebase is common to all. its not uncommon to see odd part numbers all over a compiler as the routines are collected as part of the common product from many sources.

    Code re-use. A V8 is still a V8. They still go bang in a given order.

    Programming is done to order by Bosch or you can do it yourself (ie Tuners)




    So Bosch does the programming for Weissach? Interesting.
    Answer these three questions:
    1. why are the so many similarities in the code and don't start again with that a V8 is a V8 stuff because this is BS.
    2. why is Audi logic code implemented in the PST2 (Porsche System Tester 2 for those who don't know what this means)?
    3. why does the ME 7.1.1 have an Audi identification code and not one from VW (Touareg uses the 7.1.1 too)?

    I really give it up. Reminds me of the AMG discussion where I've been flamed because I claimed that the SL55 can't have a better 0-300 kph performance than the Lamborghini Murcielago or the Porsche GT2.
    Some people love to see what they love to see and I can't do anything about it. I guess I'm going to take a nap.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Given all the press on the Porsche Cayenne V8s, I find it doubtful that this V8 is just a massaged over Audi V8! I would be very VERY surprised if this were the case. One thing that people should remember is that Weissach does tons of developement for other marks. I wouldn't be surprised if this discussion is actually the other way around. Porsche doing contract work for Audi engine developement. I remember a few years back Porsche building a V8 for Mercedes. There were also plenty of rumors about the Audi R8s and Porsche help in this car. I remember reading an article a while back on the Cayenne V8. The V8 was designed for the 4 door Porsche project back in the early 90s. I think Porsche had the V8 engine designed quiet a while back. I have total faith that this Porsche V8 was designed solely in Weissach. I don't see a problem in sharing manufactured parts with Audi, saves money. It would be something else if this motor was designed and tested by Audi . Then sold as an all Porsche designed motor. I doubt this is the case.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Quote:
    I have total faith that this Porsche V8 was designed solely in Weissach. I don't see a problem in sharing manufactured parts with Audi, saves money. It would be something else if this motor was designed and tested by Audi . Then sold as an all Porsche designed motor. I doubt this is the case.



    The RS6 is an engine developped by Audi Motorsport. Porsche had nothing to do with it. Regarding the V8 you mention: it was a Mercedes engine. You're talking about the old E500 manufactured by Porsche in small numbers at Zuffenhausen, right? Porsche never developped a V8 engine for Mercedes.
    Why do you have "total" faith?
    I have an interesting question for you: how much money did Porsche invest in the Cayenne project (including Leipzig facility, engine production in Zuffenhausen, etc)? How much did VW invest in Touareg development and production facilities?
    How can a small company like Porsche develop a completely new third model without help? C'mon. Everybody knows that Porsche had extensive development help from VW because VW has the money and development capacity.
    If you have faith in Weissach, why did they buy the auto tranny from Aisin, a japanese manufacturer (same auto tranny is used in the Touareg)? Why did Porsche sell the Tiptronic on the 996 Turbo (and later on the 996 too), a Mercedes auto tranny, as their "own"? Why is there a difference between the 996 C2/C4/C4S/Targa engine and the GT3/GT2/996 Turbo engine? A difference which actually makes the M96 engine a "bread and butter" engine.

    Sharing parts is no problem to me, it happens all the time in the car industry. But it makes a difference if Porsche claims in their german sales brochure that the Cayenne V8 has been completely new developped from the first pencil line to the last bolt and they actually used the RS6 engine from Audi as a basis for this engine. And even worse: if really almost 70% of the parts are the same, it is no Porsche engine in my eyes, even with a different cylindre head, etc.
    But it doesn't matter if the V8 Turbo engine has 50%, 30% or 70% parts in common with the RS6 engine. I just want to know the truth, nothing more and nothing less. The RS6 engine isn't a bad engine.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Well, see it this way. VolksWagen is VW, Porsche is WW (Wendelin Wiedeking) ... VW-WW See? They do have a "W" in common, that makes them 50% the same

    I am not surprised at all by this finding, if true. In fact, I am surprised that it was not discovered earlier. WW wants to make money and grow Porsche at all costs. He does not care about anything else. I think we will all see the effects of his decision later down the road. I am not optimistic at all regarding Porsche's long term future.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    RC,

    Of course Porsche had help in developing the SUV with VW, it was a joint venture. This is a very interesting topic and a good one. This "rumor" that you are reporting is a very BIG one. Porsche has clearly stated it was an in house motor. You seem to think that your source is a valid one. It might very well be, but I still doubt this RUMOR. That's my opinion and truth will come out now for sure. There are thousands of confidential contracts Weissach does for virtually all car marks and other industries. If they said the motor was designed and tested there I have faith that it was. This would be a huge image disaster if true. I don't think Porsche is a stupid company and this would make them that for sure. They couldn't keep this a secret for long. In any event, the truth shine through.

     
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