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    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    Guys, you can agree or not, thats not the point.

    Fact is: Porsche wasn't under much pressure to introduce DI on the Turbo, even if they love to tell people how much they care about the environment, lower fuel consumption and less emissions.

    Fact is: the new engine saves cost. A LOT of production cost. I can't see any price change for customers, so here we have a Porsche vs. customer 1:0 win situation. At least Porsche could have increased power by at least 50 HP, I doubt that current GT2 owners would have minded.

    Fact is: the straight line performance of the new engine isn't too spectacular, the differences to the old engine are marginal and mostly achived by clever electronics (PDK, sport chrono launch control).

    Fact is: the new engine may be "cleaner" but I doubt that it is very tuning friendly, no matter what Tuners try to tell their customers. Tuners had serious problems to adapt to the VTG technology and I actually heard from a source that Porsche has done a lot of things to make life for tuners less easy, especially on the Turbo.

    Fact is: a new era has started, many here don't even seem to realize it. Some are working for Porsche or Porsche dealerships, others are blind to the actual changes and some never actually cared about the engine too much. Especially 997 Carrera owners could care less and I understand, they actually believed all their ownership life that they actually drive a "good" engine, not the "cheap" one.  I understand this psychology but the truth is: the "Metzger" engine, like somebody called it, wasn't famous for nothing and it is gone now.

    Fact is: I don't care at all that there is a new 997 Turbo around, for various reasons people who know me know very well. I never would have switched and my next Porsche, IF I stay with Porsche, will not be a 911 Turbo, simply because of the family. This is why my comment is not biased at all, I couldn't care less. I'm just sad that another tradition has ended and I'm also very surprised to read that some people seem to welcome this as something good. 

    People who care for the technology and not the brand understand what I mean. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    RC, I understand your basic premise but I cannot share all this crying about this old engine no matter how good it was in its time. There have been many legendary engines in various marques and all have been superseded by newer ones. For example BMW, a company renowned for their good engines bring a new one every year or so and no one misses the old ones.

    It is like saying that BMW should have stayed with the 2.3-2.5 lt 4 cylinder of the original M3 because it was strong and won all the touring car championships of the 80s-early 90s. Or still with BMW, continue to use the strong 1.5lt engine block that won the F1 title because for some people is a legend. They are all gone and remembered only by "Klassic" car fans and sentimentalists.

    I don't think you can find any manufacturer still using an engine designed or originally built in the 90s . Perhaps Bentley use an ancient engine from the 50s because it suits their British traditional image.

    Times change, technology changes, the economics of manufacturing change and most of all customers change.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    Christian, interesting comments.

    BTw, those that compare the 458 with the TT only on price are missing one small item. But for the collapse of the economy, most mid-engine Ferrari's held their value. I suspect the 458 will be selling at a premium over MSRP for a long time. That cannot be said regarding the TT. 


    --

     


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    RC:

    Fact is: a new era has started, many here don't even seem to realize it. Some are working for Porsche or Porsche dealerships, others are blind to the actual changes and some never actually cared about the engine too much. Especially 997 Carrera owners could care less and I understand, they actually believed all their ownership life that they actually drive a "good" engine, not the "cheap" one.  I understand this psychology but the truth is: the "Metzger" engine, like somebody called it, wasn't famous for nothing and it is gone now.

    I agree on that. Between the Metzger and M96/97 engine generations, where could one place the new DFI engines in terms of reliability and longevity?


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    If they completely drop the famous Mezger engine, what will happen to the GT models Smiley GT3 with "integrated" dry sump and DI "sound" ? SmileySmiley Smiley

    Hopefully the future (991 onwards) won't look like this:

    > Turbo: just another 911 with a forced induction engine

    > GT3: just another 911 with a huge wing on it's rear Smiley

     

    PS: the famous engineer was not a butcher "Metzger"  Smiley


    --
    public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    @Porsche-Jeck: I think RC meant that the GT1 derived engine is 'gone' only from the 911 TT line up and that it will continue in the 991 GT3, 991 GT3 RS & 991 GT2


    --

    Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 C2S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    Yes, Easy - but the TT was the "volume maker" for the GT1 block - hence due to missing volumes/ economies of scale it makes no sense to build the "old" engine in very small quantities just for the GT models......unless there will be a significant price increase Smiley


    --
    public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black

    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    RC:

    . I can't see any price change for customers, 

    The price change is actually 5%. +5% to be precise Smiley


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    Porsche-Jeck:

    Yes, Easy - but the TT was the "volume maker" for the GT1 block - hence due to missing volumes/ economies of scale it makes no sense to build the "old" engine in very small quantities just for the GT models......unless there will be a significant price increase Smiley


    Yes, I see what you mean and your fear could be well founded Smiley

    However, I wonder if the GT1 derived engines for the production GT3s, GT3 RSs, GT2s would be made together with GT3 Cup cars or other works models. Maybe that might enable sufficient numbers to be made? Smiley

    Maybe PAG will continue despite the cost in order to keep its foothold in this segment? Smiley


    --

    Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 C2S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    Sorry, but the whole debate is on the assumption that the current engine is not strong enough. Where do you base this assumption? Does anyone of you have privileged information?

    The GT1 engine might was kept for so long because the M96 engines were made on a strict budget out of necessity, and they were not robust enough for racing. What concrete  info is available on the new engines? I suppose none? Only speculation? All you guys with an eye and an ear in Weissach please give us the facts, if you have them.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    nberry:

    Christian, interesting comments.

    BTw, those that compare the 458 with the TT only on price are missing one small item. But for the collapse of the economy, most mid-engine Ferrari's held their value. I suspect the 458 will be selling at a premium over MSRP for a long time. That cannot be said regarding the TT. 

     

    In absolute numbers you might not lose less money (as opposed to a % of the original price) from the Ferrari. The 458 will be 1.5 times the original value of the TT. So for example a 10% loss of value of the Ferrari=15% loss of value of the Porsche in money terms. Therefore, the Porsche should lose proportionately more than 1.5 times the depreciation of the Ferrari in order to lose more money from the Porsche than from the Ferrari.  In future I don't think the depreciation of the new Turbo will be more than 1.5 times the depreciation of the 458.

    There are many "cheap" pre-owned 430 Ferraris in the UK (45+% down in 2 years), maybe not in California Smiley
    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    easy_rider911:
    Porsche-Jeck:

    Yes, Easy - but the TT was the "volume maker" for the GT1 block - hence due to missing volumes/ economies of scale it makes no sense to build the "old" engine in very small quantities just for the GT models......unless there will be a significant price increase Smiley


    Yes, I see what you mean and your fear could be well founded Smiley

    However, I wonder if the GT1 derived engines for the production GT3s, GT3 RSs, GT2s would be made together with GT3 Cup cars or other works models. Maybe that might enable sufficient numbers to be made? Smiley

    Maybe PAG will continue despite the cost in order to keep its foothold in this segment? Smiley


     

    Not that I am trying to be cynical, but one reason the 3 is still GT1 is that is still in the race (Cup) cars for 2010, but 2011 could be a different story for the 3?  Smiley 


    --

    1997 993 TT Proto 3.8L 700HP

    2005 996 TSCab EVO GT700

    2006 Noble M400 "M600" 573RWHP

    2007 Audi RS4 MTM exhaust/clutch/LWFW


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    Al, I didn't dare to say it Smiley


    --
    public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black

    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

     

    RC I’m definitely with you on the subject mater. One should understand the beauty and simplicity of the design, quality of materials and work craftsmanship that is in the GT1 engine   to appreciate it, that engine it’s a class by itself. .If Porsche could just tray to concentrate more on the weight reduction and suspension improvements in 911 that would make us all united and happy.

    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    nberry:

    Christian, interesting comments.

    BTw, those that compare the 458 with the TT only on price are missing one small item. But for the collapse of the economy, most mid-engine Ferrari's held their value. I suspect the 458 will be selling at a premium over MSRP for a long time. That cannot be said regarding the TT. 

    In 2007 a 430 spider was $400k, you can get it for $180k now...

     

    Within 12-18 months you will be able to get a 458 at MSRP in the US, thus they will not hold value like the 430 did. Yet it will be better financials than 997.2 TT.


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    MKSGR:
    RC:

    . I can't see any price change for customers, 

    The price change is actually 5%. +5% to be precise Smiley

    I would not have minded the price increase if they made more options standard like PVT, Sports Crono and such. If the margin increase RC mentions is true, Porsche is laughing to the bank once more.

    Anyway I don't see how they will sell these cars at MSRP, they will sell at 10% discount like the Cayenne TT and TTS are...


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    My understanding is that they are restricting production to keep resale high, a general feeling too many 997.1 TTs made it on to the market too quickly with a consequent glut on the secondhand market, especially here in the UK. The other side to the high purchase price coin is value retention and Porsche cannot afford to throw that away. I'm going to take a bath with my 2004 996 TT though.

    I'm visiting the factory in September, normally these visits are done on a Friday, this time on a Thursday because.... the factory is on short time working. Even if there is a demand spike for the 997.2 TT, sales remain depressed. Can't imagine what Panamera sales are looking like. All the Boxsters and Caymans have come back from Finland and still the factory is under-capacity. Not good.

    Normally, the areas around the factory are clogged with new cars waiting to be shipped. Last time I visited in April, the lots were empty, nothing. A really striking sight.

    There's no doubt the DFI engine is less expensive to make. The normally aspirated one has something like 35% fewer parts than the previous engine and, for the first time, they are using robots to build at least part of the engine.

     

     


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    MarkN:

    My understanding is that they are restricting production to keep resale high, a general feeling too many 997.1 TTs made it on to the market too quickly with a consequent glut on the secondhand market, especially here in the UK. The other side to the high purchase price coin is value retention and Porsche cannot afford to throw that away. I'm going to take a bath with my 2004 996 TT though. 


    Hi Mark, I've been hearing this from UK OPCs for over 2 years now so I hear this with much scepticism.

    My view is that PCGB is importing fewer cars into the UK simply to help keep resale prices by OPCs higher. IMO neither PCGB nor the OPCs care how much depreciation owners actually suffer.

    i.e. when you sell your Porsche, the depreciation in the UK is now like any other German car i.e. 50% in 3 years typically. But due to smaller used car stocks (since fewer cars would have been imported over the previous 2 years), your car can then be sold at a relatively better price by the OPCs (and this technique also helps OPCs cope better with any troughs in demand).

    So IMHO only the OPCs benefit. Owners who are selling their cars suffer just as badly as ever (or even worse in the current economic downturn).


    --

    Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 C2S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    I am still enthusiastic about the 997.2 Turbo but RC's posts are beginning to shake my confidence Smiley; maybe my Turbo baby is indeed something very special and does deserve that heir loom status.

     

      125010104520908AE9761-2 NO SUB BLACK 1200.jpg


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    cannga:

    I am still enthusiastic about the 997.2 Turbo but RC's posts are beginning to shake my confidence Smiley; maybe my Turbo baby is indeed something very special and does deserve that heir loom status.

     

      125010104520908AE9761-2 NO SUB BLACK 1200.jpg


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

    Well, certainly nobody can accuse you of obfuscating.Smiley
     


    --

    1997 993 TT Proto 3.8L 700HP

    2005 996 TSCab EVO GT700

    2006 Noble M400 "M600" 573RWHP

    2007 Audi RS4 MTM exhaust/clutch/LWFW


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    Turbo Al:
    cannga:

    I am still enthusiastic about the 997.2 Turbo but RC's posts are beginning to shake my confidence Smiley; maybe my Turbo baby is indeed something very special and does deserve that heir loom status.

     

      125010104520908AE9761-2 NO SUB BLACK 1200.jpg


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

    Well, certainly nobody can accuse you of obfuscating.Smiley
     


    Has RC now become the Prophet of Doom Smiley Porsche won't be too happy about his comments on the Panamera Smiley


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    reginos:

    Sorry, but the whole debate is on the assumption that the current engine is not strong enough. Where do you base this assumption? Does anyone of you have privileged information?

    The GT1 engine might was kept for so long because the M96 engines were made on a strict budget out of necessity, and they were not robust enough for racing. What concrete  info is available on the new engines? I suppose none? Only speculation? All you guys with an eye and an ear in Weissach please give us the facts, if you have them.

     

     

    So just tell me one thing: why does the new GT3 use the "old" block?! Not even mentioning the racing models and the GT2. Smiley

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    Has RC now become the Prophet of Doom Smiley Porsche won't be too happy about his comments on the Panamera Smiley

     

    I'm just a hardcore Porsche enthusiast and not a prophet of doom or Porsche's puppet.

    I like Porsche and the brand a lot, this is actually why my comments are so harsh sometimes.

    As a customer and longtime Porsche owner/driver, I see things through a different view than Porsche, journalists or Porsche owners, who drive a different/older Porsche model and want to switch to a certain new model.

    I'm not sure Porsche actually cares about my comments, they ignored my opinion various times, so maybe no one should take my personal opinion too serious because in the end, it is like with politics: we can brag all day long about it but in the end... Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    RC:
    reginos:

    Sorry, but the whole debate is on the assumption that the current engine is not strong enough. Where do you base this assumption? Does anyone of you have privileged information?

    The GT1 engine might was kept for so long because the M96 engines were made on a strict budget out of necessity, and they were not robust enough for racing. What concrete  info is available on the new engines? I suppose none? Only speculation? All you guys with an eye and an ear in Weissach please give us the facts, if you have them.

     

     

    So just tell me one thing: why does the new GT3 use the "old" block?! Not even mentioning the racing models and the GT2. Smiley

     

    Because GT3/RS engine and components are homologated for racing. If they changed the road going cars they would have to develop new racing engines too and Porsche is short of cash right now. Why spend money to develop a new RSR engine based on the DFI motor when the old one is still winning?

    GT2 is discontinued. Next one could very well have the 997.2 engine.

    That's my explanation.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    well, as a 997 C2S owner, I'm chuffed to bits. New TT out means old TT becomes cheaper. Roll on 2010 bonus!


    --
    C2S - Basalt/Black 530d - Silver/Black 2 kids, 2 dogs

    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    reginos:
    RC:

    So just tell me one thing: why does the new GT3 use the "old" block?! Not even mentioning the racing models and the GT2. Smiley

     

    Because GT3/RS engine and components are homologated for racing. If they changed the road going cars they would have to develop new racing engines too and Porsche is short of cash right now. Why spend money to develop a new RSR engine based on the DFI motor when the old one is still winning?

     


     

    And the DFI engine would not homologated in usage in other 911sSmiley  


    --
    2007 997TT Blk/Blk 2007 X3 Sil Gry/Taupe 2002 E46 M3 Slvr/Blk (gone)

    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    thuggy:
    reginos:
    RC:

    So just tell me one thing: why does the new GT3 use the "old" block?! Not even mentioning the racing models and the GT2. Smiley

     

    Because GT3/RS engine and components are homologated for racing. If they changed the road going cars they would have to develop new racing engines too and Porsche is short of cash right now. Why spend money to develop a new RSR engine based on the DFI motor when the old one is still winning?

     


     

    And the DFI engine would not homologated in usage in other 911sSmiley  

    The RSR races in the GT2 class which is a "production" class. That is , the engine and other parts of the car must be based/derived from production cars. The racing engine is based on the GT3/RS engine so by keeping the engine on the road cars as it was, they can race without changing the racing engine.

    If they installed a version of the DFI engine on the GT3, then Porsche should come up with a new racing engine too. A thing that they want to avoid for reasons of cost I presume. In future this will be done.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    bridggar:

    ....I'm chuffed to bits. New TT out means old TT becomes cheaper....


    Very smart tactic Smiley
     


    --

    Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 C2S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    reginos:
    thuggy:
    reginos:
    RC:

    So just tell me one thing: why does the new GT3 use the "old" block?! Not even mentioning the racing models and the GT2. Smiley

     

    Because GT3/RS engine and components are homologated for racing. If they changed the road going cars they would have to develop new racing engines too and Porsche is short of cash right now. Why spend money to develop a new RSR engine based on the DFI motor when the old one is still winning?

     


     

    And the DFI engine would not homologated in usage in other 911sSmiley  

    The RSR races in the GT2 class which is a "production" class. That is , the engine and other parts of the car must be based/derived from production cars. The racing engine is based on the GT3/RS engine so by keeping the engine on the road cars as it was, they can race without changing the racing engine.

    If they installed a version of the DFI engine on the GT3, then Porsche should come up with a new racing engine too. A thing that they want to avoid for reasons of cost I presume. In future this will be done.

     

     

    Also - No DFI allowed in GT2.


    Re: 997 Turbo Facelift at IAA 2009 in Frankfurt

    458 Italia is DFI...what will happen then?


     
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