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    Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    Why has the 997.2 GT3 facelift no PDK like the carrera facelift? that sucks. they has should offer it as an option in the GT3 facelift!!!

    2 short questions.

    - will the 997 turbo facelift get PDK for sure?

    - will the 997 GT2 facelift get PDK ?


    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    The GT1 engine which is used for the GT3 and Turbos(TT and GT2) was not mated to the PDK box. I am not sure if this was technical or economic reasons.

    The 997.2 TT will definitely get the new DFI engine and PDK. Haven't heard anything about the GT2.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    I think they wanted to make sure it stayed close to its roots as a driver's car.
    --
    997S Cab Seal Gray

    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    Le Chef:
    I think they wanted to make sure it stayed close to its roots as a driver's car.
    --
    997S Cab Seal Gray

           Shouldn't it  be the other way around , by your reasoning ? The GT3 is supposed to spend more of it's life at trackdays , what with it's aggressive aero pkg and suspension. Track guys supposedly don't care about the " pleasures " of rowing a gear shift knob - they just want to cross the timing  line as fast as possible - so PDK would be " faster " - no ?

    If one wants to bang redline in as many gears as possible while working a clutch , on twisty public roads , then one should get a low power car like a Mazda MX-5 Miata .

    With today's ever higher  powered  sports cars  , it's ironic that we end up using a lower percentage  of each successive generations' increased power and chassis  limits  as the fastest you can drive on a " fun " public road with today's traffic from Point A to Point B is probably not much  different than decades  ago. Ergo ,  it's all about 'Ring internet bench racing now, it seems.



    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    I guess it depends on you define a driver's car. PDK still seems like a wii shifter vs. the real thing.
    --
    997S Cab Seal Gray

    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    Le Chef:
    I guess it depends on you define a driver's car. PDK still seems like a wii shifter vs. the real thing.
    --
    997S Cab Seal Gray

            Compared to the my first  911(  an '87 Triple Black Targa  with which I tooled around the Northshore on Sheridan road for a few years)  when automatic tranny , ABS, and power steering were not even available on these cars ( I.e., the days when a 911 was seen as a "he-man car "  that was always a slippery spot away from leaving the road backwards) , today's entire 911 vehicle is a Wii game.

    Smiley


    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    I think the PDK is not rated for the power output of the GT3 (yet).  I would expect a PDK version out sometime in the future, once they have developed it to handle the demands of the GT3 engine.
    --
    "I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road without being questioned about their intent"

    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    I believe the cost of developing a PDK gearbox just for the GT2 and GT3 cars that share the same engine block is to high right now, especially with everything that is going around in the world.

    As usual with Porsche, it's all about money...


    --
    There is no try. Just do.

    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    This from a Live Chat sesssion with Patrick Long (official Porsche Motorsport Driver):

    [Comment From Henry Rivera] Will the new PDK transmission eventually see its way to the RSR or Cup racing?

    Patrick Long: I think the PDK is a great transmission. The upshifts are quick and precise, but one of the coolest parts is the blips on downshift and just how well they work on the road, but even on the racetrack. I've had the car out at Miller Motorsports Park in Salt Lake City and I favor the PDK to the manual transmission, which is something I've thought I'd never admit. As far as it coming to the modern-day racecars, I think they're already here in varied versions. Porsche prides themselves in developing so much of what's on the road today with their racing programs and technology. So it goes a little bit in the opposite direction: proven and developed on the racetrack, and then put into the line-up of their road cars.

    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    they didnt put PDK into the GT3 because it just doesnt fit the characteristics of the GT3 at all. Preuninger, who is the head developer of GT cars at Porsch Motorsports in Weissach said either he makes the people happy who go to a dealer to buy a carrera and then decide to take the one with the wing in the rear cause they liked it better. Or, satifies the ones who buy the GT3 for what its made for. Proper driving, track days motorsports etc.

    Lets not forget that PDK is not meant to replace stick shift but to replace the AUTO transmission. And thats what it is, a perfectly fine AUTO box where, if you intervene, u would only slow things down...

    If anything like that will ever be installed in sth like the new RS, it will be a similar solution to what we know from the cup cars. only a little more street optimized Preuninger said...

    greets


    --
    997 GT3 clubsport

    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    rantanplan:

    Lets not forget that PDK is not meant to replace stick shift but to replace the AUTO transmission. And thats what it is, a perfectly fine AUTO box where, if you intervene, u would only slow things down...

    If anything like that will ever be installed in sth like the new RS, it will be a similar solution to what we know from the cup cars. only a little more street optimized Preuninger said...

    greets


    Porsche are committed to the manual gearbox, as they are bringing the 7 speed manual soon with the 991.

    However, IMO they should offer a motorsport type automated manual for the GT cars, no matter if it is based on the PDK or not.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    rantanplan:

     

    Lets not forget that PDK is not meant to replace stick shift but to replace the AUTO transmission. And thats what it is, a perfectly fine AUTO box where, if you intervene, u would only slow things down...


            ...and that is the truth. Even HvS admit in 997.2CS Supertest that fastest lap was achieved in Sport Plus D mode.

    I drove PDK car three times(two extensive more then 200km lomg sessions) and it is great transmission. Just, it is TIP replacment, not manual replacement.

    One other thing that currently keeps me from PDK is that I have more then one car in family. Adapting is nice thing, but I am wondering if PDK even in Sport mode is doing things right. Gearchange strategy is sometimes totally strange and maybe even totally wrong. With manual I can choose shifting speed and throttle input that way I want and adapt to my driving style in split second. YES, PDK is doing just that as well... BUT, for more then one occasion PDKs AI choose pretty strange gearchange points when I drove it. Final verdict is-PDK is great and is designed to be used 99% of time in D mode. Some will argue with me on this-but, this is the fact.


    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    KresoF1:
    rantanplan:

    Lets not forget that PDK is not meant to replace stick shift but to replace the AUTO transmission. And thats what it is, a perfectly fine AUTO box where, if you intervene, u would only slow things down...


            ...and that is the truth. Even HvS admit in 997.2CS Supertest that fastest lap was achieved in Sport Plus D mode.

    I drove PDK car three times(two extensive more then 200km lomg sessions) and it is great transmission. Just, it is TIP replacment, not manual replacement.

    One other thing that currently keeps me from PDK is that I have more then one car in family. Adapting is nice thing, but I am wondering if PDK even in Sport mode is doing things right. Gearchange strategy is sometimes totally strange and maybe even totally wrong. With manual I can choose shifting speed and throttle input that way I want and adapt to my driving style in split second. YES, PDK is doing just that as well... BUT, for more then one occasion PDKs AI choose pretty strange gearchange points when I drove it. Final verdict is-PDK is great and is designed to be used 99% of time in D mode. Some will argue with me on this-but, this is the fact.

    I use it in D mode most of the time. But I find that if i want more control (like on a curvy country/mountain road) It suits me more the manual mode (with the stick rather than the buttons) than using D and overiding with buttons. When you overide the system decides for itself when to change back to Auto mode (minimum 8 seconds but depending on parameters it can be anytime) and I find this confusing , if I am not on a motorway.

    I can say that Manual Mode using the stick gives very good control and feeling/pleasure even if for time it might not be the fastest.


    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    KresoF1:
    Gearchange strategy is sometimes totally strange and maybe even totally wrong. .. BUT, for more then one occasion PDKs AI choose pretty strange gearchange points when I drove it


    Theoretically PDK in D mode is the best ( around a lap if each 10th of a second counts) but I end up driving now 85% of the time in manual as I prefer MY SELECTION of gears, that is sometimes different from what PDK would choose, and my gear choice suits me better.

    So.... I  most of the time end up preferring a worst fuel efficiency, a worst ' lap time' but a more connected feeling with the car..


    --
     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    Gnil:
    KresoF1:
    Gearchange strategy is sometimes totally strange and maybe even totally wrong. .. BUT, for more then one occasion PDKs AI choose pretty strange gearchange points when I drove it


    Theoretically PDK in D mode is the best ( around a lap if each 10th of a second counts) but I end up driving now 85% of the time in manual as I prefer MY SELECTION of gears, that is sometimes different from what PDK would choose, and my gear choice suits me better.

    So.... I  most of the time end up preferring a worst fuel efficiency, a worst ' lap time' but a more connected feeling with the car..


    I see exactly what you mean. However, in a full manual car you would be even worse perhaps. Have you compared?


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    Gnil:
    KresoF1:
    Gearchange strategy is sometimes totally strange and maybe even totally wrong. .. BUT, for more then one occasion PDKs AI choose pretty strange gearchange points when I drove it


    Theoretically PDK in D mode is the best ( around a lap if each 10th of a second counts) but I end up driving now 85% of the time in manual as I prefer MY SELECTION of gears, that is sometimes different from what PDK would choose, and my gear choice suits me better.

    So.... I  most of the time end up preferring a worst fuel efficiency, a worst ' lap time' but a more connected feeling with the car..


         Actually, are you sure that you rselection of gears is not better then PDKs AI? Think twice now... In standard mode PDK is keen to keep fuel consumption as low as possible-result: lame throttle response and seventh gear in city traffic... Totally idiotic IMHO. Sport mode? Best one for above average dynamic driving. Here also things are sometimes strange-example: closing fast to intersection in Sport D mode and getting on the brake, PDKs AI applied throttle dip and downshifted-just, I did not want that. I wanted to slow noticably and turn to other direction... PDK needs some Cylon technology because in its current state it is very good-BUT, IMHO far from excellent.

    Maybe PDK will indeed totally adapt to owners driving style with say 10000kms on clock...    


    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    The default mode would be the sport mode, if PDK came with just one program.

    However, in daily driving in and out of town the standard mode is good to have. It is economical and relaxing although of course not exciting.

    I  also came to accept that in D the PDK logic sometimes decides in a way I don't like (it is a computer anyway) and I shift quickly into manual and take control of the gearchanges using the lever. I find that very satisfying on roads with tight bends that frequent changes are needed.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    My understanding is that the PDK doesn't match the bolt pattern of the GT3 engine.  That's also the reason the GT3 doesn't have the same manual transmission as the Carrera.


    --

    2008 GT3

     


    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    Greentree:

    My understanding is that the PDK doesn't match the bolt pattern of the GT3 engine.  That's also the reason the GT3 doesn't have the same manual transmission as the Carrera.

    In addition to the different bolt patterns mentioned above, the GT3 gearbox can easily be stripped down and rebuilt in any decently equipped workshop, for instance after heavy track use or to install different gear ratios for track use. A range of gear sets is available for this box from the factory or from race parts specialists.

    The standard Carrera transmission and PDK are laid out for more economical series production under factory conditions (for instance, gear wheels are shrink-fitted onto shafts instead of splined) so it would be more difficult or not economically possible for them to be completely overhauled outside the manufacturer's plant. For this reason, no alternative gear ratios will be available for them.


    --

    fritz


    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    Isn't it just that porsche marketed the PDK as the successor of tiptronic?
    Did they ever offer an RS or GT3 version with a tiptronic?

    My guess is that IF they want to offer a different version of transmission on the GT3 or GT3 rs, that it will be some sort of sequential gearbox.

    -Joost-


    --

    Porsche, seperates LeMans from LeBoys

    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    Joost:

    Isn't it just that porsche marketed the PDK as the successor of tiptronic?
    Did they ever offer an RS or GT3 version with a tiptronic?

    My guess is that IF they want to offer a different version of transmission on the GT3 or GT3 rs, that it will be some sort of sequential gearbox.

    -Joost-

    I think you have to look at your question from a different angle to arrive at the right answer. Smiley

    Ask yourself this: If Porsche were to offer a manual, a PDK and a Tiptronic transmission simultaneously in the same car model, which ones would sell?

    I think you would agree that there would be a lot of takers for both the manual and the PDK versions, but only the ill-informed would now order a Tip.Smiley
    You might also agree that PDK would also attract a lot of buyers from the manual camp, if Porsche had not gone the "puddle" route instead of the "paddle" route. Smiley  Whilst the Tip was dropped with the introduction of the PDK, it was effectively only by default and not because the PDK was seen as being a direct replacement for the Tip.

    It is true that none of the GT models has ever been offered with a Tip, for several very good reasons. But we have already seen here on Rennteam in the past that many potential buyers expressed an interest in a GT3 with a PDK box (as long as it had paddles!).

    One additional reason why a GT3 might not get a PDK at present, which I omitted to mention in my last post, is the fact that the PDK still has a significant weight penalty for a car like a GT3 (which lives from its power-to-weight ratio).

     

     


    --

    fritz


    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    fritz:
    Joost:

    Isn't it just that porsche marketed the PDK as the successor of tiptronic?
    Did they ever offer an RS or GT3 version with a tiptronic?

    My guess is that IF they want to offer a different version of transmission on the GT3 or GT3 rs, that it will be some sort of sequential gearbox.

    -Joost-

    I think you have to look at your question from a different angle to arrive at the right answer. Smiley

    Ask yourself this: If Porsche were to offer a manual, a PDK and a Tiptronic transmission simultaneously in the same car model, which ones would sell?

    I think you would agree that there would be a lot of takers for both the manual and the PDK versions, but only the ill-informed would now order a Tip.Smiley
    You might also agree that PDK would also attract a lot of buyers from the manual camp, if Porsche had not gone the "puddle" route instead of the "paddle" route. Smiley  Whilst the Tip was dropped with the introduction of the PDK, it was effectively only by default and not because the PDK was seen as being a direct replacement for the Tip.

    It is true that none of the GT models has ever been offered with a Tip, for several very good reasons. But we have already seen here on Rennteam in the past that many potential buyers expressed an interest in a GT3 with a PDK box (as long as it had paddles!).

    One additional reason why a GT3 might not get a PDK at present, which I omitted to mention in my last post, is the fact that the PDK still has a significant weight penalty for a car like a GT3 (which lives from its power-to-weight ratio).

     

     

    Indeed the weight must be one of  the main reasons why no pdk for the GT3.


    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

     

    Biggest issue that I see is that the PDK has an upper RPM limit of 8,000 RPM

     

    Check out this ZF video:

    www.zf.com/corporate/en/products/innovations/7_speed_dualclutch/7_speed_dualclutch.html


    --
    997 GT3 Guards Red

    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    i think the principal reason is the electronic management of the GT3 block doesn't support the gestion of the PDK gearbox

    sorry for my french eglish 


    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    This was asked of the PCNA rep at Parade.  He said, "The PDK is not yet ready for the GT3."


    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    KresoF1:

    One other thing that currently keeps me from PDK is that I have more then one car in family. Adapting is nice thing, but I am wondering if PDK even in Sport mode is doing things right. Gearchange strategy is sometimes totally strange and maybe even totally wrong. With manual I can choose shifting speed and throttle input that way I want and adapt to my driving style in split second. YES, PDK is doing just that as well... BUT, for more then one occasion PDKs AI choose pretty strange gearchange points when I drove it. Final verdict is-PDK is great and is designed to be used 99% of time in D mode. Some will argue with me on this-but, this is the fact.

    As you may know, my wife drives a BMW M3 Cab DKG. The auto mode of DKG sucks bigtime, it is not as good as the PDK auto mode, even if you adjust it to the sportiest setting.

    Driving DKG in manual mode is a treat though, I just love it. Upshifts are extremely fast and shifting without releasing the throttle is so much fun too.

    My wife didn't complaint at all about the DKG auto mode, she usually lets in the comfort setting (two display bars) and she is happy with it. I drove this setting a couple of times and hate it.

    Bottom line is: the PDK setup is pretty good, not perfect but good. The auto mode works pretty well and imitates the Tiptronic pretty well. Yes, PDK is supposed to replace Tiptronic in the first place but the truth is, it could easily replace manual too if Porsche would finally go for a more aggressive programming in sport mode.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    This is what Ferrari did with the California, and undoubtedly with the 458...


    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    Jim_in_Iowa:

    This was asked of the PCNA rep at Parade.  He said, "The PDK is not yet ready for the GT3."

    Keep in mind that the same probably applies to PCNA reps as does to dealers' salesmen.

    They are never going to admit the real truth, which would probably be:

    "They never tell me anything anyway, because they now I'd only blab."

    Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    any word on if the next gen 998 GT3 will have PDK?


    Re: Why no 997. 2 GT3 PDK??

    yes - surprised the 458 with that power uses DSG and its weight seems 'reasonable'


     
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