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    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    m4ever:

    Great review RC,  thank you for taking the time to share it with us. The 991.2  is a very smart car . Will deliver  Turbo like experience to a much wider customer base which will also enjoy the everyday benefits of low end torque. 

    RC- are you tempted?  

    Yes and no. Nothing beats the sound of my GTS and I kind of like the n/a engine and the revving behavior. What tempted me is the 911 Turbo feel, it reminded me of my former 991 Turbo S and how much I would have loved to keep it but the engine/exhaust sound bored the hell out of me. With the 991.2 Carrera S PSE sound, I would have never given away my Turbo S. Never. So yes, I am tempted but I guess for the wrong reasons. Smiley I will have to listen to the facelifted 991 Turbo S, I haven't heard it yet but a friend told me that not much has changed, however if this car would have a similar sound to the new Carrera  S (something I highly doubt), I would be tempted to get a 991 Turbo S Cabriolet.

    Nah...I think I am going to stick with my GTS for now and see how the next 911 Turbo S generation will be. The VTG chargers will go as far as I heard, so there is a chance of a proper sound improvement but with the new upcoming EU noise limitations laws, maybe not. Smiley

    Right now, I have a used Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder or a used R8 V10 Plus on my radar, so... Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    Mikla:

    Thanks, very good points. Si fully subscribe to what you said: in Spain the base model is more than enough. As RC said, I have to try a manual car... or be patient and wait until 991.1 prices adjust.

    Do not order a manual blindly, this would be a huge mistake (I haven't driven the manual yet). Also try to test-drive both, manual and PDK, back to back and use PDK manual mode for comparison.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    Curious if you can get rear wheel steering with the manual. As I recall this one of the reasons the gT3  had be pdk only else the rws  would not work. 

    I tend to agree that pdk is a better solution for this power train. Just can't ever imagine not shifting a 911 without a clutch. Sorry. On the street I don't need to be the fastest and I would be bored with a pdk. Sound is no substitute for shifting fun. I'm hoping my old mezger turbo with a clutch will increase in value over time. I will try to hold on to it until then. It's at 80k  miles and running like new. Perhaps just getting faster. 


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    Leawood911:

    Curious if you can get rear wheel steering with the manual. As I recall this one of the reasons the gT3  had be pdk only else the rws  would not work. 

    Actually, you can now. The problem with the GT3 wasn't that it doesn't work. The problem was development cost and the need for two chassis setups (manual and PDK).

    I tend to agree that pdk is a better solution for this power train. Just can't ever imagine not shifting a 911 without a clutch. Sorry. On the street I don't need to be the fastest and I would be bored with a pdk. Sound is no substitute for shifting fun. I'm hoping my old mezger turbo with a clutch will increase in value over time. I will try to hold on to it until then. It's at 80k  miles and running like new. Perhaps just getting faster. 

    I wasn't too fond of Tiptronic but I chose it for my 997 Turbo because it was the best performance option and with the RUF upgrade, it was just amazing. Shifting manually was however dull, no fun, so I left it in auto all the time.

    My first car with PDK was a 997 Carrera GTS Cab, more fun than Tiptronic but still not what I had looked for, especially in manual mode but also in auto mode. The 991 GTS I have now is completely different: PDK is fun to use, especially in manual mode but I have to admit that the PDK in the 991.2 was even more fun in manual mode due to the shorter paddles and the shorter way of the paddles (micro-switch feel).

    At some point, I wouldn't be surprised if a car manufacturer offers some sort of "fake" clutch (meaning: there is a clutch pedal but clutch is operated electronically and works similar to PDK clutch sys), just to satisfy customers. Smiley Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    RC:
     

    At some point, I wouldn't be surprised if a car manufacturer offers some sort of "fake" clutch (meaning: there is a clutch pedal but clutch is operated electronically and works similar to PDK clutch sys), just to satisfy customers. Smiley Smiley

    AFAIK Schaeffler is already developing such an "e-clutch" system. Potential start might be between 2018 and 2020. If I find the article again, I'll post it.


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    They should give us two clutch pedals to operate dual clutch transmissions indecision


    --

    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    Grant:
    SciFrog:

    1) several thousands does not make it rare

    2) they could yet they might still do small production runs like the GT4 or rumored 911R...

    1.) I don't necessarily think there will be several thousands

    2.) There were 1,581 1973 Carrera RS's made (more than regular 1973 911S).  Are those considered rare or valuable?

    1) in one year maybe not but over the course of a model (i.e. 9xx.x)? It has to be in the thousands easily

    2) The RS was a special version of the 911 not made for several years, you cannot compared to a regular 911 model


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    SciFrog:
    Grant:
    SciFrog:

    1) several thousands does not make it rare

    2) they could yet they might still do small production runs like the GT4 or rumored 911R...

    1.) I don't necessarily think there will be several thousands

    2.) There were 1,581 1973 Carrera RS's made (more than regular 1973 911S).  Are those considered rare or valuable?

    1) in one year maybe not but over the course of a model (i.e. 9xx.x)? It has to be in the thousands easily

    2) The RS was a special version of the 911 not made for several years, you cannot compared to a regular 911 model

    I'm not suggesting that the 991.2 Manual will be worth a small fortune some day - just allowing for the possibility that it could be worth more than PDK versions at some point in the not too distant future (while saving money at the start).  You think this is possible (especially if it is the last manual Carrera, as we agree it could be), don't you?


    --

     

     

    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    Anything is possible. Look at the GT4, no one thought Porsche would build it...

    More seriously, if it is the last manual 911 at some point it will get a boost in price vs PDK, but at least 5 years after the last one is produced. But again, I think Porsche will continue to make special runs of manual cars so "last" manual might be hard to pinpoint...


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    RC:

    RC- are you tempted?  

    Yes and no. Nothing beats the sound of my GTS 

    Let me think Smiley ma GT3 RS SmileySmiley


    --

    AM


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    SciFrog:

    Anything is possible. Look at the GT4, no one thought Porsche would build it...

    More seriously, if it is the last manual 911 at some point it will get a boost in price vs PDK, but at least 5 years after the last one is produced. But again, I think Porsche will continue to make special runs of manual cars so "last" manual might be hard to pinpoint...

    I was talking about last manual Carrera (I don't include 911 R or similar in that category, though those special cars will tend to raise the price of more affordable manuals too, I would guess as a halo effect).


    --

    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    It used to be that the slowest 911 was and automatic all wheel drive convertible. They lost more value faster than any other model. Thanks to the GTS package it is now like the baby turbo cab. I can see why RC loves his. He will never sell  it. 


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    Grant:

    They should give us two clutch pedals to operate dual clutch transmissions indecision

    Now that would be interesting... Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    ALDO:
    RC:

    RC- are you tempted?  

    Yes and no. Nothing beats the sound of my GTS 

    Let me think Smiley ma GT3 RS SmileySmiley

    You think? Smiley Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    Rotbart:
    RC:
     

    At some point, I wouldn't be surprised if a car manufacturer offers some sort of "fake" clutch (meaning: there is a clutch pedal but clutch is operated electronically and works similar to PDK clutch sys), just to satisfy customers. Smiley Smiley

    AFAIK Schaeffler is already developing such an "e-clutch" system. Potential start might be between 2018 and 2020. If I find the article again, I'll post it.

    This "issue" has been discussed at Porsche as well, so I guess that Porsche (and maybe other car manufacturers as well) have discussed this technology and the possibilities with their suppliers. I still think it is unnecessary and quite ridiculous (look at the F1 and most professional racing series worldwide, there is no driver operated clutch for shifting anymore but if it helps to make customers happy, why not?!).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    RC:
    ALDO:
    RC:

    RC- are you tempted?  

    Yes and no. Nothing beats the sound of my GTS 

    Let me think Smiley ma GT3 RS SmileySmiley

    You think? Smiley Smiley Smiley

    I am more then sure Smiley merry Christmas 


    --

     

    AM

     


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    ALDO:
    RC:
    ALDO:
    RC:

    RC- are you tempted?  

    Yes and no. Nothing beats the sound of my GTS 

    Let me think Smiley ma GT3 RS SmileySmiley

    You think? Smiley Smiley Smiley

    I am more then sure Smiley merry Christmas 


    --

     

    AM

     

    If your car is stock, you shouldn't be sure. Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    From Chris Harris on his Twitter a couple of days ago:

    Finally had a go in a new turbo Carrera. It's a mighty complete machine. 

    But of the big-3 that went n/a to whoosh (488/M3/911) this for me is the least successful. I really miss the zing of that old engine.

    That 9A1 normally aspirated 6 in the last GTS was just a stunning engine. New one has more mid-range but loses so much noise/excitement.

    It's a very very good car though. New steering wheel/ infotainment superb. Chassis spot-on. Looks great. I just miss that old motor.

    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    Spot on.


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    Here's hoping the eventual , inevitable all hybridized 911 " daily driver " models down  the road will be paired again  with an obviuosly much smaller normally aspirated " booster " engine ...same for Ferrari's " attainable" sportiest  model ,  its " mid V8 " one 

    history will show that the 991.2 and 488 turbo drivetrains were short term , cost predictable ,easy to implement proven  over decades technology to meet looming emissions- dictated mandates timed  where true next gen  powertrains were not ready for prime time from either theirs or their buyers' standpoints in calendar 2016 .


    --

     

    2016 991 GTS  " PCA 60 "  Club Coupe      1 of 60 

     


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    Or just a bridge to full electric


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    Leawood911:

    Or just a bridge to full electric

    ...where it  will need the optional but  mandatory  " PSS " : Porsche Sport Sound ,  consisting of rpm and load synchronized 100 % fake, fully digitized sound files played through its own dedicated speakers in the rear of the interior  and whose " exhaust " sound and volume will vary with the Sport Chrono setting !

    At the same time, it will please the " noise police" by sounding like a golf  cart from the outside 

    this being Porsche, it will "only " cost $9,000 !

    they are half way there already  with the 991.2 " baby turbos "   : driving reports are  saying it is " mandatory " that enthusiast buyers check the $$$ PSE option box when speccing the car, whether base or S motor or else it sounds like driving while wearing ear muffs 

    Smiley


    --

     

    2016  991 Carrera GTS  " PCA 60 "  Club Coupe       orig owner ; 1 of 60 

     


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    987er:

    Spot on.

    If Chris Harris compares the sound of the new facelifted 991.2 Carrera S with PSE and the 991.1 GTS, the new car can only lose. If he would compare it to the regular 991.1 with PSE, I think that Porsche did a marvelous job with the new one. Most 911 customers will love the new "baby 911 Turbo" feel, something which has already been confirmed to me my sales person after customer feedback (test-drives). Also, yes...I believe that many customers will actually choose the 991.2 Carrera (without S) because this car will already feel powerful enough. Unless of course customers want options like PDCC, etc..


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    On a sidenote, sound apart, the 991.2 base exhaust looks better than the 991.1 base exhaust. Just saying, ...

    Also, the new rectangular shape kinda flows well with the rectangular turbo air intake design. Much better than the outer round tips of the non-PSE 991.2 S.


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    Just talked to a friend of mine who just made a 300Km trip with the new 991.2S and he was amazed by engine sound this car has. He told me the exhaust makes pop´s and crakles on down shifts ! He has a 997.1 GT3 , 997 4S Coupe and a Aston Martin V8 among other Sports SUV´s and normal cars, overall he was very well impressed with this new toy from Porsche. On his way back he brought a 991.2 S Turbo and told me the power is HUGE, engine sound worst than 991.2S but still not bad. That´s what RC has been saying all along so it really seems Porsche did a wonderful job with the new 991.2.


    --

     

    J.Seven

     

     

     


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    pops and crackles can be engineered into any car, even an econobox ...whether it be na vs turbo or sport vs reg exhaust ..it is done more and more these days via " sales / marketing engineering "  directed purposeful ignition timing on the overrun ...Toyota could do standard pops and crackles on a base Corolla , but it would be cheesy .

    some criticized this on the ignition timing changes triggered by the 991.1.Sport and esp Sport Chrono buttons at the model's launch a few years ago ..said it made the car rumble and burble  like an American big block hot rod from the 60s , not the famed fine -tuned high strung euro boxer engine with decades of heritage . 

    same criticism has been leveled at the Jag F -type ign timing ( same American style crackles and pops , but farcically so !) 

    but if  today's buyers more and more want a regular , non " Turbo " 911 , with pops and crackles and mid range locomotive torque vs linear power band leading to rising hp close to redline ( i.e., they prefer the 991.2S's seat of the pants " get up and go " over the 991.1 S's ) ,  they are " enjoying "  the American experience of how a motor feels and sounds on  say , a current Mustang or Corvette and moving ever father and farther away from what a 911 use to be ..... the antidote to its 50 +  yr parallel market bogie : the Corvette.

    The current base C7 Corvette sounds a lot like a C2 from the 60s......the current base 991.2 sounds nothing like a '73 Carrera RS , with its " thrashing chains slapping against bare  metal " sound in the high rpm ranges !


    --

     

    2016  991 Carrera GTS  " PCA 60 "  Club Coupe       orig owner ; 1 of 60 

     


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    Amidst all of these amplified sound effects, maybe there comes a point in time, maybe sooner than not, where some folks come to appreciate the pure, distinguished, non-inflated, fine rackle free sound of the new non-PSE 991.2 Carreras.

    The times they are a-changin'.


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    987er:

    Amidst all of these amplified sound effects, maybe there comes a point in time, maybe sooner than not, where some folks come to appreciate the pure, distinguished, non-inflated, fine rackle free sound of the new non-PSE 991.2 Carreras.

    The times they are a-changin'.

    that's why I like the pse - you can just turn it off when you want that quiet drive time.


    --

    2013 Lotus Evora S/ 2008 Cayenne GTS Manual

    2012 991 C2S -PDK / 2010 997.2 turbo cab manual, sold //2008 RS 60 sold /04 C4S sold - 08 Cayenne Turbo PDCC sold


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    MKW:

    pops and crackles can be engineered into any car, even an econobox ...whether it be na vs turbo or sport vs reg exhaust ..it is done more and more these days via " sales / marketing engineering "  directed purposeful ignition timing on the overrun ...Toyota could do standard pops and crackles on a base Corolla , but it would be cheesy .

    some criticized this on the ignition timing changes triggered by the 991.1.Sport and esp Sport Chrono buttons at the model's launch a few years ago ..said it made the car rumble and burble  like an American big block hot rod from the 60s , not the famed fine -tuned high strung euro boxer engine with decades of heritage . 

    same criticism has been leveled at the Jag F -type ign timing ( same American style crackles and pops , but farcically so !) 

    but if  today's buyers more and more want a regular , non " Turbo " 911 , with pops and crackles and mid range locomotive torque vs linear power band leading to rising hp close to redline ( i.e., they prefer the 991.2S's seat of the pants " get up and go " over the 991.1 S's ) ,  they are " enjoying "  the American experience of how a motor feels and sounds on  say , a current Mustang or Corvette and moving ever father and farther away from what a 911 use to be ..... the antidote to its 50 +  yr parallel market bogie : the Corvette.

    The current base C7 Corvette sounds a lot like a C2 from the 60s......the current base 991.2 sounds nothing like a '73 Carrera RS , with its " thrashing chains slapping against bare  metal " sound in the high rpm ranges !


    --

     

    2016  991 Carrera GTS  " PCA 60 "  Club Coupe       orig owner ; 1 of 60 

     

    This is how my GTS sounds but much louder than the C2 from the 60s. Smiley

    I also noticed that the sound became even louder (better) at around 6000 km. That high pitch metallic sewing sound is not a sound anyone can replicate with a turbo charged car but I have to admit that Porsche did a great job with the new PSE equipped Carrera S. I don't know why Chris Harris claims that the new M3/M4 sounds better, they aren't even close and I know the sound pretty well because a family friend owns one. He drove the new 991.2 Carrera S with PSE as well (after I bugged him to try it) and he is very very impressed. However, he claims that his M4 looks better in the interior (I don't know about that but... Smiley).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Porsche 991.2 Carrera S (Facelift) - Short Driving Report

    M4 interior looks better than 991? Send him to your eye doctor! indecision  


     
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