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    Wanted: your opinions...

    I'm looking for some input relative to the driving experience with a C4S cab.

    I've owned a number C2 cabs and found them light, responsive, fun to drive but not real quick.

    I own a 996tt which I find somewhat heavier feeling with heavier, less responsive steering but brutally fast (after the lag).

    Can someone give me an idea as to how the 2004 C4S cab feels relative to these two? I know it will be slow, but is it more on the heavier, number side or more like the C2 cab?

    Many thanks in advance.

    Re: Wanted: your opinions...

    AWD C4S more like 996TT (awd) than 996C2 (rwd)

    Re: Wanted: your opinions...

    But why? Don't understand it!

    I always thought that the AWD improves handling and a bit more weight on the front axle should be appreciated in that car!

    Since it should have wider tyres it should also stick to the ground much better - might be that the tyre width increase demanded steering effort though.

    Any insights?

    Re: Wanted: your opinions...

    There is a difference between "feel" and "fast". A C4S Cab will "feel" slower than a C2 Cab on a track but it will be the faster car after the tires heat up. Some people say that the awd makes the car feel more "planted" but I think it just makes the car feel heavy. The "feel" is subjective. I do agree with Trundle, when I drove a C4s it felt more like a slow Turbo than a C2...

    Roy
    01 Turbo
    02 996 Cab

    Re: Wanted: your opinions...

    A C4S cannot be faster than a C2 on a track, cab or coupe, tyres hot or cold.
    That's with an experienced driver that is.
    Simply because the C2 is lighter and has more traction.

    Re: Wanted: your opinions...

    Sorry, but according from what I've read so far it actually is faster. At least on traction and handling-biased circuits like Hockenheim's short track!

    According to SportAuto the C4S was the sportiest model in the Carrera range, leaving aside the GT3! Maybe it is just that well-handling that people have the feeling it would be a slow couch?

    Anybody who has driven both cars could comment on that?

    Re: Wanted: your opinions...

    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    A C4S cannot be faster than a C2 on a track, cab or coupe, tyres hot or cold.
    That's with an experienced driver that is.
    Simply because the C2 is lighter and has more traction.



    For a very large track, that is correct; for most tracks, it is not. A C2 does not have more traction, that's the point. First, the C2 is basically a one wheel drive car since no LSD is available. Your ability to put power down is dependent on that ONE tire's ability to handle the heat. Too much heat, and the traction of that tire goes down. The C4S uses all 4 tires and can apply the power down to each of the 4 tires with less stress on them, therefore less heat. For the first few laps the C2 will be faster due to weight, after things heat up, the C4s will catch up and pass. There have been independent tests on this on "normal" tracks (not Nuerburgring which is very large) and the C4s was the faster car.

    Some other points are that the C4s has a stiffer chassis, bigger rubber, and bigger brakes. That makes for better total lateral accelleration and better braking. The only advantage a C2 has is straight line accelleration due to less weight. On the "ring" that helps, on most of the tracks I run on overheating the tires catches up with the C2 after 2 or 3 laps.

    Roy

    Re: Wanted: your opinions...

    Thanks for the explanation, that makes sense.
    The S also has wider tracks for better stability in corners I guess.
    But if the C2 is one wheel drive car because it has no LSD, then the C4 is a "2" wheel drive car because it sends traction to the front axle, but it doesn't have LSD either, to my knowledge. However, PSM, to a certain extend, counteracts the lack of LSD.

    Re: Wanted: your opinions...

    Fanch, even without LSD the power on the C4 is distributed to all four tyres, which means one single tyre has to put down much less power!

    Roy, what would you say about the above mentioned comment of the C4S being less nimble and agile?

    Re: Wanted: your opinions...

    Ok, so without LSD, power gets applied to all four tyres on the C4S and on the C2 without LSD, power gets applied to the two rear tyres then.
    Do you see what I mean? We can't say one thing's true for one car and not true for the other car.

    Re: Wanted: your opinions...

    Noo, that's not what I mean. The C4 usually has a 40 : 60 percent power distribution between front and rear axle in normal driving.

    So only 60 percent of the power gets to the reartyres which are, as far as I remember, at least 10mm wider than on a std. Carrera. Since this car has already a good traction due to the rear-engine there shouldn't be too many situatons where traction is lost on that car. The sportsuspension and wider track should also contribute to a better weight distribution between OUTside and INside tyres.

    I might be wrong on that one but that's what I would say! Comments appreciated!

    Re: Wanted: your opinions...

    The C4 to my knowledge has normally 95% rear/5% front torque distribution, but if the rear start to loose traction it will increase torque to the front from the 5% up to 40%. Neither C2 (except MY99 C2 fitted with optional rear LSD) nor C4/C4S have LSD so if the C2 is considered a one wheel drive car, the C4/C4S is a two wheel drive car, not 4 wheel cause there is no front nor rear LSD, only centre viscous-coupling differential for the variable front vs rear torque split. But then again the C2 and the C4/C4S have an electronical version of the lSD, the ABD for front and rear.

    So I agree the C4/C4S will always have more traction, and not only that, it will also be more effective in most hands, i.e. faster, in most hands anyway because only very experience drivers will not benefit from the AWD ease and forgiveness at the limit, just like many drivers will be faster around a track with a 996TT Tip than a manual. That said, a C2 optioned with Powerkit, RoWM030 and 18" wheels will be easily faster than an equally priced C4S, even with most drivers beacuse the difference of power-to-weight and weight/agility is just too big.

    Re: Wanted: your opinions...

    Don't forget there are two NA 996's that come with a LSD (among other things) standard--the 40th Anniversary Edition and the GT3--

    Geoff.

    Re: Wanted: your opinions...

    And some of MY99 996s

    Re: Wanted: your opinions...

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    But why? Don't understand it!
    Since it should have wider tyres it should also stick to the ground much better - might be that the tyre width increase demanded steering effort though.

    Any insights?



    And then there is the question of the front suspension geometry! The 996C4S and 996TT both have the same front axle with "canted" suspension struts to make room for the front drive shafts. The rear-wheel drive cars' front suspension strut axes are in line with the tire patch, so bump and rebound forces might be better resolved on these cars?

    This could explain the better steering response and feed-back of the rear-drive cars implied in above posts.

    Re: Wanted: your opinions...

    Ah, danke Fritz!

    The Carrera4 should also feel a bit less nimble, shouldn't it? Didn't read anything about it in SportAuto's supertest and haven't driven such a car so far!

    Let's find out where I can get one...

    Re: Wanted: your opinions...

    Does the C4 feel less nimble, or is it more planted? I think that it depends where you sit on the speed curve. If you start the car slowly, the C4 may "feel" heavier, but once you get up to high revs in 2nd or 3rd, up a twisty mountain road it feels fast and on rails. The C2 front may feel loser in comparison. Which one is better? I dn't know - I suppose it is a question of taste.

    RC seems to indicate that the new 997 front suspension geometry makes the new C2 feel more planted, then closer to what the 996 C4 is.

     
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