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    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    Leawood911 said:... Mark my words - the PDK will eat clutches because drivers will abuse them like conventional automatics - which they are not. Why do you think the PDK has taken so long to deliver?



    You may very well be right.

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    Leawood911 said:
    Quote:
    swajames said:
    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    If I'm not mistaken, the Tip Turbo posts slower trap-speeds, which indicates the flip-side of the coin, faster full-boost shifts are at the expense of less h.p. to the wheels...



    Car & Driver's 1/4 mile test posted a higher trap speed with the tiptronic, and the 6 speed was also slower to 160.



    Take away the new 997TT launch control and a manual would smoke it! For example look at the 996 TT Tip. My 997 S w/6 speed is much quicker to 60!

    My choice will alway be to go with a manual. Mark my words - the PDK will eat clutches because drivers will abuse them like conventional automatics - which they are not. Why do you think the PDK has taken so long to deliver?



    The 997 Turbo doesn't have launch control.

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    You obviously possess skills most drivers do not have (certainly not me). I suppose with your shifting skills against a poseur driving a Tip, you will prevail. Take a factory driver, you would have to be absolute perfect to stay with him.

    Around a track, it is not in dispute that a PDK is better, faster and as much fun if not more. Tell me, if you could do a time around a track let say the Ring in 7.50 driving a Tip and 7.55 driving a manual, which would you prefer and be more fun? Think about it. If the fun is in the shifting but losing time why not buy a Miata and be done with it. You can shift your brains out while losing.

    To me buying a performance car is about achieving it maximum PERFORMANCE as the manufacturer intended. For an example, Ferrari is on record stating the 430 was designed to perform best using an F1 tranny. I will wager that when Porsche introduces PDK it will no be a contest between the manual equipped car and PDK. I will also wager that the majority of Porsche's sold will be equipped with PDK about 3 years after PDK introduction.



    nberry, your "the purpose is maximum performance" logic falls on its face if you continue to expand upon it...

    So relinquishing the clutching and shifting to computer-controlled mechanicals nets you faster performance, and that should be "better" to any real performance car enthusiast... And then you've got computerized "yaw control", and computerized "traction control", and computerized "stability control", and on and on... We all know that manufacturers have developed and are working on basic "autopilot" programs, and it is entirely feasible that someday electronics and systems will be perfected that will allow a computer to circle any given track in elapsed-times that no human can approach..

    My question to you nberry, is WHERE does the line get drawn... Where does technology step over the line of enjoyment and involvement? At what point are you trading skill for speed? Instead of honing a skill, just automating it hence eliminating it? There's no perfect answer here, but there IS a line, and that line admittedly may be different from person to person, hence our debate..

    After all, it's the G-forces and the danger that create the thrill for the driver... The timeslips and laptimes? That's just ego, using lap times to boast or compare to others, or to compete within your own skull.

    Out on the open road, none of these times mean squat. It's the physical experience, the visceral rush of power, the forces exerted on your body, and the feeling of involvement and control and one-ness with your machine that matter... Nobody's sitting around with a stopwatch...

    So I say bull$hit..... Technology is great for technology's sake, but IF it doesn't enhance the overall experience, then it's only good for bragging rights and racing and... Of course, if one finds shifting to be "work", or just stinks at it in-general, I suppose in that regard an automatic shifter would indeed enhance...

    But for those of us who enjoy shifting, relish the control and the direct link between engine and wheels, giving that away just to post some lap times would be like Tiger woods trading his putter for some computerized contraption that nails the heart of the pocket every time, from any distance. SUPERIOR? Sure, if that's how you measure superiority... But, in golf, or ANY sport, in my way of thinking, it defeats the whole damn purpose of playing the game, and practicing the game... Are you there to play golf? Or are you just there to make birdies and bask in your own glory with your scorecard? Yes, golf club manufacturers are steeped in technology, and constantly discovering new ways to improve their products... But there's that LINE, that line you don't cross, where you don't manufacture that "automated" club that handles some key portion of the swing for you, so that you can just effectively forget about a certain aspect of the swing and tell your buddies, "ahh, it just does it for me, it's the finest in performance clubs.."

    I've done road course laps in a paddle-shift M3 in outside of Toronto... Yes, the M3's tranny blows, but just the act of sitting there flipping the paddles was just silly to me (and everybody else there at that customer-appreciation track-day)... Torque converter or automated clutches, whatever you've got under the bellhousing, it's all AUTOMATIC, and it steps over my line of enjoyable experience because it removes too much from my control. It's not enhancing or assisting a driving control, it's flat-out replacing it. Big difference, and it crosses the line I believe when you're talking pure sporting experience.

    Hell nberry, if you REALLY want to optimize performance, and have a superior car, just hire a professional to drive your car for you.... I mean, all that counts is your car's performance, right? If you could automate ALL the controls to achieve better results, would you? If a little is good, isn't more better?

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    To hopefully put an end to the arguing, this came to me as I was having an off-forum chat with another member....

    What's more important, the journey or the destination?

    In my context, based upon what brings me enjoyment and satisfaction, paddle-shifts are a destination, and manual-shifting is the journey..

    But I'm sure there are those out there who, for whatever their reasons, find the paddles more fun and enjoyable than the old skills of clutching and rowing.. For them, the paddle-shift becomes the journey...

    You can claim "superior" in regard to elapsed times, but if that's the only dimension you hold performance cars to, you're missing the big picture and wasting time owning a Ferrari... Of course, I'm not saying that you're wasting time nberry, I'm just saying that there's more to your car than timeslips and terminal performance, I'm sure we can agree upon that...

    In the big picture, "superiority" is measured by more than a clock, and hence quite subjective... If it were not for SUBJECTIVE attributes, neither Porsche or Ferrari would exist as makers of street cars...

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    I suspect it depends on what was sporty when you grew up. I for one view the old manual gearbox in the same light as the pre-synchromesh gearbox.

    Manual gearbox = obsolete, soulless econobox.

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    Leawood911 said:
    - the PDK will eat clutches because drivers will abuse them like conventional automatics - which they are not.



    Doesn't make sense to me (but I'm not an expert). Since the shifts on my M3 SMG are extremely fast and _rev_matched_ perfectly (also computer-controlled/safeguarded), I was thinking it produced much less wear and tear compared to the inexactitudes and overworking of a manual. A computer actuated shift lever, clutch and throttle..., sounds like it can do a better job of "conservation" than a human foot, leg and arm?

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    The initial post asked the question if PDK would be faster than manual and indicated that the times given by Porsche for manual could not be duplicated.

    Your point regarding which is more fun is subjective and would be answered differently by what the persons goal is. To many Porsche owners shifting is more fun because they have not experience a true PDK system. When Ferrari came out with the F1 many purists complained. Today, over 90% of Ferrari's are ordered with F1. Those that got manual have a hell of a time selling their car. Why? Because the F1 is a blast to drive and manual IS OLD TECHNOLOGY.

    I have no doubt that since you are so skilled at manual shifting you enjoy it more. Very understandable. But let me conclude by relaying a story involving Dave Murrey and Hurley Haywood both top factory drivers for Porsche.

    I rode with both as they raced around Road Atlanta racing one another in manual Porsche's. After the races I asked each what their perfect Porsche would be. Hurley said "Turbo with Tip" and Murrey said "Boxster S with Tip".

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    The initial post asked the question if PDK would be faster than manual and indicated that the times given by Porsche for manual could not be duplicated.

    Your point regarding which is more fun is subjective and would be answered differently by what the persons goal is. To many Porsche owners shifting is more fun because they have not experience a true PDK system. When Ferrari came out with the F1 many purists complained. Today, over 90% of Ferrari's are ordered with F1. Those that got manual have a hell of a time selling their car. Why? Because the F1 is a blast to drive and manual IS OLD TECHNOLOGY.

    I have no doubt that since you are so skilled at manual shifting you enjoy it more. Very understandable. But let me conclude by relaying a story involving Dave Murrey and Hurley Haywood both top factory drivers for Porsche.

    I rode with both as they raced around Road Atlanta racing one another in manual Porsche's. After the races I asked each what their perfect Porsche would be. Hurley said "Turbo with Tip" and Murrey said "Boxster S with Tip".



    Conclusion:

    Rich old farts get lazy and love automatics... (that also explains the Ferrari sales trends...)

    Anyhoo, you guys make me laugh with your techno-obsessions... You'll be the ones extolling the virtues of your new electric cars that have the ability to play engine sounds from 1,000 different historic samples over the stereo speakers, while I'm smelling the sweet odor of 110-octane leaded wafting out of my old Ford hemi's shaking exhaust pipes...

    Groom, nberry, you fellas need some romance in your lives

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Nick,

    I will jump in here since I had a chance to drive press M3 with M-DKG(M-DCT in English aka DSG from BMW) and I was really supriesed. It does everything right but at the same time it kills the sheer driving and control experience. Belive me this BMW M-DKG is light years better then Ferrari F1 in your F430 or even Superfast in Scuderia. It mimics at the same time excellent autobox(Aston DB9s for example) and sequential manual(Superfast in Scuderia). My personal observation is that this gearbox does everything right but... I would do some things differently with manual! Bipping the throttle on every downshifts is simply said idi0tic thing. Why? Imagine yourself driving in town and your DSG is bipping the throttle on almost every downshift. When you drive in full attack mode this M-DKG is 99% as good as it gets... 1% remain for removal of sheer driving pleasure. It is faster the manual in average hands. BUT it removes something from driving experince-just my humble opinion. AI in M-DKG is also having its own moods so, sometimes gearbox actually request different driving style then the one you used to...
    Honestly, as much as I was impressed at first my opinion about it is NOT for me. I hope that my impression would give some clue about forthcoming PDK from Porsche. For Tiptronic lovers it is a must. For manual lovers it is NOT.

    Also one interesting fact from VAG-about 95% of buyers of DSG equiped cars NEVER use paddles to shift gears. They use D programm... I think that this fact speaks for itself...

    About 90% of Ferrari's today are indeed equiped with F1... Just another fact is also that 99% of F1 equiped Ferrari's have around 4000km's on clock maximally... Otherwise this stupid sequential manual could die... I know four(!) owners of BMW M6, Ferrari F430(2) and Lamborghini Gallaro who killed their sequential manuals in first 10000km's... Just ask zzboba here how reliable his F430F1 was(he was actually driving his car a lot! Unlike most F430 owners...)?
    Sequential manuals are in general NOT reliable enough...

    What about DSG, S-Tronic, M-DKG or PDK? Are these DSG gearboxes reliable? Only time will tell...

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Also one interesting fact from VAG-about 95% of buyers of DSG equiped cars NEVER use paddles to shift gears. They use D programm... I think that this fact speaks for itself...




    What a surprise...

    I rest my case, and stand by my prior conclusion....

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    KresoF1 I cannot comment on the authenticity of the study that 95% use the DSG in D but if true I can provide an explanation. 95% of the time you are NOT in race or high performance mode. Your sitting in traffic or cruising.

    Because I take my 430 out for entertainment and not commuting, I have yet driven my car in D and I have 12,000 miles on my car.

    Regarding reliability, here I will agree with you to this extent. I have not had any problems with F1. However, the wear is quicker than manual. If you drive in city exclusively the F1 has a life span of about 20-25,000 miles. If a combination of city and highway more toward 30,000.

    However since most do not reach those mileage limits, it is not an issue. Should they do so, the fix is about $5000.

    I guess it is an individual preference but my prediction remains. Once Porsche introduces the PDK, the manual in Porsche will go the way of the manual in Ferrari.

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    KresoF1 I cannot comment on the authenticity of the study that 95% use the DSG in D but if true I can provide an explanation. 95% of the time you are NOT in race or high performance mode. Your sitting in traffic or cruising.

    Because I take my 430 out for entertainment and not commuting, I have yet driven my car in D and I have 12,000 miles on my car.

    Regarding reliability, here I will agree with you to this extent. I have not had any problems with F1. However, the wear is quicker than manual. If you drive in city exclusively the F1 has a life span of about 20-25,000 miles. If a combination of city and highway more toward 30,000.

    However since most do not reach those mileage limits, it is not an issue. Should they do so, the fix is about $5000.

    I guess it is an individual preference but my prediction remains. Once Porsche introduces the PDK, the manual in Porsche will go the way of the manual in Ferrari.



    Hence my concerns about reliability! There is no way Porsche could have a decent PDK transmission that does not last 200K miles go into a 911! To 'fix' it every 20K (or 60K) miles for $5K would be a big deal killer.

    Human use of a clutch will always cause less wear especially once rolling and shifting into higher gears at highway speeds etc. A little slipage to get rolling is nothing compared to shifting from 5-6 at 70 mph and allowing excess slip like the PDK will. Sorry, but even with perfect rev matching etc. the seat of the pants feeling a human can use will always be smoother and cause less wear.
    IMHO there is the problem, while the PDK may be quick it will never be as smooth when you want it to be. Nor as brutal on those rare times when you need it to be. In either case I think the net result will be unacceptable reliability and short life-spans for the internal clutches.

    Maybe we need an 'optional' clutch so that we can let PDK shift when racing (or being braindead) and use the clutch (de-activate PDK) when you want to have fun (i.e. enjoy the journey) or extend the life of your clutch. Use the paddle shifters like a sequential manual if you must get rid of the h-pattern but leave me a real clutch. That would be ideal.

    P.S. I too love the smell of 110 octane - there is nothing like it.


    (And yes I do realize the 997TT does not have launch control but the instructions for optimal launch for the 997TT are not possible in the 996TT- that's what I meant)

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    I never drive my sequential Aston in D, the computer cannot guess what gear I will need to be in 1 second... If you don't anticipate, there will always be a delay for the gear to be selected, regardless as fast it can shift.

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Nick,

    I will jump in here since I had a chance to drive press M3 with M-DKG(M-DCT in English aka DSG from BMW) and I was really supriesed. It does everything right but at the same time it kills the sheer driving and control experience. Belive me this BMW M-DKG is light years better then Ferrari F1 in your F430 or even Superfast in Scuderia. It mimics at the same time excellent autobox(Aston DB9s for example) and sequential manual(Superfast in Scuderia). My personal observation is that this gearbox does everything right but... I would do some things differently with manual! Bipping the throttle on every downshifts is simply said idi0tic thing. Why? Imagine yourself driving in town and your DSG is bipping the throttle on almost every downshift. When you drive in full attack mode this M-DKG is 99% as good as it gets... 1% remain for removal of sheer driving pleasure. It is faster the manual in average hands. BUT it removes something from driving experince-just my humble opinion. AI in M-DKG is also having its own moods so, sometimes gearbox actually request different driving style then the one you used to...
    Honestly, as much as I was impressed at first my opinion about it is NOT for me. I hope that my impression would give some clue about forthcoming PDK from Porsche. For Tiptronic lovers it is a must. For manual lovers it is NOT.

    Also one interesting fact from VAG-about 95% of buyers of DSG equiped cars NEVER use paddles to shift gears. They use D programm... I think that this fact speaks for itself...

    About 90% of Ferrari's today are indeed equiped with F1... Just another fact is also that 99% of F1 equiped Ferrari's have around 4000km's on clock maximally... Otherwise this stupid sequential manual could die... I know four(!) owners of BMW M6, Ferrari F430(2) and Lamborghini Gallaro who killed their sequential manuals in first 10000km's... Just ask zzboba here how reliable his F430F1 was(he was actually driving his car a lot! Unlike most F430 owners...)?
    Sequential manuals are in general NOT reliable enough...

    What about DSG, S-Tronic, M-DKG or PDK? Are these DSG gearboxes reliable? Only time will tell...




    /uploads/429704-ferrarioutoforder.gif

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    This whole speed shifting thing in a Porsche escapes me. If you want to drag race, get a muscle car or build yourself a street racer. As Boss 69 states, it seems that the major element-or at least one major element--of a sports car is driver involvement and learning and mastering shifting, rev matching, apexes, etc, etc. The fixation on top 0-60 times seems silly to me. Similar to my Landruiser club buddies that want to add stiffer sway bars, turbo chargers etc to get better acceleration and cornering. I don't own a Landcruiser for its sportiness, and I don't own a Porsche for its drag racing prowess.

    But, that's what makes the world and this forum so interesting. The different thoughts and ideas that the individual members have.

    Transmission technology...

    The manual gearbox clearly provides a great combination of performance, flexibility, feedback, reliability and reward for driving enthusiasts...

    The PDK/DSG technology clearly offers advantages over auto transmissions and semi-auto manuals, e.g. SMG, F1, etc...

    Indeed, the new Nissan GT-R 6-speed dual-clutch transmission has a total shift time of 0.2sec, which might sound slow compared to the Scuderia's reported 0.06sec... but it's worth noting that the Borg Warner clutch pack is designed for a 155,000-mile life, compared to a Ferrari's 6,000-8,000 miles before the F1 gearbox needs a new clutch!

    "The six-speed GR6 transaxle was developed especially for the GT-R, partly because it's hooked up to a high-revving engine... Developed partly by Borg Warner, which supplied the very compact clutch pack (designed for a 155,000-mile life), synchromesh and electronic control unit, each transmission is built by a single engineer working in a 'clean room'. The electronic traction control and limited-slip diff are integrated into the transmission casing."

    From Porsche's perspective, the PDK will obviously replace the Tiptronic - improving both performance and fuel economy - while the manual transmission is expected to remain the preference for many driving enthusiasts. We may also see Porsche offer the GT2's "launch control" on other future manual transmissions...

    The sequential racing gearbox in Porsche's RS Spyder uses a paddle-shift on track, but also has a clutch pedal available for lower speed manoeuvres, stall prevention, or if you just wanna' blip that throttle... now that sounds like a great application of technology!

    So it seems that PDK/DSG technology will certainly replace autos and semi-auto/auto-manual transmissions, but the manual gearbox and clutch pedal will continue to be enjoyed by enthusiastic Porsche drivers for many years!


    Re: Transmission technology...

    I remember a Röhrl interview in which he advocated having a clutch pedal in production PDK cars as well. I guess we won't have much longer to wait to find out.

    Re: Transmission technology...

    Although i really like DSG, but a manual 911 would provide a great and classic feeling.

    PDK BY WIRE! and more

    Perhaps some day you'll be able to order a car with a drive-by-wire manual tranny (really a PDK in disguise).

    Underneath you'll find a PDK clutch and gearbox. In the footwell you'll find a clutch pedal that's attached to a wire and a throttle that can be programed to give non-RPM matched inputs to engine if driver wants to do that.

    There will be settings for tardy clutch, or too-much-too-little revving for throttle in downshift mode.

    Of course when driver wants to win a drag race, or shift in a turn, or make the fastest laps of the day the computer can take over and offer full _paddle_actuated_ PDK mode.

    Center console has interchangeable shift levers. You can choose anything from a spindle-y original VW beetle unit all the way up to a Hurst Shifter for a Ponnyak GTO. Six various shift levers choices are stored in a fine leather case on under back window.

    Hopefully by that time we'll also be able to order the "Engine Music" option where you can choose digital exhaust system sounds simulating F1, Ford V8, CGT, Jet Turbine, and the old PSE, which are piped thru the car's sound system and coordinated with throttle inputs.

    An aftermarket _exterior_ speaker system, with mega-bass will be possible but illegal in most states. Stock system will NOT generate exterior exhaust sound; can be defeated by Russian mafia if aftermarket exterior megaphones are required by the particular personality disorder of the driver.


    PDK vs Manual

    What a fantastic thread. One of the most involving I've read in quite a while. Thanks.

    [I don't think I'll ever learn to write like 69bossnine. His style is simply priceless].

    You know, one of the most 'fulfilling' drives (NB nberry: by that I mean 'thrilling' and 'satisfying', not 'special') I have ever been on was when I was really pushing my 997 C2S on twisting A and B roads in North Wales back in March 2007. I was alone. Just me and my car with very little luggage. Crisp, precise gear changes, amazing grip, perfect handling/steering and throttle response. I really felt at one with my car that day. I think the 997 C2S was made for drives like that on twisting mountain/country roads. It's memories like those that keep the flame burning inside me.

    I think I would miss that if I switched to PDK.

    For me, the only attraction of PDK is that it would make driving easier in city traffic and can flatter one when doing a 0-60 drag race from the traffic lights.

    I do care about the strain a 90 minute drive in appalling nose-to-tail London traffic puts on me. But I don't do drag races against wannabees at the traffic lights so I don't care for that benefit that PDK might give.

    Just my 2p (I'm British )

    Re: PDK vs Manual

    In sharp contrast (car-wise), I've been putting alot of miles on my 1967 Pontiac GTO over the last month... It's a 400 H.O. 4-speed, factory Hurst shifter.... Man, it's part of the experience, it makes the car, I can't imagine grinning as widely, and having such an enjoyable experience EVERYWHERE I go, errands in town or out in the boondocks, without being able to constantly "play" with the car, and engage that power by myself, mechanically through my own foot, with each gear-change... I don't even perceive that it's a "bother", and who gives a damn about technology if it's not providing me increased pleasure or satisfaction or control on some level.

    I'll never be one to get a stiffy over technology for the sake of technology alone.... Just read a letter in my new C&D where some geek is slamming Chevy because the new ZR-1 has "archaic pushrods"... Hmmmm, ability to fit enormous displacement into compact package, efficient, durable, effective.... What the hell does that car need an overhead cam engine for, just so you could SAY it did and be smug in your advancement? I'd bet you dollars to donuts that thimble-head would sacrifice 100hp and 5mpg and 50,000 miles of durability just so that he could have a "more advanced" OHC engine.

    Some technology continues to give us better and better cars... But some of it continues to erode our ability to control and feel directly-connected to the machine... Instead of driving the car, you're instructing the car...

    Anyhoo, this has been an interesting thread!

    Re: 0-60 PDK vs. Manual. Big difference?

    what i find i tend to do is to dip the clutch more in 1-2, than i do in 2-3, 3-4 etc ... probably due to the 'feel factor' of 1-2 as described in this thread, but a habit you can tune out of with a little conscious over-riding.

    Re: PDK BY WIRE! and more

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    drive-by-wire manual tranny



    Oh noes, the fly-by-wire is enough 'wire' for me! Not in my cars too plix

     
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