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    Wait list thoughts for 430 in US

    The following was posted on Ferrarichat. Any thoughts?

    I think when you speculate on "the list", you have to realize that there are two lists. The coupe list will probably be a couple of years. If you are thinking about a coupe, there are some other choices out there. The other list is the spider list. If you are like me, I only want a spider. A ragtop buyer doesn't have as many choices out there. I believe the spider list will continue to be four years ++. I also speculate that some dealers will transfer the 360 buyers to the 430 list EXCEPT all the dealers have buyers that have been buying F cars from them for many years. Those preferred buyers will go to the head of the list and the rest of us will have a further wait. That's business and I have to live with it. I have been on the spider list since May 2002 and I bet I still have another 2-3 year wait. If and when I get tired of waiting, I will pay a premium for a 360 or 430. Until then I am enjoying my 355 spider.One would think that the boys in Italy would figure out a way to produce and sell more spiders and increase their bottom line. The lack of spiders only helps speculators and doesn't do anything to help the Fiat group.
    PS- this is usually only in the USA

    Re: Wait list thoughts for 430 in US

    Hey lapeter, what's the meaning of premium price...you pay more and you get the car sooner???This thing is common for Ferrari or more Manafacturers do this??

    Woshhhhhhhh...

    Re: Wait list thoughts for 430 in US

    All depends where one lives/status at local dealer/willingness to write check to broker to source car/build spot. In major mkts (Greenwich/SF/LA), dealers have bigger allocations, but dealers also have highest concentrations of serial, high-frequency F buyers. In minor mkts, the fewer spots may have less powerful local buyer base, but industrious brokers may have relationships w/dealers to source cars/build spots for impatient buyers willing to write a check today....fairly simple game in my view.....

    Re: Wait list thoughts for 430 in US

    My thoughts are as follows. First, Lapeter is right about a few points. The order list for the 360 got to crazy levels. Depending on which part of the USA you lived depended on how much longer either the coupe or spyder list were. At one point the list was about 4 to 5 years. The first thought that Ferrari dealers had was to have seperate lists for the coupe and the spyder, then dealers just merged the lists.
    One thing Lapeter should realize that once both the coupe and the spyder are available. Ferrari switches the mix from more coupes being brought to the USA than spyders. Once the spyder is available Ferrari sends the USA more spyders than coupes. At that time the spyder list stays pretty level and the coupe list grows in length of time.
    The problem that happened with the 360 is no dealer expected what happened with supply and demand. Ferrari does not worry as they sell every car they build before it is even made.
    The big problem I see is what happens now? What do dealers do with the people that have ordered the 360 and are still waiting for their car now that it is apparent that they will not get the 360 as Ferrari will be stopping production soon? What do dealers do with the people that have already requested to be on the list for the F430 even before we ever knew what it was going to be called? Now we have a big problem as buyers. Demand for the 360 has not been filled and there is a growing demand for the new F430 and dealers don't even know what they are going to get as their allocation.
    So, this brings us back to lapeter's question on the wait list. This is going to be a problem as I can see if you do not already have a relationship with your Ferrari dealer and have also told your dealer to put you on the list for the next Ferrari V8. The other problem is as it gets difficult to get what you want, we as consumers try the only way we can which is to order a Ferrari from several different dealers and hope for the best. Then comes the next problem. in a capitalistic environment where demand is so much higher than supply we as consumers get the chance to profit short term by either selling the cars we ordered and don't take and or driving our cars for a period of time and then sell for either a profit or what we bought it for.
    I hope Ferrari helps solve this problem, though I don't think they will.
    Please tell me what some of your thoughts out there are? Safe and Happy Driving many Thanks.

    Re: Wait list thoughts for 430 in US

    paulorangelmelo- I agree that is commom to pay a higher price to get a car sooner. My other challenge is that I want a certain color/options package and I really haven't seen what I want on the resale market. I guess if I didn't have my 355, I might be more antsy. I live in snow county and my Ferrari usage is May to end of Sept. We winter in Maui and an Ferrari there is a waste IMHO.

    Re: Wait list thoughts for 430 in US

    Arunk- Re- ordering from various dealers. At least in the US all the dealers send their list to Ferrari and Ferrari checks for persons on more than one list/dealer. If the dealer finds you on more than one list, my dealer states he will remove that person from the list. The impression I got was that most dealers do the same. It's really interesting to me how this whole process works. Again- if I were Ferrari, I would figure out how to fill the orders. The V8's are not collector cars so what does it matter if they build 4000 a year or 6000 as long as the quality remain the same.

    Re: Wait list thoughts for 430 in US

    I agree with you completely. Ferrari did not used to check for duplicate orders. They do now. But, I know of people that get friends to put in orders under their names to avoid this issue. And again this adds to the problem of availability. I also agree with you that Ferrai should build more cars. You are right that V8s are not collectible and Ferrari should produce more of them to solve this unreasonable demand supply issue.

    Re: Wait list thoughts for 430 in US

    Quote:
    ArunK said:
    You are right that V8s are not collectible and Ferrari should produce more of them to solve this unreasonable demand supply issue.



    And thereby incur the wrath of that mighty Pope of Exclusivity, Nick Berry?

    No way, Giuseppe!

    Re: Wait list thoughts for 430 in US

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    [And thereby incur the wrath of that mighty Pope of Exclusivity, Nick Berry?

    No way, Giuseppe!



    Correct me if I'm wrong but I recently read somewhere that Ferrari has built a total of 16000 360 models up til now.
    16000 pieces...doesn't sound much like an exclusive item if you ask me. First I thought it might be a typo, maybe 1600 or so. But 16000...ouch.

    Re: Wait list thoughts for 430 in US

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Correct me if I'm wrong but I recently read somewhere that Ferrari has built a total of 16000 360 models up til now.
    16000 pieces...doesn't sound much like an exclusive item if you ask me.


    That would just make it another case of Nick getting his facts wrong.

    Quote:
    RC said:
    First I thought it might be a typo, maybe 1600 or so. But 16000...ouch.


    Why should that surprise you?

    Re: Wait list thoughts for 430 in US

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    ArunK said:
    You are right that V8s are not collectible and Ferrari should produce more of them to solve this unreasonable demand supply issue.



    And thereby incur the wrath of that mighty Pope of Exclusivity, Nick Berry?

    No way, Giuseppe!



    Your damn right! But consider for a moment the fiqures you cite. If true (I believe it is closer to 13,000) this car has been in production since 1999 which is 6 years. Now assume North America ( for my European friends this includes Canada and Mexico) receives 40-50% of the allotments. The mix between Spiders and Coupes is about 50%.

    Factor that out and here is what you get using 16,000 cars and 40% allocation.:

    Coupes in N. America OVER A SIX year period 3200 cars

    Spiders in N. America 3200.

    Now what does Porsche produce A MONTH ? 2-3000 cars

    You wonder why Porsche resale values drop like a rock once they are out of the showroom floor?

    Re: Wait list thoughts for 430 in US

    Nick,

    I agree, Porsche is at fault for declining resale values - but here's the kicker, I'm willing to deal with that because I can actually go out and get any 911 I want without dealing with paying over MSRP and without silly waiting lists where your position is determined by how good you are to the dealer.

    I'm glad Ferrari exists, and I don't mind the way they do business too much (except that it means my 430 won't be here until 2006) but damnit man don't encourage Porsche to do the same

    I can put up with Ferrari's way of doing business only because Porsche doesn't do business that way, so at least the rest of my cars can get here without any of the silliness I described above.

    Let Ferrari be Ferrari and let Porsche be Porsche, it's good for competition and for us. That being said, I wouldn't mind if Ferrari made a few more 430s, I'm sick of dealers having all the power in the world when it comes to Ferraris. We, the customers, need some more power in this equation don't you think?

    Re: Wait list thoughts for 430 in US

    But finish the math. 3200 Cars for 6 years is how many a year? Answer on average 533 cars per year. Now one thing I do not agree with is 50% coupes and 50% spyders. I believe it is more like 40% coupes and 60% spyders in the end. Ferrari sends more coupes for the first two years and then the remaining 4 years you see many more spyders than coupes. But to keep things simple. Let us use your numbers.
    Which brings us back to 533 cars a year for the 360 coupe and for the Future F430 coupe. So I do not believe that 533 coupe cars a year is mass production. I also think if it was increased by 30% that this would hurt Ferrari. This means 693 coupe cars per year and 4160 cars for total production and then add the spyder as the same number which means 8320 cars for the USA total and 20,800 worldwide.
    How many 996 did Porsche build in a year? What is the percentage of 996 in it's body style or numbers built in each body style( Coupe, Cab, Targa, etc)? On any given day I see far more 996s then 360s.
    But the real deal is this demand far exceeds supply that it is unbelievable. Just a 30% increase would do a lot for Ferrari's clientle especially as Ferrari has gone into new markets in the last several years.

    Re: Wait list thoughts for 430 in US

    Quote:
    Raz (NC) said:
    Nick,

    I agree, Porsche is at fault for declining resale values - but here's the kicker, I'm willing to deal with that because I can actually go out and get any 911 I want without dealing with paying over MSRP and without silly waiting lists where your position is determined by how good you are to the dealer.

    I'm glad Ferrari exists, and I don't mind the way they do business too much (except that it means my 430 won't be here until 2006) but damnit man don't encourage Porsche to do the same

    I can put up with Ferrari's way of doing business only because Porsche doesn't do business that way, so at least the rest of my cars can get here without any of the silliness I described above.

    Let Ferrari be Ferrari and let Porsche be Porsche, it's good for competition and for us. That being said, I wouldn't mind if Ferrari made a few more 430s, I'm sick of dealers having all the power in the world when it comes to Ferraris. We, the customers, need some more power in this equation don't you think?



    Raz, I would argue the car-buying/ownership experience is very dealer relationship-dependant, no matter what brand of car. Whenever a dealer has a "hot" car, a smart dealer w/a long-term business sense tries to reward customers who have done substantial business w/dealer in past and are likely to do significant future business, esp when economy is less robust/brand doesn't have hot car. I can recall various times when 996TT, SL55 and M5 were each "impossible" to get and trading at absurd premiums over MSRP....and stories abounded of obnoxious P, MB and BMW dealers essentially raping customers...sound familiar? And, though 360 has been a brilliant success for F, from what I understand, in '95 FoSF had 6-8 new red 355Spiders sitting on lot, looking for a home; so, even F probably knows a marketing disaster like CGT/GT2/Gallardo is always possible w/any car that enough drivers can't drive (CGT)/a car egregiously priced (GT2)/excessive production of even a great car (Gallardo)/difficult economy.....it's always a delicate balance of producing enough cars to maximize revenue, while avoiding brand dilution and dismal resale values and preserving future ability to sell $200K+ cars.

    I know many guys w/great relationships w/their local F, P and MB dealers...and they seem to get their "hot" cars at MSRP reasonably promptly, etc......but it all goes back to relationships.....just like getting an "impossible" table on short notice at a great/hot NYC/LV restaurant or nightclub...

    Re: Wait list thoughts for 430 in US

    Quote:
    Raz (NC) said:
    Nick,

    I agree, Porsche is at fault for declining resale values - but here's the kicker, I'm willing to deal with that because I can actually go out and get any 911 I want without dealing with paying over MSRP and without silly waiting lists where your position is determined by how good you are to the dealer.

    I'm glad Ferrari exists, and I don't mind the way they do business too much (except that it means my 430 won't be here until 2006) but damnit man don't encourage Porsche to do the same

    I can put up with Ferrari's way of doing business only because Porsche doesn't do business that way, so at least the rest of my cars can get here without any of the silliness I described above.

    Let Ferrari be Ferrari and let Porsche be Porsche, it's good for competition and for us. That being said, I wouldn't mind if Ferrari made a few more 430s, I'm sick of dealers having all the power in the world when it comes to Ferraris. We, the customers, need some more power in this equation don't you think?



    Good points!Basically I am undermining my position by making Porsche purchasers look to Ferrari as an alternative.I really do not mean to do that.

    I want Porsche to strike a better balance with its production and product models. I still believe German engineering is the best in the world and hope Porsche as a company reverses course and become an exclusive sport company.

    Their products though excellent performers are stale in design and originality. Many believe this is an attribute. I think otherwise. They say form follows function. I believe it is much more..it should be "the function created or organized its form" The difference is sutle but it is manifested in the look of a Ferrari and the look of a Porsche.

    Finally Porsche intends to have a Porsche in every garage. What does that mean to Porsche and the buyer of a Porsche? Good for the company; bad for the buyer. What does that say about the company?

     
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