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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    kingjr9000:

    From lambo power: Heard today from my McLaren friends that the 650S replacement code named P14 being shown at Geneva 2017 will have 720PS or 710 HP (SAE) and be faster than the 675LT! 

     

    All i'm going to say, is that competitors better hope that the 720 isn't as underrated as the 570s is.  If it puts down 700 at the wheels like the 570 puts down 535 at the wheels, and weights as much as the LT, then this thing is going to be in baby hypercar territory.  They've already said its faster than the 675lt which is said to put down 0-300=22 secs, then imagine the traps and lap times of this thingSmiley.  Side note: could this be the car that was rumored to be faster than the P1?Smiley


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:
    MKSGR:

    I am very excited to learn more about the P14 - could be a very good car Smiley

    If McLaren doesn't run out of money Smiley, they could indeed put even more pressure on the super sportscar market.

    Don't forget one thing: McLaren is in the UK and the UK will leave the EU. For a small manufacturer like McLaren, this could actually break their neck in the process. Smiley Their profit has never been stellar anyway and new models cost a lot of money to develop, market and maintain.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     

    True - on the other hand the exchange rate will help them sell at reasonable margins Smiley


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    So what happens if the GBP climbs strongly at some point in the future? 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I sure hope McLaren finally modify the 12C platform for the 700 series. 

    If not, it will just be a P1 sans hybrid.

    But from talking to Frank, he describe it as a new exciting direction for McLaren, away from the 12C/650/675/P1.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Whoopsy:

    I sure hope McLaren finally modify the 12C platform for the 700 series. 

    If not, it will just be a P1 sans hybrid.

    But from talking to Frank, he describe it as a new exciting direction for McLaren, away from the 12C/650/675/P1.

     

    This could be bad news for the competition but also bad news for McLaren if they cannot stem this "new exciting direction" financially. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:
    Whoopsy:

    I sure hope McLaren finally modify the 12C platform for the 700 series. 

    If not, it will just be a P1 sans hybrid.

    But from talking to Frank, he describe it as a new exciting direction for McLaren, away from the 12C/650/675/P1.

     

    This could be bad news for the competition but also bad news for McLaren if they cannot stem this "new exciting direction" financially. Smiley

    Obviously they can or they wouldn't be doing it.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:

    So what happens if the GBP climbs strongly at some point in the future? 

    That would be a problem then, of course. However, I expect very bad years for the UK. Their politicians will do their best to kill the economy. For the years to come the GBP will probably remain on a very low level or even decrease further, reflecting the poor economic future ahead.

    P.S.: I read yesterday that TESCO even started delisting products because the import prices would be too high for their customers...


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    MKSGR:
    RC:

    So what happens if the GBP climbs strongly at some point in the future? 

    That would be a problem then, of course. However, I expect very bad years for the UK. Their politicians will do their best to kill the economy. For the years to come the GBP will probably remain on a very low level or even decrease further, reflecting the poor economic future ahead.

    P.S.: I read yesterday that TESCO even started delisting products because the import prices would be too high for their customers...

    That was just a minor tussle between manufacturer Unilever and supermarket Tesco. Unilever wanted to be the advance guard in a campaign to raise prices due to the increased costs resulting from the slide in the value of the Pound, and raised its wholesale prices by 10%.
    Tesco pushed back by delisting Unilever prices in its online sales site initially. The whole thing lasted a day. They'll probably have met each other somewhere in the middle. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiNGA-oD3LA

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    @KresoF1, i recall you mentioning a while ago about a german mag doing a nurburging test on the LT, do you know what happened to it?  Is it still coming out?


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Should be in SA till end of the year.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Hmm...not trying to start something, but is it possible that the LT's time is in the trofeos?  I mean, if you take the times that have been put down between the 650s coupe and spider vs the Huracan, the H is generally either even or slightly faster.  The only times I've read the 650 being faster are "Officially" three time, but "Technically" two times since i can't find where the third source came from.  I'm not even going to consider the N-Ring time for both, since the Huracan had an ABS problem, and I don't even know what happened to the 650s since its even slower than the 12c.  On C&D's LL2015, the huracan was 1.7secs slower than the 650s (if the test was done in a similar fashion to the 2016 test, such as nearly each car had a different driver, then this is voided. But both were on trofeos presumably, since the huracan is always tracked on them), everything else is either a second or a couple of tenths.

    Once you throw in the SV which probably has a bigger disadvantage due to weight, tranny, and tires, but the difference is usually a second, except for willow springs (0.4secs).  Then once you swap in the 675LT, the difference flips.  Then the LT is generally half a second to a full second faster than the SV, even in the hands of customers (salomondrin.  However, you could argue that most of his tests are voided since we have no idea about what state the tires are in, whether the suspensions been calibrated for that specific track, or whether they have the heaviest or lightest specs).  But do you think that once you get past the rawness, feel, and weight of the car, most of times come from the tires?  Do you think it is overhyped because of its low weight, while the SV and lambo in general are underestimated?  Because if you take C&D's SV test, the acceleration is essentially even at 300kph.

    Then I decided to compare the 650s coupe and spider to the LT.  On P-zeros, the 650s lapped the Sachsenring around 1:34, while the turbo s did it 1:32 on the same tire (you could argue its a shorter track, so it benefits the turbo s, unlike most other tracks where its generally a second slower).  Then they put the 650s on semi-slicks and it put down a 1:33, while the 675LT put down a 1:30.  Then theres willow springs where the 650s spider did a 1:25.8, and the LT a 1:24.2, But the spider had a hodgepodge set of tires, Pirelli "Assimetricos" in the rear and "Corsas" on the front.  But the funniest test, is actually the Sachsenring test of the 570s and the 650s.  The 570 is actually faster, than the 650 on that one track, despite the 650 being on corsas and semi-slicks.  Except for the willow springs test, they're nearly even.

    I would like to add in the 488 in light of the recent EVO test, but they too had different drivers, so that test is voided.  This is why I'm waiting for the LT nurburgring test, so we can compare them.  I would like some comments and opinions about this post and why these times are so close to each other, despite their differences.  Is it down to tires or just simple good engineering and chassis?  PS, noone1, please don't post this to mclife.  I don't want cause a nuclear firestorm over there and then have every post of mine flagged, treated as a troll, or just get generally insulted or mobbedsurprise.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    KresoF1:

    Should be in SA till end of the year.

    Thanks.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Personal experience:  a local track which I have been well known for years ; mid speed turns and one straight only: below figures all been driven by me:

    650S: Corsa: 1:58.52 (outside temp. around 38degree)

    650S: Cup2: 1:55.38 (outside temp. around 24degree) and this is the best of the best record I have.

    570S: new Corsa; had only 10 laps of my best of knowledge: 2:03.24 (outsdie temp. around 24degree)

    991.1turboS: PSS: 2:02.57 (outside temp. 30degree)

    675LT: T-R: 1:52.18 (outside temp. around 40degree) (friends car, and didn't dare to push it too hard, but I figure I can cut another second off if the temp isn't soo hot, and if this is my car....)

    From these experiences; LT to me is a complete different animal than 650S, not saying 650S is a bad car, but certainly the package what it offers is a better get in terms of value than 650S.   as for TurboS, its a very nice package for its price, but when diving into a corner, a 650S/LT does a better job than TurboS that's 100%for sure!!  TurboS is generally a moderate car does well on everything.  as for 570S and 650S are two different animals.  570S is less grippy at the back end, and more challage on corners, but I would say more fun than 650S.  So I find ur figure of 570S and 650S the same are very shocking, it must been different temp. or different conditions....    I am not sure about Hurrican, but I've driven side by side with another one, its subjective since different drivers involved, but I know it seems pushing its nose on tight corners, perhaps the driver isn't "diving" into the corner properly.    out of all these cars, I must say LT is by far the most amazing machine there is out there (other than 918,P1).  for its price, its a beautiful car to own out of that league.  

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Nice! A mac owner who isn't chewing my head off or insinuating something about me for daring to say the macca isn't as good as they think.  But yeah, I know the 570s is no match for the 650s in about 90-95% of tracking.  Thats why i specifically said that one track.  But in a few videos and some owner tests, the 570s is equally as quick in a drag as the 650s.  The 570s vs turbo s seems about normal, compared to most timed mags.  If the difference between cup2's and trofeos is what i think they are (from the research I've gathered), then on trofeos, your 650s should be nearly neck-to-neck with a 675LT...provided my guessing is right. I've never actually said the LT was a bad car as a complete package, but like I think the MT crew said at the end of their video, you would probably get equal times by buying a 650s, some track training, and a set of trofeos.  But you most likely won't get the same experience. 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Different Drivers , different conditions , different cars (I mean factory vs customer cars) etc - I just had yesterday a discussion with our local Ferrari dealer where a customer bought a presscar and he has driven various 488 and said that "his" car is shockingly different than any other 488 he drove. All in all Magazine numbers are close to being useless in my view and soley owners of those cars who have owned or extensively driven these cars are true validators. People reading magazines have no idea how a car "feels" and if it fits yr driving style and capabilities... - What I like are Group tests such as Evo or Car is doing where different People put their thoughts in - without comparing numbers.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    BjoernB:

    Different Drivers , different conditions , different cars (I mean factory vs customer cars) etc - I just had yesterday a discussion with our local Ferrari dealer where a customer bought a presscar and he has driven various 488 and said that "his" car is shockingly different than any other 488 he drove. All in all Magazine numbers are close to being useless in my view and soley owners of those cars who have owned or extensively driven these cars are true validators. People reading magazines have no idea how a car "feels" and if it fits yr driving style and capabilities... - What I like are Group tests such as Evo or Car is doing where different People put their thoughts in - without comparing numbers.

    Performance numbers only help with a decision but they should never be the only reason someone chooses a car.

    I would never exchange my R8 (here I said it again Smiley Smiley) for a 488(!) or a 650S. I could imagine exchanging my car for a 675LT though because everyone I talked to seems to praise this car in the highest tones and some of these people are not just your typical amateur drivers. I would miss the AWD though, this is why I would probably get an Aventador SV instead. Numbers are not everything (anymore), a car in this price class needs to provide more than excellent performance figures, it needs to suit the driver and provide him with the best fun possible. I found my perfect car for my financial possibilities but if I had unlimited funds (but the choice of one fun car only), it would be the 675LT or the Aventador SV, no doubt about it. Can't wait to see how the Huracan Performante and the Aventador facelift performs. Smiley The next McLaren generation will also be interesting for sure.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    BjoernB:

    Different Drivers , different conditions , different cars (I mean factory vs customer cars) etc - I just had yesterday a discussion with our local Ferrari dealer where a customer bought a presscar and he has driven various 488 and said that "his" car is shockingly different than any other 488 he drove. All in all Magazine numbers are close to being useless in my view and soley owners of those cars who have owned or extensively driven these cars are true validators. People reading magazines have no idea how a car "feels" and if it fits yr driving style and capabilities... - What I like are Group tests such as Evo or Car is doing where different People put their thoughts in - without comparing numbers.

    How much faster was it than the stock customer car?  Because the few customers who have timed their cars, say that its pretty much dead center to what fezza claims.  Although there was one guy on had who had a few problems, but he was able to get most of them sorted out with his dealer.  There are even a few mags where its slower than what they claim.  Heres one customer: 

    Now with vbox data:
    Kph
    +8 celcius
    Three times with nearly the same times.

    0-50 1,8 * sec  
    0-100 3,8 *
    100- 200 5,3
    100- 250 10,1 
    0- 250 13,9 *

    1/4 mile 11 sec *

    (*Coold tires and spin)

    Then theres this entire thread: 

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/458-italia-488/530478-488-vs-tuned-tts-monterey.html


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YOlNJrO5yM

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    As Whoopsy said, ladies and gentlemen, that is how good McLaren LC is. In dry conditions, the AWD advantage is barely anything.

    RC, you can keep your AWD drivetrain loss ;)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Indeed...

    Also, it shows thay 570S is only marginally faster then 991.2 Turbo S. And only faster above 180km/h.

    Imagine a wet road or autobahn... 570S would not have any chance against 991.2 Turbo S or R8 V10 Plus. That's the fact as well. Despite its awsome TC.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    KresoF1:

    Indeed...

    Also, it shows thay 570S is only marginally faster then 991.2 Turbo S. And only faster above 180km/h.

    Imagine a wet road or autobahn... 570S would not have any chance against 991.2 Turbo S or R8 V10 Plus. That's the fact as well. Despite its awsome TC.

    I totally agree Smiley


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    As Whoopsy said, ladies and gentlemen, that is how good McLaren LC is. In dry conditions, the AWD advantage is barely anything.

    RC, you can keep your AWD drivetrain loss ;)

    The McLaren TC is excellent but not excellent enough to cope with cold asphalt temperatures and semi-slicks. As a McLaren driver in Germany or the UK, I would always choose the PZero over the Corsa or Trofeo or whatever semi-slick, unless I would track my car often. 

    Drivetrain loss? Modern AWD systems like the one on the 991.2 Turbo S or 2nd gen R8 barely have a drivetrain loss, this isn't 1980 anymore. LOL The additional weight is a different story but usually, "only" around 50 kg at max.

    Many modern supercars are barely drivable under 150 kph because of major traction issues. Some call these issues fun, I call them dangerous, especially on public roads.

    On wet roads or in winter time with temps under 10 deg C, AWD systems are a treat. Actually, I often enjoy my R8 on wet roads because the AWD is so much fun but of course it can be deceiving as well. You can't beat physics but with AWD, I can "push" it further...even if in the end, I have to be much more careful than with a 2WD car.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    kiss


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    KresoF1:

    Indeed...

    Also, it shows thay 570S is only marginally faster then 991.2 Turbo S. And only faster above 180km/h.

    Imagine a wet road or autobahn... 570S would not have any chance against 991.2 Turbo S or R8 V10 Plus. That's the fact as well. Despite its awsome TC.

    But who goes full throttle to 125mph in the wet? You should have your license taken away if you do that on a public road.

    Some of you guys act like you're flying around wet bends at 90 mph. That's insane. Drive a mountain pass in the wet and hit a patch of wet leaves... no thanks.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    You should read what I wrote more carefully. First paragraph is about dry unrestriced autobahn in Germany.

    Second paragraph is about wet road or autobahn. 

    On wet autobahn even at 120km/h 991.2 Turbo S or R8 V10 Plus have way more traction then only RWD 570S. So, safety margin is bigger and that inspire more confidence. 

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:
    KresoF1:

    Indeed...

    Also, it shows thay 570S is only marginally faster then 991.2 Turbo S. And only faster above 180km/h.

    Imagine a wet road or autobahn... 570S would not have any chance against 991.2 Turbo S or R8 V10 Plus. That's the fact as well. Despite its awsome TC.

    But who goes full throttle to 125mph in the wet? You should have your license taken away if you do that on a public road.

    Some of you guys act like you're flying around wet bends at 90 mph. That's insane. Drive a mountain pass in the wet and hit a patch of wet leaves... no thanks.

    I think it is more that you often accelerate out of bends/corners. That's where AWD makes such a big difference. Even in the city a turbo s with AWD just feels so wonderful Smiley


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    MKSGR:
    noone1:
    KresoF1:

    Indeed...

    Also, it shows thay 570S is only marginally faster then 991.2 Turbo S. And only faster above 180km/h.

    Imagine a wet road or autobahn... 570S would not have any chance against 991.2 Turbo S or R8 V10 Plus. That's the fact as well. Despite its awsome TC.

    But who goes full throttle to 125mph in the wet? You should have your license taken away if you do that on a public road.

    Some of you guys act like you're flying around wet bends at 90 mph. That's insane. Drive a mountain pass in the wet and hit a patch of wet leaves... no thanks.

    I think it is more that you often accelerate out of bends/corners. That's where AWD makes such a big difference. Even in the city a turbo s with AWD just feels so wonderful Smiley

    This is where I usually leave my "adversaries" behind... Smiley Smiley Indeed, especially at lower speeds, AWD is amazing but like I said before, especially on wet roads, the AWD pushes boundaries further but can't beat physics, making it quite tricky at the limit.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:
    MKSGR:
    noone1:
    KresoF1:

    Indeed...

    Also, it shows thay 570S is only marginally faster then 991.2 Turbo S. And only faster above 180km/h.

    Imagine a wet road or autobahn... 570S would not have any chance against 991.2 Turbo S or R8 V10 Plus. That's the fact as well. Despite its awsome TC.

    But who goes full throttle to 125mph in the wet? You should have your license taken away if you do that on a public road.

    Some of you guys act like you're flying around wet bends at 90 mph. That's insane. Drive a mountain pass in the wet and hit a patch of wet leaves... no thanks.

    I think it is more that you often accelerate out of bends/corners. That's where AWD makes such a big difference. Even in the city a turbo s with AWD just feels so wonderful Smiley

    This is where I usually leave my "adversaries" behind... Smiley Smiley Indeed, especially at lower speeds, AWD is amazing but like I said before, especially on wet roads, the AWD pushes boundaries further but can't beat physics, making it quite tricky at the limit.

    Also, AWD creates fun by just giving you this feeling of perfection in these conditions Smiley


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    MKSGR:
    RC:
    MKSGR:
    noone1:
    KresoF1:

    Indeed...

    Also, it shows thay 570S is only marginally faster then 991.2 Turbo S. And only faster above 180km/h.

    Imagine a wet road or autobahn... 570S would not have any chance against 991.2 Turbo S or R8 V10 Plus. That's the fact as well. Despite its awsome TC.

    But who goes full throttle to 125mph in the wet? You should have your license taken away if you do that on a public road.

    Some of you guys act like you're flying around wet bends at 90 mph. That's insane. Drive a mountain pass in the wet and hit a patch of wet leaves... no thanks.

    I think it is more that you often accelerate out of bends/corners. That's where AWD makes such a big difference. Even in the city a turbo s with AWD just feels so wonderful Smiley

    This is where I usually leave my "adversaries" behind... Smiley Smiley Indeed, especially at lower speeds, AWD is amazing but like I said before, especially on wet roads, the AWD pushes boundaries further but can't beat physics, making it quite tricky at the limit.

    Also, AWD creates fun by just giving you this feeling of perfection in these conditions Smiley

    True but this is what also makes AWD so dangerous if you push it too far... My first AWD shock happened at age 19 or so...when I slipped over all four wheels in a curve right into a field. I was lucky, only some grass stuck to the tires/rims (we had to deflate the tires to remove it). This is when I learned that a good and safe feel doesn't mean anything, you can't beat physics (OK, that car had no ESP but still...). 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


     
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